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Face mask or no face mask?
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janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
Throughout history, many evil acts were committed by people who sincerely believed they were right, many of them in the name of religion. This does not make the act less evil.
The Catholics who conducted the Spanish Inquisition were doing what they thought was right.
The Nazis were doing what they thought was right.
The Ku Klux Klan does what they think is right.
The 9/11 terrorists were doing what they thought was right.
People who commit "Honor Killings" of female family members are doing what they think is right.
It's up to us to stand up to people who THINK they are right, but it is obvious they are not. In all these cases, there are/were people present who knew better, but they remained silent.
To be clear, I am NOT comparing not wearing a face mask with the Holocaust, I am simply pointing out that "believing you are right" is not an excuse to put others at risk.
12 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
I don't think sincerity of belief can be a defense against destructive behavior, even if those beliefs are held by generally good people.
I admit I'm a moral relativist, but I can't pretzel-ize my mind into rationalizing that when people I like do something out of sincere belief, it's OK, when that thing is harmful in my own sincere belief (especially when my belief is reinforced by the opinion of the majority of actual experts on the thing in question, not just that one/few doctors on one network or in a couple YouTube vids, and is in the realm of potentially objectively knowable things as opposed to the realm that's necessarily about pure faith).
I get the part about loving and respecting them anyway, probably even continuing to think that they're overall and in general good people. I would hope I could feel likewise. But in my belief system, which also has some near-absolutes despite the squishy relativism, they're still wrong, and still creating (at best) increased risk of harm, possibly actual harm. They don't get a hall pass for that particular behavior.7 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.
Would you also remember that it was also your choice to put at risk other people, that may also end up in a ventilator or the cemetery ? Would you feel proud of that too?
Note: I really, really hope that you don't ever end up hooked up to a ventilator
. 4 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.
Would you also remember that it was also your choice to put at risk other people, that may also end up in a ventilator or the cemetery ? Would you feel proud of that too?
Note: I really, really hope that you don't ever end up hooked up to a ventilator .
I would not feel proud. Not at all. In fact, this is the biggest motivator driving me to practice social distancing to a fault and wear a mask as often as possible. I know that I have many opportunities to come into contact with the virus throughout my day to day life, and I am doing everything I can to minimize the possibility of spreading the virus to others (short of staying home all the time).3 -
(quote removed by mods)
Personally, I believe - and try to practice this belief - that it's important to continuously challenge and consider one's own practices, where there is the potential for harm to others. For me, personally, that's part of the whole cloth of ethics and morality.
I expect that of myself, and try to hold myself to it. I expect it of others. I'm not perfect, and I don't expect others to be perfect. But I expect all of us to make an effort.
On the mask-wearing issue specifically, it seems that there is limited or no harm (I believe the latter BTW) to me from wearing a mask. I think the balance of science is on the side that wearing a mask has some protective effect for others. Even if the latter were more speculative, that still puts the balance of emphasis on the side of wearing a mask, for me. Limited/no harm to me, balanced with probable/speculative benefits to others.
I can't speak for those in your church; I don't know them. Among my own friends, family, and acquaintances, the non-mask-wearers are getting input from limited information sources (often ideologically biased); treating the masklessness as a proud symbol of patriotism and independence; forming conspiracy theories about those I consider to be clear experts; letting group identity (either religious or political) override nuanced thinking; and/or seeing the mask as a sign of disrepect to the god they believe will protect them from the virus (and possibly protect those of us who have different beliefs, or maybe they think we should get the disease to punish our disbelief - that varies among individuals).
None of that works for me, ethically or morally. I haven't stopped caring about them or respecting them as people (well, most of them - a couple have IMO truly jumped the shark in major ways lately 😬, beyond just this issue, and I will be editing them out of my life in the future 😢). To be clear: I care in certain ways about all people, certainly including people who don't share my entire belief structure, and to some extent even people whose actions I consider unethical or immoral. None of that prevents shunning people whose behavior is beyond the pale, and I certainly don't respect the behavior.13 -
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(quote removed by mods)
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
*edited spelling errors4 -
Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.13 -
Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.
That, plus said "Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions" in reply to a post (that he was agreeing with) that said "I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear". If that's not also throwing out insults and making assumptions, I don't know what is.
I have no problem with rural people who don't need to wear masks, and don't. I also have little problem with people in communities with ultra-low community spread not being hyper-compulsive about masks. Rationality about one's actual context is fine.
I don't personally like name-calling, even among people who agree with me. It's tacky.
ETA a P.S. I didn't think "galaxy brain" was appropriate or pleasant, either, personally - even though I'm not totally sure what it means. 😆5 -
Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.
