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Face mask or no face mask?
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At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
WOW4 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?12 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?
You do reslize the virus will always exist, just like the Flu? I don't get a Flu shot, and I never get the Flu. I absolutely will not get a vaccine.4 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
I believe I understand where you're coming from. Years ago I read this statement (can't remember the author, and this is a paraphrase): "Everyone tries to do things in the interest of good, as they understand it."
My definition of what's in the interest of good re the pandemic is definitely not the same as people who refuse to wear masks because they think the masks are useless, so there you go.
Sometimes I try to have pity instead of rage for people who refuse to listen to scientists and doctors and instead listen to politicians and others who insist everything is on the path to normal, and stand to personally gain by that public stance. But it's tough not to be disgusted -- especially because I work in retail, so the willful ignorance is personally life-threatening.7 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
I believe I understand where you're coming from. Years ago I read this statement (can't remember the author, and this is a paraphrase): "Everyone tries to do things in the interest of good, as they understand it."
My definition of what's in the interest of good re the pandemic is definitely not the same as people who refuse to wear masks because they think the masks are useless, so there you go.
Sometimes I try to have pity instead of rage for people who refuse to listen to scientists and doctors and instead listen to politicians and others who insist everything is on the path to normal, and to stand to gain by that attitude. But it's tough not to be disgusted -- especially because I work in retail, so this issue is personally life-threatening.
Perhaps in a really small town where everyone knows everyone, and you know what you are doing will be seen and noticed by others.
Get a little bigger in size and the selfishness is shown and that is absolutely not true.
People are willing to risk other people's lives all the time on actions THEY KNOW are dangerous to others.
They truly do not care.0 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?
You do reslize the virus will always exist, just like the Flu? I don't get a Flu shot, and I never get the Flu. I absolutely will not get a vaccine.
Exist, yes. That's why I specifically said "get it UNDER CONTROL". Meaning stop the rampant community spread. Very few viruses are ever eradicated. Hopefully, enough people will have the sense to be vaccinated, and that will cause transmission road blocks to account for the people who can't/won't get the vaccine.10 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
I believe I understand where you're coming from. Years ago I read this statement (can't remember the author, and this is a paraphrase): "Everyone tries to do things in the interest of good, as they understand it."
My definition of what's in the interest of good re the pandemic is definitely not the same as people who refuse to wear masks because they think the masks are useless, so there you go.
Sometimes I try to have pity instead of rage for people who refuse to listen to scientists and doctors and instead listen to politicians and others who insist everything is on the path to normal, and to stand to gain by that attitude. But it's tough not to be disgusted -- especially because I work in retail, so this issue is personally life-threatening.
Perhaps in a really small town where everyone knows everyone, and you know what you are doing will be seen and noticed by others.
Get a little bigger in size and the selfishness is shown and that is absolutely not true.
People are willing to risk other people's lives all the time on actions THEY KNOW are dangerous to others.
They truly do not care.
That's absolutely true.
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?
If I may play devil's advocate here ... it's possible that assigning the moniker "life-saving precaution" to wearing a cloth face covering may seem to some as if you yourself are assigning moral attributes here.
In fact, from what I've read about the issue, there aren't any conclusive AND well conducted studies showing the efficacy of wearing cloth masks even as a method of source control. That means that the best we can say with any real certainty is that the science is still unsettled.
Don't get me wrong, there are other factors such as viral load for example that convince me that wearing a mask is the best choice, and no matter what - we should err on the side of caution in the face of a global pandemic. But I'm also willing to give some people the benefit of the doubt ... that they are making the best choices for themselves and for their families based on what they sincerely believe is true.2 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Understand attending church is important to you and everyone has to make there own decisions when an actual law is not involved. Just hope you don't have to be loving your congregation while hooked up to a ventilator.
God bless.
My pastor said something that really stuck with me. He said that we must all understand that there is often risk associated with church attendance. I take that to mean that in some parts of the world, attending a Christian church service could lead to real persecution (not that Christians have the corner on that market).
