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Why do people keep defending sugar?
Replies
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BTW, thinking things over:
You know one thing I think is really great about refined white sugar? That *baby-feline* keeps forever.
Once in a rare while, I want to make dessert, I may use a little cane sugar. Most recently (May 16), sweetened dessert was a (not hyper-sweet) whole-wheat rhubarb upside down cake. (It which was tasty, BTW - no way I'm eating rhubarb without sweetening it. Most of the cake is still in the freezer, portioned out.)
I have a tight-lid gallon glass jar in the back of my cupboard with refined white sugar in it. When it gets ultra-low, I buy a 5-pound bag, and dump it in there. That bag will last literally years, never have to think about it, doesn't degrade, tastes fine indefinitely, probably all the way to the zombie apocalypse.
I'd say I can't remember when I bought white sugar last, since it's probably been 5+ years since I refilled the jar and it's still got many cups of sugar in it, but I did buy a small fresh bag of vegan refined white sugar last fall, to make some pickled grapes, plus a slightly-sweet vinaigrette for some roasted root veggies, to take to a potluck I knew was going to include a strict vegan, in amongst a crowd of omnivores.
Affirmative defense of refined white sugar: Excellent choice to keep in your survival bunker.
Sugar is also a great preservative which is why many fruits are canned in sugar syrup and why you can just hot water bath home canned fruits. And sugar also works as a antibacterial treatment along with honey for wounds.
And wasn't there some sort of article a few years ago about finding a jar of honey from ancient Egypt that was still edible? It's been a long while, but I could be wrong.
So I'd say sugar is actually some pretty incredible stuff!6 -
tgillies003 wrote: »People defend sugar because they don’t have sufficient willpower to never eat sugar.
Personally, I live by the motto “anything in moderation is ok”.
So, it’s ok to have sugar once in awhile. Like, yesterday I ate three cookies and today is my husbands birthday and we will have birthday cake. But will we have refined sugar everyday? No. We don’t eat it everyday. We eat it in moderation in combination with a nutritious well balanced diet.
I'm really confused by the assertion that there are lots of people here who have the discipline to regularly meet their calorie goal to maintain a healthy weight, but *have* to keep defending sugar because they just can't face giving it up.
Is it even possible for you to consider that maybe we've realized over the years that eating some sugar in the context of a calorie-appropriate diet that is meeting nutritional goals isn't really an issue? People don't get bonus points in life for unnecessary restrictions, this is such a puritanical way to approach life.20 -
There is nothing to defend. It’s just food...7
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Well sugar like any subtsance would kill you if a one ton bag fell on you...7
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Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Sugar is merely a form of carbohydrate. Like any form of food (including protein and fat, water, alcohol) too much can be harmful.
Too many carrots can overload the body with vitamin A which is toxic in high amounts. Diet gummy bears I believe are rather unpleasant when taken in quantity.
There is nothing Inherently wrong or injurious with sugar - it just should not form the whole diet.
*edited by MFP moderator9 -
Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Is this a serious comment??
People are not dying from sugar
well, I guess a type 1 diabetic could go into diabetic coma and die if they ate massive amount and did not take their insulin. I knew somebody once who almost did that - was in ICU with BSL of 48 - but did recover.
But, most people can eat sugar in sensible amounts. Even diabetics can eat it in small amounts.
The issue is not sugar per se but over consumption leadng to obesity related diseases or, in case of diabetics, to diabetic complications.
Context. Dosage.
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paperpudding wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Is this a serious comment??
People are not dying from sugar
well, I guess a type 1 diabetic could go into diabetic coma and die if they ate massive amount and did not take their insulin. I knew somebody once who almost did that - was in ICU with BSL of 48 - but did recover.
But, most people can eat sugar in sensible amounts. Even diabetics can eat it in small amounts.
The issue is not sugar per se but over consumption leadng to obesity related diseases or, in case of diabetics, to diabetic complications.
Context. Dosage.
That's what I was thinking. If someone is deathly allergic to nuts, does it mean everyone should stop eating them? Special food requirements are unique to the person's condition, no need to advocate the same level of restriction for everyone.6 -
Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I’m diabetic. My a1c has been in normal range for three years now. Not the ADA approved “normal for a diabetic” range of under 7, it’s consistently under 5, like a normal person’s. I also eat sugar, in appropriate amounts, when appropriate. For example, during a long distance race, or when recovering from exercise.
All things have a time and a place, sugar among them. It’s just as bad to fall on your face as to bend too far and fall over backwards.17 -
purplebobkat wrote: »Carbs are a macro nutrient so how can you say they have no nutritional benefit?
