Gamechangers...
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forensicanthropology
Posts: 29 Member
Anybody watched it on Netflix? Thoughts? Im a lifelong vegetarian with egg allergy and I don't like cheese or butter so the only thing keeping me from being plant based is the milk and yogurt. I have just changed to coconut milk and planning on changing to entirely plant based in the next week.
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Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous6
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did you watch the film?
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forensicanthropology wrote: »did you watch the film?
As if Netflix entertainment-mentaries don't have an agenda??10 -
find me a platform where there is no agenda. Fortunately, I am intelligent enough to search out the peer reviewed literature myself. I was simply curious if anybody had any other thoughts.
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I avoid netflix documentaries as they get me all excited or worked up about something, hoping theyll hold up to me researching it, and they never do.
I have never seen any research that strongly suggests health benefits of vegetarian over omnivore that isn't easily refuted and is reproducible. I always come away with the idea that a calorie appropriate, varied, nutrient rich diet with enough protein, fiber, and fat is key whether you are vegetarian or omnivore.
I'm sure we discussed this here when it first came out, so if you don't get much interest in this thread you might try searching the forum with the doc title. :drinker:10 -
forensicanthropology wrote: »find me a platform where there is no agenda. Fortunately, I am intelligent enough to search out the peer reviewed literature myself. I was simply curious if anybody had any other thoughts.
Netflix is over the top with its agenda, though. Way too biased and easily refuted.4 -
Truthfully, I've avoided it on purpose, for many reasons. Here are a few:
1. Reviews like these, from qualified dietitians and other nutritional experts (the first one linked is by a vegan, BTW):
https://dieteticallyspeaking.com/an-evidence-based-review-of-the-game-changers/
https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-review-a-scientific-analysis/
2. A reputation of Netflix food/diet documentaries generally as being advocacy pieces, not good science, coupled with the science-based reviews saying this was another of the same, plus it having been produced by people with a stake in vegan products companies.
3. Sniff test: Humans evolved as opportunistic omnivores. Why would they thrive best eating in a different way? Big claims require big proof.
4. Serious professional and other elite athletes will do nearly anything to squeeze out a competitive advantage, even a tiny one. Most of them rely on highly skilled, specialized professionals to guide them, utilizing the most recent and best scientific research. If veganism really delivered in the way this suggests, veganism would be broadly adopted by now. It hasn't been. (I've follow some of the nutritional guidance to national team - i.e., Olympic - athletes. Veganism isn't a core principle, not even close. I actually know current/former national team athletes in my sport, BTW - not a vegan among that subset.)
. . . and there's more, but that's enough.
There are many good reasons to become vegan. Athletic excellence is not prime among them. Athletes who are vegan can perform well, but I see no compelling evidence for a vegan advantage. I'm not vegan, but have been vegetarian for 46+ years, so I'm hardly a shill for "big meat".
As a vegetarian, I resent biased advocacy pieces that - frankly - make vegans and vegetarians look like deluded idiots. I don't need to watch every example to have a reasonable expectation that Gamechangers is just one of the recent examples of this type.
If you want to switch to a fully plant-based diet, I think that's great. If you're also an athlete, you can be reassured that with careful attention to nutrition (like understanding essential amino acid requirements for muscle protein synthesis, supplementation requirements, etc.), your athletic performance can continue unimpaired. I'm 100% convinced there's no advantage, athletically. In fact, vegan eating as an athlete (and to a lesser extent just as an average human) requires slightly more attention to good nutrition, vs omnivory. It's not an automatic win for nutrition or health.
(I'm not saying vegetarianism is "better", either. I eat how I eat for personal reasons, but don't consider it universally superior in the abstract.)12 -
paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
And omnivore is, biologically, an individual that has the ability to survive on both plant and animal matter. Being an omnivore physiologically means that we have the ability to *choose* to thrive on a plant-based diet. Animal products aren't obligatory to us.8 -
cmriverside wrote: »forensicanthropology wrote: »find me a platform where there is no agenda. Fortunately, I am intelligent enough to search out the peer reviewed literature myself. I was simply curious if anybody had any other thoughts.
Netflix is over the top with its agenda, though. Way too biased and easily refuted.