Obviously I recognize that religious persecution and Covid-19 are not the same thing, but it made me think about my own convictions and how I understand the biblical mandate regarding church attendance. My presence there is either important or it's not.
These are strange times we are living in.1 -
Not sure why I would be very very doubtful that the mass of folks there at your church have actually dug into research at anywhere near the level you appear to have at least looked.
It's very rare to have any mass of people actually dig into details as a reason to explain their behavior.
If that was the case how many of them are in healthy weight class and not smoking. Just an off-the-cuff thought.6 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »
Because a LOT of people apparently only think about themselves. I wonder how they will feel if they catch it and spread it to people they love and they die or get dangerously ill.
They'll blame someone else because nothing could ever be their fault.3 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?
You do reslize the virus will always exist, just like the Flu? I don't get a Flu shot, and I never get the Flu. I absolutely will not get a vaccine.
If I write what and how I feel about this statement and train of though, I will probably be banned for life from MFP. I am happy that I don't know this person and I don't have friends that think that way.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »
You do realize that those cheap paper masks do nothing to protect you? They are to protect you if someone coughs or sneezes. So, it takes one person who is sick and not wearing a mask. If you really want to be protected, you better wear a hazmat suite. Do you wear goggles? If not, the virus can enter through your eyes. So, the mask makes people "feel" safe.
This stuff about the virus entering through your eyes sounds like pure speculation. Can we get exposed to diseases via our eyeballs? I'm sure we can. But viral load is a thing and if someone coughs in your vicinity, mere access to your eyeball isn't going to mean you necessarily get infected.
No scientific knowledge, but I'd guess the biggest danger would be picking up fomites from surfaces and rubbing them into eyes.
Sure, but we can minimize that without goggles by limiting the surfaces we touch outside our home, reducing the number of times we touch our face/eyes, and regularly washing our hands. It isn't going to eliminate the possibility of getting ill, but we basically can't ever eliminate that possibility in life . . . we're simply managing risks as best we can.
My point is that there is no good evidence that we need to wear goggles in public or we might as well not bother to do anything at all.
I'm pretty sure (well, I hope) that @cgvet37 wouldn't argue that we shouldn't bother to ever wash our hands because we might still get sick anyway. The same principle applies to masks.
Did you really compare washing your hands to wearing a mask?
Yes, I did. Both are actions designed to *reduce* risk of disease transmission. That neither is successful in completely eliminating disease doesn't mean we should skip them.
Right?9 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
11 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
This is the best example I have seen illustrating why we will NEVER be able to get this virus under control. As long as people assign moral attributes to forgoing life-saving precautions, there is no hope.
When/if we get a safe and reliable vaccine, how many people will make religious, moral, political, medical, and social excuses for NOT getting the vaccine?
"In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters are actually loving me by refusing to get vaccinated. I love them for doing what they think is right and good."3 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
6 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
Yes, a guiding principle is supposed to be more the direction I'd be willing to die for you, not I'd be willing to let you die. (for my convenience)10 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
Blessed are you when people infect you with preventable illnesses . . .7 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.1 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)4 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.4 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Understand attending church is important to you and everyone has to make there own decisions when an actual law is not involved. Just hope you don't have to be loving your congregation while hooked up to a ventilator.
God bless.
My pastor said something that really stuck with me. He said that we must all understand that there is often risk associated with church attendance. I take that to mean that in some parts of the world, attending a Christian church service could lead to real persecution (not that Christians have the corner on that market).
Obviously I recognize that religious persecution and Covid-19 are not the same thing, but it made me think about my own convictions and how I understand the biblical mandate regarding church attendance. My presence there is either important or it's not.
These are strange times we are living in.
Everyone has their own interpretation but the 4th commandment in the Christian Bible says to remember the Sabbath Lord's Day) and keep it holy. Nothing says one has to "keep it holy" inside a church.
Again different interpretations.
I totally agree! In fact, I had never taken the time to really suss out my own interpretation until COVID-19 came around.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
Throughout history, many evil acts were committed by people who sincerely believed they were right, many of them in the name of religion. This does not make the act less evil.