That would be the same as saying fat has no nutritional benefit!
Maybe also consider that providing energy is a vital part of your diet which carbs (including sugar) do very well.
Actually I said sugar has no nutritional value. Carbs can be healthy, but sugar is not healthy. So why are so many defending it?
(Just curious)
So one of the things I don't see people talking about with sugar consumption side effects: 1. The fact that even if you lift and exercise regularly, particularly for endurance running, and use the sugar spike from a Gu to avoid hitting the Wall in a marathon, those people have done a total 180 on carbing up in the endurance running world because all of Tim Noakes' marathon runners got diabetes and heart muscle calcification. Even though they were able to stay very lean, there were side effects to the insulin response cycle, even though there weren't blood sugar problems. Even the vegan distance runners like Rich Roll don't consume processed sugar, for this particular reason. The conversation on fruit is even a bit tainted because we heavily cultivated it to maximize sweetness so even some fruits consumed in large quantities will give you way too much fructose. 2. The fact that sugar consumption has psychological impacts for most people. Normally people don't consume just sugar, it's paired with high calorie fats, and it normally evokes a dopamine spike in the brain. If you're creating that high spike in the happy effects of sugar on the regular, you run the risk of oversaturating a normal dopamine response, much like weed or cocaine or porn does. Effectively it means that regular task completion/dopamine reward cycles become less attractive.
I think people defend sugar consumption because in a normal community it is basically impossible to avoid completely, and people like sugar the way crack addicts like crack. Also it's cultural. I don't think anyone can objectively call sugar "good", as a judge of nutrition because of the insulin related side effects, even those advocating it in a mass-gain capacity. I think there are probably a lot of people on MFP who have been duped into thinking that calorie quality doesn't matter, that pure carbs without the micronutrients is still valuable: the other non-energy providing parts of the food could be a significant benefit, like micronutrients, fiber, or antioxidants, because most people aren't going to eat a spoonful of sugar unless it's a Gu, and foods DO have different nutritional uptakes and immediate hormonal impacts. Basically, if you absolutely need sugar at some point, you're always better off picking not a candy bar in the long term because macronutrients aren't the only nutritional element. There is always a nutritionally superior choice, while sugar is the nutritionally WORST choice you could make, but in a situation between choosing none and sugar, sugar MIGHT be better in a very small set of circumstances. Those circumstances are so small that they're negligible. The other argument being that you can't assign moral values to food and call them good or bad. This argument is illogical because you can assign a moral value judgement to consumption of food because you choose to consume food for a reason, and some foods are in line with your intentions and some aren't. The issue is you can't assign a moral value without taking into account intent and situation of the consumer, and you can generalize that most people, since most Western people are overweight, can't have a positive intent with sugar consumption because whatever emotional or cultural benefits they reap should be superseded by health in a moral value hierarchy, because physical health supersedes physical or social pleasure on an objective value scale. Put simply, if you eat sugar, and you're fat, you're harming your health, and that is bad, because the effects get compounded over time, since people make these choices repeatedly over time.2 -
paperpudding wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Is this a serious comment??
People are not dying from sugar
well, I guess a type 1 diabetic could go into diabetic coma and die if they ate massive amount and did not take their insulin. I knew somebody once who almost did that - was in ICU with BSL of 48 - but did recover.
But, most people can eat sugar in sensible amounts. Even diabetics can eat it in small amounts.
The issue is not sugar per se but over consumption leadng to obesity related diseases or, in case of diabetics, to diabetic complications.
Context. Dosage.
You conflated an instantaneous consequence with an average over time consequence, in order to call someone else dumb. People aren't talking about eating a lot of sugar once, they're talking about eating a lot of it over time, which would why diabetes is called a CHRONIC illness. Lol no one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US. Even taking into account the fact that the US nutrition has increased the RDA max for sugar, even a small Snickers bar is larger than the recommended daily allotment for sugar. Most people eat the whole Snickers bar. And your tolerance for sweetness increases; if you eat sugar regularly, you'll need to eat more over time to attain the same level of sweetness, which means eventually you will eat more sugar. When 2/3 of the population is overweight you have no argument.
*Edited by MFP moderator2 -
Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I am sorry for your losses. That is simply unimaginable.