I am not defending the film, but Netflix is simply *showing* it. It had nothing to do with the production of the film. This is like blaming Netflix for the content of "Ancient Aliens" or one of several anti-sugar/Paleo films they've shown over the years.7 -
https://youtu.be/R6Ju_HdWB0Y - All you really need to know.... 4 -
Interesting movie. Entertaining. Just full of cherry picked studies and misinformation. I would watch forks over knives if I wanted a little more accurate info. FON is still propaganda, but a little more accurate.5
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janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
And omnivore is, biologically, an individual that has the ability to survive on both plant and animal matter. Being an omnivore physiologically means that we have the ability to *choose* to thrive on a plant-based diet. Animal products aren't obligatory to us.
If a diet requires fortification and/or supplementation, then i wouldn't call that thriving. And more often than not, b12 and iron become big concerns on plant based diets. Given the benefits of lean animal proteins and fish (plus the improved amino acids profiles, which are favorable to athletic performance, there is a reason pro athletes follow less restrictive approaches to nutrition. And yes, i feel this way about thr opposite end of the spectrum with ketogenic diets as well.
If we take an anthropological standpoint from this conversation, they would consume whatever was in abundance during the season. Maybe you can correct me, but where any ancient societies plant based?5 -
OP, it comes down to beliefs and goals? My goals are around body composition and aesthetics. And while i cut with ketogenic, i tend to focus more of lean proteins, seafood and fibrous foods. It makes me feel and perform better in the gym. Once i am done cutting i will come off keto (likely) and move towards a more flexible diet and increase plant consumption. But overall, i don't see value in going completely plant or meat based. There are tons of benefits from both. So why not maximize your results.1
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janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
And omnivore is, biologically, an individual that has the ability to survive on both plant and animal matter. Being an omnivore physiologically means that we have the ability to *choose* to thrive on a plant-based diet. Animal products aren't obligatory to us.
If a diet requires fortification and/or supplementation, then i wouldn't call that thriving. And more often than not, b12 and iron become big concerns on plant based diets. Given the benefits of lean animal proteins and fish (plus the improved amino acids profiles, which are favorable to athletic performance, there is a reason pro athletes follow less restrictive approaches to nutrition. And yes, i feel this way about thr opposite end of the spectrum with ketogenic diets as well.
If we take an anthropological standpoint from this conversation, they would consume whatever was in abundance during the season. Maybe you can correct me, but where any ancient societies plant based?
I agree. Our ancient ancestors would have eaten whatever the hell they could get. Protein, unlike what the paleo folks will tell you, was a hard commodity to come by. When meat was available, they ate it. In fact there is documentation of the Hadza eating 5lbs of meat at a sitting after a kill. They actually attack the organs and hind quarters first. High in fat and minerals.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
And omnivore is, biologically, an individual that has the ability to survive on both plant and animal matter. Being an omnivore physiologically means that we have the ability to *choose* to thrive on a plant-based diet. Animal products aren't obligatory to us.
If a diet requires fortification and/or supplementation, then i wouldn't call that thriving. And more often than not, b12 and iron become big concerns on plant based diets. Given the benefits of lean animal proteins and fish (plus the improved amino acids profiles, which are favorable to athletic performance, there is a reason pro athletes follow less restrictive approaches to nutrition. And yes, i feel this way about thr opposite end of the spectrum with ketogenic diets as well.
If we take an anthropological standpoint from this conversation, they would consume whatever was in abundance during the season. Maybe you can correct me, but where any ancient societies plant based?
I'm probably just being pedantic (as is so often the case), but that seems to me to be an odd way to look at "thriving". "Thriving" seems to me to be about the state of the organism, not how it reached that state.
I think you probably know by now that I don't consider fully plant-based eating (or my own vegetarian eating style) to be optimal from an ease or perhaps even performance standpoint (because it is a little more fiddly in practice to get good nutrition, even though I think it's possible, as perhaps you don't). The reasons to be vegetarian, fully-plant-based, or vegan lie in other realms, IMO.
Maybe I'm incorrect, but I've had the impression that you do or have used some supplements at times. If that's true, have you considered yourself not to be "thriving" at those times?
I'm inclined to agree with Jane that one - as a modern-times person in many parts of the world - can "thrive" on a fully plant-based diet, i.e., be about as healthy and high performing as their genetics and personal effort allow them to be. But it would require a bit more attention and intention to do that with a fully plant-based (or vegetarian) diet, vs. "thriving" as an ominvore. Just my opinion, of course.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
And omnivore is, biologically, an individual that has the ability to survive on both plant and animal matter. Being an omnivore physiologically means that we have the ability to *choose* to thrive on a plant-based diet. Animal products aren't obligatory to us.