The Catholics who conducted the Spanish Inquisition were doing what they thought was right.
The Nazis were doing what they thought was right.
The Ku Klux Klan does what they think is right.
The 9/11 terrorists were doing what they thought was right.
People who commit "Honor Killings" of female family members are doing what they think is right.
It's up to us to stand up to people who THINK they are right, but it is obvious they are not. In all these cases, there are/were people present who knew better, but they remained silent.
To be clear, I am NOT comparing not wearing a face mask with the Holocaust, I am simply pointing out that "believing you are right" is not an excuse to put others at risk.
12 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
I don't think sincerity of belief can be a defense against destructive behavior, even if those beliefs are held by generally good people.
I admit I'm a moral relativist, but I can't pretzel-ize my mind into rationalizing that when people I like do something out of sincere belief, it's OK, when that thing is harmful in my own sincere belief (especially when my belief is reinforced by the opinion of the majority of actual experts on the thing in question, not just that one/few doctors on one network or in a couple YouTube vids, and is in the realm of potentially objectively knowable things as opposed to the realm that's necessarily about pure faith).
I get the part about loving and respecting them anyway, probably even continuing to think that they're overall and in general good people. I would hope I could feel likewise. But in my belief system, which also has some near-absolutes despite the squishy relativism, they're still wrong, and still creating (at best) increased risk of harm, possibly actual harm. They don't get a hall pass for that particular behavior.7 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.
Would you also remember that it was also your choice to put at risk other people, that may also end up in a ventilator or the cemetery ? Would you feel proud of that too?
Note: I really, really hope that you don't ever end up hooked up to a ventilator
. 4 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.
Would you also remember that it was also your choice to put at risk other people, that may also end up in a ventilator or the cemetery ? Would you feel proud of that too?
Note: I really, really hope that you don't ever end up hooked up to a ventilator .
I would not feel proud. Not at all. In fact, this is the biggest motivator driving me to practice social distancing to a fault and wear a mask as often as possible. I know that I have many opportunities to come into contact with the virus throughout my day to day life, and I am doing everything I can to minimize the possibility of spreading the virus to others (short of staying home all the time).3 -
(quote removed by mods)
Personally, I believe - and try to practice this belief - that it's important to continuously challenge and consider one's own practices, where there is the potential for harm to others. For me, personally, that's part of the whole cloth of ethics and morality.
I expect that of myself, and try to hold myself to it. I expect it of others. I'm not perfect, and I don't expect others to be perfect. But I expect all of us to make an effort.
On the mask-wearing issue specifically, it seems that there is limited or no harm (I believe the latter BTW) to me from wearing a mask. I think the balance of science is on the side that wearing a mask has some protective effect for others. Even if the latter were more speculative, that still puts the balance of emphasis on the side of wearing a mask, for me. Limited/no harm to me, balanced with probable/speculative benefits to others.
I can't speak for those in your church; I don't know them. Among my own friends, family, and acquaintances, the non-mask-wearers are getting input from limited information sources (often ideologically biased); treating the masklessness as a proud symbol of patriotism and independence; forming conspiracy theories about those I consider to be clear experts; letting group identity (either religious or political) override nuanced thinking; and/or seeing the mask as a sign of disrepect to the god they believe will protect them from the virus (and possibly protect those of us who have different beliefs, or maybe they think we should get the disease to punish our disbelief - that varies among individuals).
None of that works for me, ethically or morally. I haven't stopped caring about them or respecting them as people (well, most of them - a couple have IMO truly jumped the shark in major ways lately 😬, beyond just this issue, and I will be editing them out of my life in the future 😢). To be clear: I care in certain ways about all people, certainly including people who don't share my entire belief structure, and to some extent even people whose actions I consider unethical or immoral. None of that prevents shunning people whose behavior is beyond the pale, and I certainly don't respect the behavior.13 -
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(quote removed by mods)
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
*edited spelling errors4
This discussion has been closed.
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