Feel free to refer back to the comments made when I simply stated I did not wear a mask. You will see there are more than a couple in here who made the assumption all should wear a mask and were not bashful about stating how selfish I am, or we are, without knowing that “I’m not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about.”.
The same assumptions are being made for all of us who don’t wear masks.
Also, just because you’re not into paridae you shouldn’t disagree. But, that’s a subject for another discussion/ debate.
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janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.3 -
At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
But does Christ loves you for putting your fellow Christian's friends health in jeopardy and risk getting the virus and maybe dying? He was sacrificed for protecting his flock, but his flock can't even keep social distance or wear a mask to protect humanity? Wow, just wow!
But if they honestly believe that wearing a mask does no good and is, in fact, harmful to themselves and to the public at large ... how could they do anything else? Isn't the "objectively evil" thing "Doing Something that You Sincerely Believe is Harmful to Others?"
It's hard to remember that what seems so clear and obvious to us may present differently to others. In their mind, wearing a mask does not equal protecting humanity. I'm just trying to get past the anger that seems to muddy this debate from both sides.
Not trying to make this a religious thing ... that's just the circleof people around me.
Believing something doesn't automatically make you right. Whatever they believe, even if there's a slight chance masks help, your brothers and sisters in christ are being selfish for not keeping their cooties to themselves. There's also a condom joke in here somewhere but I don't want to offend. 😀
How are you going to feel if you end up on a ventilator because someone didn't wear a mask? Will their thoughts and prayers comfort you while you're trying to breathe? (I'm reminded of the school shootings and all those scared and DEAD kids.)
The bolded statement in your comment could be made about both sides of this argument ... it's all about perspective. My point is that being wrong doesn't automatically make you evil.
The fact is, I know the situation when I walk into that building every Sunday. If I end up on a ventilator, I hope that I will remember that it was my choice to put myself at risk.
And since you know the situation, you are also choosing every week to put other people at risk. Your fellow congregants. Any one you live with. The checker at the grocery store. The medical personnel who might end up having to take care of you when you're on that ventilator.5 -
Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.
That, plus said "Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions" in reply to a post (that he was agreeing with) that said "I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear". If that's not also throwing out insults and making assumptions, I don't know what is.
I have no problem with rural people who don't need to wear masks, and don't. I also have little problem with people in communities with ultra-low community spread not being hyper-compulsive about masks. Rationality about one's actual context is fine.
I don't personally like name-calling, even among people who agree with me. It's tacky.
ETA a P.S. I didn't think "galaxy brain" was appropriate or pleasant, either, personally - even though I'm not totally sure what it means. 😆
Definitely that, plus concurring with a post calling someone a dimwit, while criticizing the throwing out of insults, plus getting all shirty over being disagreed with.
4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.
That, plus said "Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions" in reply to a post (that he was agreeing with) that said "I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear". If that's not also throwing out insults and making assumptions, I don't know what is.
I have no problem with rural people who don't need to wear masks, and don't. I also have little problem with people in communities with ultra-low community spread not being hyper-compulsive about masks. Rationality about one's actual context is fine.
I don't personally like name-calling, even among people who agree with me. It's tacky.
ETA a P.S. I didn't think "galaxy brain" was appropriate or pleasant, either, personally - even though I'm not totally sure what it means. 😆
Definitely that, plus concurring with a post calling someone a dimwit, while criticizing the throwing out of insults, plus getting all shirty over being disagreed with.
Sorry that I did not edit edit the other posters comment to reflect that only the sheeple portion was what I was agreeing with. Also, this is a discussion/ debate thread so I’m not sure how I was getting shirty. I was merely responding.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.2 -
Thread closed for moderator review.
The thread is back open, but please keep the debate civil and don't resort to personal insults.
Thanks! :flowerforyou:8 -
Thanks. I’ve made my opinion known and will stand down unless someone tags me.2
-
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
No argument there. However, can you think of any other illness or event, whether natural disaster or man-made, that has killed 772,700 (latest figure) human beings world wide in the span of eight months?4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
No argument there. However, can you think of any other illness or event, whether natural disaster or man-made, that has killed 772,700 (latest figure) human beings world wide in the span of eight months?
Spanish flu.2 -
The places I don't wear a mask: in my home, sitting on my patio with just the dog, when I'm alone walking my dog and when I'm out exercise walking by myself. Otherwise I wear a mask. I don't allow others in my home, I don't eat or drink outside my home. I only frequent grocery stores 2-3 times a month, doctor visits occasionally and the pharmacy if necessary. I use curb side pickup, have meds and goods mailed to me, and use tell a medical appointments if available. I don't think it's safe to take chances with my health or the health of others around me.7
-
No argument there. However, can you think of any other illness or event, whether natural disaster or man-made, that has killed 772,700 (latest figure) human beings world wide in the span of eight months?