As an infant, my son was diagnosed with galactosemia. It is a disease that prevents the body from processing galactose. Galactose is a toxin to the body which can cause liver failure, kidney failure, brain damage, cataracts, and death. Girls with the disease most often are unable to have children. It is easily treatable with a diet that eliminates all foods containing milk and dairy products. Since milk and dairy is so toxic to his body, it must be toxic to everyone. No. Gluten must be toxic to everyone since people who have celiac disease are affected by it. No. Some people are highly allergic to shellfish so everyone should avoid it. No.
People who have a disease or condition are different than average people. Most people can include dairy, gluten, shellfish, and sugar in their diet as part of an overall healthy diet and not have issues. Diabetes is a disease. Like any disease, failure to follow doctors orders or take the proper precautions does not have good outcomes. Using this as an example of why sugar is bad is a gross over-generalization.
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jdecker32356 wrote: »Lol no one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US. Even taking into account the fact that the US nutrition has increased the RDA max for sugar, even a small Snickers bar is larger than the recommended daily allotment for sugar. Most people eat the whole Snickers bar. And your tolerance for sweetness increases; if you eat sugar regularly, you'll need to eat more over time to attain the same level of sweetness, which means eventually you will eat more sugar. When 2/3 of the population is overweight you have no argument.
No one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US is a pretty sweeping comment. 2/3 of the population are overweight because they overeat. I eat very little sugar and yet, gasp, I became overweight. I became overweight because I ate too much of what others call "real" food. I don't particularly like pastries. I don't eat sugary cereal. I don't add sugar to my coffee or tea. I am not a big fan of candy. I don't drink soda. I don't add sugar to my home cooked meals. I do love bacon though. I also love pepperoni, sausage, and man do I love a big bowl of buttery popcorn. I adore anything spicy. Eating too much savory, fatty foods caused my weight gain. It had nothing to do with the amount of sugar I eat.20 -
debrakgoogins wrote: »jdecker32356 wrote: »Lol no one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US. Even taking into account the fact that the US nutrition has increased the RDA max for sugar, even a small Snickers bar is larger than the recommended daily allotment for sugar. Most people eat the whole Snickers bar. And your tolerance for sweetness increases; if you eat sugar regularly, you'll need to eat more over time to attain the same level of sweetness, which means eventually you will eat more sugar. When 2/3 of the population is overweight you have no argument.
No one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US is a pretty sweeping comment. 2/3 of the population are overweight because they overeat. I eat very little sugar and yet, gasp, I became overweight. I became overweight because I ate too much of what others call "real" food. I don't particularly like pastries. I don't eat sugary cereal. I don't add sugar to my coffee or tea. I am not a big fan of candy. I don't drink soda. I don't add sugar to my home cooked meals. I do love bacon though. I also love pepperoni, sausage, and man do I love a big bowl of buttery popcorn. I adore anything spicy. Eating too much savory, fatty foods caused my weight gain. It had nothing to do with the amount of sugar I eat.
Same here - not a big sweets eater but I can eat a jar of peanut butter, a bag of chips or a family size bowl of rice without giving it much thought. Same thing with just about any kind of meat. Not all people who are overweight got there from sugar consumption - in fact, I would bet that at least half of them got there the same route that I did.
Blaming all of our problems on sugar is ditching the responsibility and the root cause for the problems - our own lack of self control when it comes to shoving food into our pie holes.15 -
jdecker32356 wrote: »purplebobkat wrote: »Carbs are a macro nutrient so how can you say they have no nutritional benefit?
That would be the same as saying fat has no nutritional benefit!
Maybe also consider that providing energy is a vital part of your diet which carbs (including sugar) do very well.
Actually I said sugar has no nutritional value. Carbs can be healthy, but sugar is not healthy. So why are so many defending it?
(Just curious)
So one of the things I don't see people talking about with sugar consumption side effects: 1. The fact that even if you lift and exercise regularly, particularly for endurance running, and use the sugar spike from a Gu to avoid hitting the Wall in a marathon, those people have done a total 180 on carbing up in the endurance running world because all of Tim Noakes' marathon runners got diabetes and heart muscle calcification.
Who are Tim Noakes' marathon runners? I have heard his name before, I know he's very anti-carbohydrate, but I'm not sure what study this is referring to.
Who are "those people" who have done a "total 180"? There are still plenty of endurance athletes who are using carbohydrates to fuel and consuming sugar in the context of a diet that isn't providing excess calories.7 -
Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I'm sorry about your family. My grandmother had it too and I eat sugar in very unmoderated amounts and I'm fine. And old so it's had time to kick in.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Who are Tim Noakes' marathon runners? I have heard his name before, I know he's very anti-carbohydrate, but I'm not sure what study this is referring to.