If a diet requires fortification and/or supplementation, then i wouldn't call that thriving. And more often than not, b12 and iron become big concerns on plant based diets. Given the benefits of lean animal proteins and fish (plus the improved amino acids profiles, which are favorable to athletic performance, there is a reason pro athletes follow less restrictive approaches to nutrition. And yes, i feel this way about thr opposite end of the spectrum with ketogenic diets as well.
If we take an anthropological standpoint from this conversation, they would consume whatever was in abundance during the season. Maybe you can correct me, but where any ancient societies plant based?
I'm probably just being pedantic (as is so often the case), but that seems to me to be an odd way to look at "thriving". "Thriving" seems to me to be about the state of the organism, not how it reached that state.
I think you probably know by now that I don't consider fully plant-based eating (or my own vegetarian eating style) to be optimal from an ease or perhaps even performance standpoint (because it is a little more fiddly in practice to get good nutrition, even though I think it's possible, as perhaps you don't). The reasons to be vegetarian, fully-plant-based, or vegan lie in other realms, IMO.
Maybe I'm incorrect, but I've had the impression that you do or have used some supplements at times. If that's true, have you considered yourself not to be "thriving" at those times?
I'm inclined to agree with Jane that one - as a modern-times person in many parts of the world - can "thrive" on a fully plant-based diet, i.e., be about as healthy and high performing as their genetics and personal effort allow them to be. But it would require a bit more attention and intention to do that with a fully plant-based (or vegetarian) diet, vs. "thriving" as an ominvore. Just my opinion, of course.
First, yes, there are periods where i have had to supplement. The ketogenic, in my opinion, is equally suboptimal in many standards. It impairs performance and if carefully not managed, you can get electrolyte deficiencies. That did happen to me for a small period (like a few days).
My supplementation is for performance enhancement and the additional 1%. I used to supplement with creatine but that screwed up my stomach. Currently i use protein powder and L-Citrulline; i was running a pre-workout but ran out.
We could probably argue endlessly, but a complete diet, to me, provides all nutrients. A diet that has higher than normal deficiencies (as a population) doesn't suggest to me that you can thrive on the diet alone. Therefore, a diet requiring supplementation or fortification tells me its not complete and is suboptimal compared to other diets. So the question begs, can you perform better on a different diet. People often think what they are doing is thriving but if they switched to a different diet, they might find out they weren't. Interestingly, i read an article awhile after this movie came out and a lot of the athletes that went plant based switched back from impacted performance. This also happened when keto got popular.
ETA: i openly acknowledge that I follow a suboptimal diet for satiety. It keeps my binges under control and allows for calorie control. I know i will go back to being a flexible dieter after i lose the fat.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
Designed by God.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »paulcaesar67 wrote: »Our bodies are designed to be omnivorous not herbivorous
First, designed by whom?
Designed by God.
Careful sir. There are folks here of all beliefs or none at all.5 -
I agree with kimny72 who wrote ‘ I always come away with the idea that a calorie appropriate, varied, nutrient rich diet with enough protein, fiber, and fat is key whether you are vegetarian or omnivore.’
Read the China study by Thomas colins PHD, eat to live by dr Jeremy Sherman or in defence of food by Michael polson
Michael polson sums it up well .... eat food, not too much, mostly plants.
Canada’s new food guide is also interesting and was revised a couple of years ago without food industry or marketing boards ‘at the table’.
At the end of the day you have to do what is right for you.
I’ve watched gamechangers. Found it to be very biased and one sided. One part that stands out is they took people who were eating nutritionally unbalanced diets and put them on plant based only and they became healthier. Let’s face it, if those people, who were not eating fruits or vegetables or whole grains at all, replaced half of their unhealthy diet with these new healthy choices and kept the other half of unhealthy, then they would likely also have become healthier.
Even though I’ve read and keep reading different studies and points of view, I continue to eat in an omnivore way. Why? Habit? Convenience? My husband does the shopping and cooking ? — that last reason is likely the most significant in my life. We are all different and have different circumstances and make different conclusions based on the information available.
Do what is right for you.
Take care3 -
There are plenty of societies that have been strictly vegetarian for years. There are also plenty of societies that almost exclusively eat meat or fish. Humans have, as a species, adapted to a variety of diets and thrived. What we tend to forget is that those individual populations with diets at one or the other end of the spectrum have adapted over time and have different gut flora and/or sensivities than those of us who come from populations that have been have had more catholic* diets through the centuries. Thus, I don't find it surprising that someone moving from one type of diet to another might need supplementation to be healthy on that diet.
*note the lower case c3
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