Infectious diseases are common.
WHO mentions 17 millions of person in a year (a while ago).
https://www.who.int/whr/1996/media_centre/press_release/en/
This is on the high side, but I have seen between 5-10M elsewhere. Just tuberculosis is probably 1.5-2.0M.
This site mentions 2.56M because of pneumonia, another infectious disease "caused by a number of different infectious agents, including viruses, bacteria and fungi."
https://ourworldindata.org/pneumonia#:~:text=2.56 million people died from,death for children under 5.
0 -
Thank you for reopening this thread
I've found it enlightening and to be a good debate.
Does anyone have particulars about the Spanish Flu? I thought I read recently that 50 Million people had died from it?1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
The correct context: 774,000 or three-quarters of a million people suddenly dying within a few months does not normally happen. Milllions died in WWI and WWII over a period of years. More people have died in the United States alone from this disease than all the Americans who died in World War One.
Some of these COVID deaths could have been prevented with masks, social distancing, and better hygiene. Hundreds of thousands of people dying out of billions of people does not make it okay when many of those deaths could have been prevented. Those people were not just numbers.13 -
I hate wearing a mask....it fogs up my glasses, my face gets sweaty and hot, it makes me uncomfortable. But not as uncomfortable as someone who can't f*#@ing breath because of Covid19 or whose organs are permanently damanged. So I'm happy to wear one if it means keeping my fellow humans safe and healthy. It's really not that hard of a concept.12
-
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
The correct context: 774,000 or three-quarters of a million people suddenly dying within a few months does not normally happen. Milllions died in WWI and WWII over a period of years. More people have died in the United States alone from this disease than all the Americans who died in World War One.
Some of these COVID deaths could have been prevented with masks, social distancing, and better hygiene. Hundreds of thousands of people dying out of billions of people does not make it okay when many of those deaths could have been prevented. Those people were not just numbers.
And those numbers already included in most countries some very tight lockdowns, and after that more restrictions that slightly majority (?) are following.
As to what the numbers would have been had those actions NOT been taken.
Compared to annual flu deaths that has no where near those controls - only people being realistic hopefully and NOT going into work or school to infect others would be about it.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
No argument there. However, can you think of any other illness or event, whether natural disaster or man-made, that has killed 772,700 (latest figure) human beings world wide in the span of eight months?
Spanish flu.
I'd like to think we'd made great strides scientifically, medically, socially in the 102 years since that one.
Infectious diseases are common.
WHO mentions 17 millions of person in a year (a while ago).
https://www.who.int/whr/1996/media_centre/press_release/en/
That 17 million appears, on a quick read, to be a cumulative total of ALL illnesses. Including mad cow disease. Not sure that's still a big threat these days, possibly in some parts of the world.1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Thanks for saving me dimwit... I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear.
I concur.
Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions about those of us who don’t wear masks. Feel free take responsibility for your own health and keep yourselves away from those not wearing a mask.
Out here where your nearest neighbor is easily a mile or more down the road and the most interaction we have with others is chatting with them when they pass by on their tractor carrying a round bale to their cattle it doesn’t really make sense to wear a mask.
Ya’ll feel free to social distance yourselves in the cities where you live and leave us rural folk alone.
*edited spelling errors
Y’all can disagree but I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with.
I’ve not seen where anyone who does not wear a mask has made threats such as “...deserved to be smacked upside the head.” Or “If I write what and how I feel...I will probably be banned for life...”.
“Social distancing” is supposed to help slow the spread of COVID-19 and if you’re outside chatting with a farmer or cattleman in a tractor large enough to be transporting a, or multiple, round bales down a road you’re not invading their “social distancing” space.
Also, why would you disagree with individuals who live in higher populated areas traveling to lower populated areas and risk infecting us? You don’t want us selfish, non-responsible, non-mask wearers “infecting” you, right?
The myopic, one size fits all, approach has been detrimental to many areas and I am glad that the people in my community have had the foresight and intestinal fortitude to evaluate our actual risks before making knee-jerk decisions.
I’m doing fine, my community is doing fine, and to those making threats and trying to bully us, that’s not going to sway our opinion.
I disagreed because I thought your argument was silly. I can't think of anyone in here who would expect you to wear a mask if your neighbors are a mile away. You're not really even talking about the same thing most of us are talking about. Also, I just really don't like your username.