I believe Tim Noakes is the coauthor of The Obesity Code...with Dr. Jason Fung. That explains just about everything we need to know about that argument.17 -
Have y'all ever read the community guidelines? I think it says play nice, be respectful, and stuff like that in there. Feel free to give them a read. Oh yeah, and no name calling please.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10701884/play-nice#latest
Thanks for your cooperation,
4legs
MFP volunteer moderator6 -
4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »Have y'all ever read the community guidelines? I think it says play nice, be respectful, and stuff like that in there. Feel free to give them a read. Oh yeah, and no name calling please.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10701884/play-nice#latest
Thanks for your cooperation,
4legs
MFP volunteer moderator
I'm allowed to call myself old!
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I love that someone felt the need to disagree that I gained weight eating savory and fatty foods. I don't have such an overwhelming need to prove that sugar isn't the enemy that I would make up stories about how my ars got so big. I've been here 7 years...trust me, I was fat when I started and it wasn't sweets. It was chicken bacon ranch pizza, pepperoni sticks (not the kind at the counter, the kind in the deli that weigh two pounds), bacon and good lord so much cheese. Why all the disagrees on responses by people who have been here years, lost their weight, maintained that loss and are saying that sugar is part of their overall healthy diet? Are we all lying? We have collectively invested a lot of years in setting up this particular lie if that is the case.15
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debrakgoogins wrote: »I love that someone felt the need to disagree that I gained weight eating savory and fatty foods. I don't have such an overwhelming need to prove that sugar isn't the enemy that I would make up stories about how my ars got so big. I've been here 7 years...trust me, I was fat when I started and it wasn't sweets. It was chicken bacon ranch pizza, pepperoni sticks (not the kind at the counter, the kind in the deli that weigh two pounds), bacon and good lord so much cheese. Why all the disagrees on responses by people who have been here years, lost their weight, maintained that loss and are saying that sugar is part of their overall healthy diet? Are we all lying? We have collectively invested a lot of years in setting up this particular lie if that is the case.
Long cons are the best cons. 5 -
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Pogostickers wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I'm sorry about your family. My grandmother had it too and I eat sugar in very unmoderated amounts and I'm fine. And old so it's had time to kick in.
Good Luck.
Somehow I don't think you mean that.
I believe the whole sugar causing diabetes thing has been debunked tho so....
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Pogostickers wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I’m diabetic. My a1c has been in normal range for three years now. Not the ADA approved “normal for a diabetic” range of under 7, it’s consistently under 5, like a normal person’s. I also eat sugar, in appropriate amounts, when appropriate. For example, during a long distance race, or when recovering from exercise.
All things have a time and a place, sugar among them. It’s just as bad to fall on your face as to bend too far and fall over backwards.
That is great for you if you can have it in your life.
You will not catch me eating refined sugar.
great! pass it to me and I'll enjoy it quite well in moderation. Well, me and the hummingbirds......6 -
Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I'm curious: Though there is not a tight link, it's fairly clear that high levels of saturated fat consumption are also significant contributors to the incidence of obesity, heart disease (perhaps via obesity), and probably even diabetes (also via obesity). There's also continuing debate about the role of O-3/O-6 balance, but some evidence that imbalance may have similar consequences (and certainly that excessive intake of either/both can lead to weight gain thus increase risks of obesity-connected disease).
Do you cut saturated fat out of your diet, and argue against it, in a way similar to what you're saying about sugar? Never eat it? Pay attention to O-3/O-6 balance?
I'm aware that the connection of sat fats to heart disease is not as direct as was once believed, but I think that's similar to the change in thinking (based on more recent research) regarding sugar and diabetes. I'm also aware that the O-6/O-3 balance issue continues to be a subject of research.
So, are sat fats and O-3/O-6 imbalance just as bad as sugar? Not as bad (why)? Worse (why?).
Truth in advertising: I eat small amounts of added sugar (generally well less than the WHO recommended max), moderate sat fat (in the 10-20g range, usually low to mid in that), and pay some but not obsessive attention to O-6/ O-3 balance, mostly by not taste-preferring common O-6 sources and consciously including O-3s.11 -
I don't know... because it's a socially accepted drug? 🤔1
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jdecker32356 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Is this a serious comment??
People are not dying from sugar
well, I guess a type 1 diabetic could go into diabetic coma and die if they ate massive amount and did not take their insulin. I knew somebody once who almost did that - was in ICU with BSL of 48 - but did recover.
But, most people can eat sugar in sensible amounts. Even diabetics can eat it in small amounts.
The issue is not sugar per se but over consumption leadng to obesity related diseases or, in case of diabetics, to diabetic complications.
Context. Dosage.
You conflated an instantaneous consequence with an average over time consequence, in order to call someone else dumb. People aren't talking about eating a lot of sugar once, they're talking about eating a lot of it over time, which would why diabetes is called a CHRONIC illness. Lol no one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US. Even taking into account the fact that the US nutrition has increased the RDA max for sugar, even a small Snickers bar is larger than the recommended daily allotment for sugar. Most people eat the whole Snickers bar. And your tolerance for sweetness increases; if you eat sugar regularly, you'll need to eat more over time to attain the same level of sweetness, which means eventually you will eat more sugar. When 2/3 of the population is overweight you have no argument.
*Edited by MFP moderator
I did what???
Where did I call anyone dumb???
Yes i gave an example of instant dying (almost dying in real case I gave) of instantaneous death by sugar.
Because that is really the only type of case eating sugar per se would cause death.
In all other cases it would be over consumption, not sugar per se.
People eating too much over time - that is what over consumption means.
and obesity, as has been pointed out by others, isnt just from over consumption of sugar - it is from over consumption of calories.
calories from various food sources, as people have given examples of.
In my own personal case, someone who eats quite a few sweet products (in portion controlled amounts - yay!! calorie counting!!) I have not noticed any need to eat more over time or any increased sugar amount needed to create same level of sweetness.
and I am over half a century old - I think such effects would be showing up by now.
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fitnessjustin01 wrote: »I don't know... because it's a socially accepted drug? 🤔
oh dear.
No, it is not a drug.
(socially accepted or otherwise)
It is just a food component.
16 -
Pogostickers wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »My mother, my father, my grandmother all died from Diabetes. (And now my sister is diagnosed) diseases that result in too much sugar in the blood (high blood glucose).
Have fun with your Sugar
I’m diabetic. My a1c has been in normal range for three years now. Not the ADA approved “normal for a diabetic” range of under 7, it’s consistently under 5, like a normal person’s. I also eat sugar, in appropriate amounts, when appropriate. For example, during a long distance race, or when recovering from exercise.
All things have a time and a place, sugar among them. It’s just as bad to fall on your face as to bend too far and fall over backwards.
That is great for you if you can have it in your life.
You will not catch me eating refined sugar.
Well you dont have to have it in your life if you dont want to.
There are things I feel that way about too - liver, tripe, cucumber.
But I dont expect everybody else to not want them in their life.
Refined sugar is great for most people - we can all have it in our lives if we want to
Obviously in portion controlled amounts if we want to be a healthy weight - but that goes for all food sources.
and obviously in even more tightly controlled portions if we are diabetic - but that goes for all food sources for which people have relevant medical conditions9 -
I think people defend sugar consumption because in a normal community it is basically impossible to avoid completely, and people like sugar the way crack addicts like crack.
oh dear.
yes it is basically impossible to avoid it completely - because it is a food component of many foods.
People like it in said foods (most people eat sugar in foods, not on its own) because they like the taste of said foods and they enjoy eating them.
Nothing wrong with enjoying food.
(of course in controlled calorie amounts, and in amounts consistent with any medical conditions or allergies - usual disclaimer)
Comparing it to crack addiction is silly scraping bottom of barrell argument - as well as being insulting to those who struggle with real addictions.
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jdecker32356 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Pogostickers wrote: »Maybe they never had half their family die from it
Is this a serious comment??
People are not dying from sugar
well, I guess a type 1 diabetic could go into diabetic coma and die if they ate massive amount and did not take their insulin. I knew somebody once who almost did that - was in ICU with BSL of 48 - but did recover.
But, most people can eat sugar in sensible amounts. Even diabetics can eat it in small amounts.
The issue is not sugar per se but over consumption leadng to obesity related diseases or, in case of diabetics, to diabetic complications.
Context. Dosage.
You conflated an instantaneous consequence with an average over time consequence, in order to call someone else dumb. People aren't talking about eating a lot of sugar once, they're talking about eating a lot of it over time, which would why diabetes is called a CHRONIC illness.
Um, no. The debate in this thread seems definitely to be between those who think sugar (or added sugar) in any amount is terrible and those of us saying it's fine in moderate amounts in the context of a healthful overall diet.Lol no one eats sugar in "sensible" amounts in the US.
No one? I think many of us here do.
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