That, plus said "Ya’ll can throw out insults and make assumptions" in reply to a post (that he was agreeing with) that said "I'm not going to be a sheep and live in fear". If that's not also throwing out insults and making assumptions, I don't know what is.
I have no problem with rural people who don't need to wear masks, and don't. I also have little problem with people in communities with ultra-low community spread not being hyper-compulsive about masks. Rationality about one's actual context is fine.
I don't personally like name-calling, even among people who agree with me. It's tacky.
ETA a P.S. I didn't think "galaxy brain" was appropriate or pleasant, either, personally - even though I'm not totally sure what it means. 😆
Definitely that, plus concurring with a post calling someone a dimwit, while criticizing the throwing out of insults, plus getting all shirty over being disagreed with.
Sorry that I did not edit edit the other posters comment to reflect that only the sheeple portion was what I was agreeing with. Also, this is a discussion/ debate thread so I’m not sure how I was getting shirty. I was merely responding.
Look through the thread. Probably at least half the comments draw at least a couple of disagrees. Because not everybody is going to agree with everything. People generally just ignore it. I'm not sure why your comments should be immune from being disagreed with.7 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »At my church, almost no one practices social distancing and it often seems as if I'm the only one wearing a mask. When the Elders opened the church back up for live Sunday services, I was angry about it ... but I kept going because it's important to me.
Lately, I've come to the realization that these are the same people I know and love. The fact is they legitimately believe that masks do absolutely no good whatsoever. In fact, they actually believe wearing masks is harmful ... for any number of reasons - political, medical, and social. It mystifies me how they've come to this conclusion, but they have. And just like me, these people are moving forward in these highly uncertain times, making the best decisions they can, based on things that they very strongly believe in.
In a very real sense, my brothers and sisters in Christ are actually loving me by NOT wearing a mask. And even though I strongly disagree with their conclusions, I love them for doing what they think is right and good.
Wait, what?
This sounds like broken brain thinking.
Your first set principle is "I believe these people are good" and you move on to "therefore everything they do must be good and an expression of their love and goodness."
It really should be "These people are doing something that is objectively selfish and misinformed" and let that take you to deciding what type of people they are.
Your style of thinking is what lets us rationalize evil. "These people are good, therefore [x behavior] must be good."
In reality these could be otherwise good people who are doing something wrong. Or they could be truly terrible people who are using a belief system to whitewash their generally terrible behavior. I don't know -- I don't go to your church. But I do know that saying "Christians are good, therefore all Christian behavior is good" isn't logical.
(Same for any group, this isn't religion-specific).
I fully agree with the bolded statement above. The point of my comment was that I want to believe the best about people who I disagree with. I'm trying to believe that they are doing what they sincerely think is right ... just like me. Just like you. The fact that they are Christians is secondary.
But are you doing what you sincerely think is right? As I'm reading your posts, it sounds like you believe that having people congregate in large numbers inside without masks is a bad idea in terms of trying to contain a virus that has killed three-quarters of a million people in the past eight months. Do you think that participating in that, contributing to potential transmissions, and supporting the behavior of many other people who are doing that is the right thing to do?
You compared it to the risk in participating in religious activities in areas where there is religious persecution. To me, participating in such activities when you don't share their beliefs that masks are useless or dangerous and crowds aren't an issue seems more analogous to seeking out martyrdom by going to the authorities and reporting the religious activities of your congregation, with full knowledge that you and your fellow Christians and pastor could all end up in prison or reeducation camps or in the arena with lions, depending on time and place.
Let’s put this three-quarters of a million people into perspective. That’s three-quarters of a million deaths out of almost 7.8 billion people world wide.
If we’re going to start tossing out numbers let’s put them in The correct context.
No argument there. However, can you think of any other illness or event, whether natural disaster or man-made, that has killed 772,700 (latest figure) human beings world wide in the span of eight months?
Spanish flu.
I'd like to think we'd made great strides scientifically, medically, socially in the 102 years since that one.
Infectious diseases are common.
WHO mentions 17 millions of person in a year (a while ago).
https://www.who.int/whr/1996/media_centre/press_release/en/
That 17 million appears, on a quick read, to be a cumulative total of ALL illnesses. Including mad cow disease. Not sure that's still a big threat these days, possibly in some parts of the world.
Well, I would like to think that too. It seems like something that should be true. Sadly ...1 -
I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.3
-
I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.
So what do you consider to be an accurate source of information on COVID-19, the current impact on the US, and how to reduce risk?
Or are we in a "reality is unknowable" situation?5
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