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Face mask or no face mask?
Replies
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Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.laurenq1991 wrote: »BrustMannEiner wrote: »Thank you @laurenq1991
Sorry that you are also receiving the backlash of comments such as "What a genius". Been there, addressed comments like that, thread was closed then reopened after being edited. I guess it's positive that those disagreeing with you, and us, are not stating we should be thumped from a social distance with a 72" 2"x4".
Every little win is a plus.
It's to be expected. And it's pretty mild compared to some of the comments I've gotten in the past. Like, some guy once accused me of "not believing in water fluoridation" because I don't agree with lockdowns. Someone else started mocking me and accusing me of "claiming I was psychic" and spamming me with crystal ball emojis, just because I stated that I accurately predicted certain things about the projected IFR, peak of cases, and policy decisions (which I predicted with research and common sense, not any clairvoyant abilities!) Another person accused me of being a "Nazi who supports eugenics" and said that I wanted her grandparents to die so that I could personally profit off the economy being open (????), simply because I said that high-risk people should be locked down but low-risk people shouldn't, and that the lockdowns cause deaths too. I lost one friend, who I had been friends with for years, because she accused me of "distorting the facts to promote a political agenda" when I stated (with no discussion of politics) that the IFR would turn out to be below 1%, and posted sources supporting that claim. She believed the IFR would turn out to be 4% or higher. Now it's consensus among researchers that the IFR is below 1% and possibly even below 0.5%...still haven't gotten an apology from her for being so hateful.
I've never gotten so much hate in my life, as I have since March when I discussed being anti-lockdown. I've lost so many friends and acquaintances over it, either because people blocked me once they started losing the argument, or because they got so nasty with their personal attacks once they started losing the argument, that I decided I wanted nothing more to do with them. When people resort to insults, it really signals that they have nothing substantiative to back up their argument. And I find that usually in these situations, I'm the only person posting sources to support my argument.
The funny thing is that almost everyone who accuses me of being ignorant, stupid, and "anti-science" doesn't even have any formal educational background in science, and hasn't taken a biology class since the 9th grade. They usually majored in some liberal arts field. Meanwhile, as I mentioned, I have a degree in molecular biology (from one of the top research universities in the US), and worked in research labs, including medical research, for a few years.
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laurenq1991 wrote: »
Yes, so, did the lockdown in NY/NJ accomplish anything? Did it even help to "flatten the curve" and slow the spread of cases? Or did the pre-lockdown community spread ensure sufficient population immunity, that the cases were going to peak in April either way?
We don't know for sure, but likely, yes, there would have been more deaths without the lockdown (such as it was). Italy is a comparison, where it seems shutting down reduced the cases.Also, why did other areas of the country lock down when the virus hadn't even spread there yet, and there was no curve to flatten? What did they expect would happen once they opened back up?
Like I said, I personally think we should have responded more regionally (on a formal basis).But were they less compliant than almost anywhere else on earth? Because the theory that "if we just behaved we would be done with this" seems to indicate that areas with the most deaths have the lowest levels of compliance. So by that measure, everyone in my area must have been out in March having wild parties every night and spitting on one another.
No, that's an oversimplification. No one is saying higher deaths is always about compliance. It seems to me obvious, in the US and Europe, that it has a lot more to do with other things too, like testing and tracing, population density, and how early the virus hit your area (i.e., extent to which you are an international hub with lots of travel). Also, things like reliance on public transit and extent of multi-generational families. I could likely come up with a whole lot more, but those seem like big things. Within communities, though, you can certainly see examples of non-compliance leading to outbreaks (and those events are similar to ones that led to outbreaks before we all knew better -- there are obvious likely super-spreader events, and we are seeing it now with college kids and parties).What would a "hard lockdown" accomplish? Even if we did a "hard lockdown," all it would take is a few undetected cases to cause cases to spike again once everything opened back up. Which is exactly what happened in NZ.
NZ's cases were from abroad. NZ has been generally open, because they managed to shut the border, quarantine those coming in, and thus have no community spread. What that means is that they should be able to get the current (very small, vs the US, it's crazy you seem to think we have any grounds to say they are not doing well) number of cases down to 0 pretty quickly, as they have a system in place and few enough cases that they can do real contact tracing and quarantine.
But to answer the question -- I think a hard lockdown combined with getting testing really up to speed early on would have allowed us to get cases down to a low enough number that we could be testing and tracing and could open schools (here stores are already open and restaurants for outside service, so schools are the main thing that I am concerned about being closed).They're [AU and NZ] at the very beginning of the outbreak. Their options are either to never open up again until a vaccine (which could take years), or to open up and get into the same situation the US and Europe are in. The point was that even they haven't been able to eradicate COVID-19 despite being geographically isolated, low-population nations, that did "hard lockdowns."
They aren't closed. They are merely closed to other countries, but for those quarantining. As it gets more in control in the rest of the world, that will change, and yes part of all this depends on whether we can get good vaccine or treatments.Which places [can return to normal]? Certainly not Australia and NZ, where you can't even go outside without being harassed by the police.
I think you've been reading some bad sources, because Australia has had schools open, and is certainly not entirely shut down. That people WITH the illness are quarantined doesn't mean everyone must stay indoors.
It's quite normal in much of the country, as I understand it, but for no big gatherings (which Sweden also does not have). They are not on a hard lockdown. They do quarantine, since shutting the border and quarantining those returning from elsewhere was how they got this under control, as well as lots of early testing. It is easier for Australia in some ways as they have a much lower population more concentrated in specific areas and are apparently able to shut borders between their (much fewer number of) states, but it would have been nice if we'd really tried something like they are doing. Would have been too late for NY metro and probably various other areas (like Chicago, where I am), but I think it would likely have resulted in a better result than what we have now.
Thus, masks are at least one thing we can do that should help some. Like I said before, I really don't get the reaction.
I will also just note that the mask shaming stuff that you are complaining about is something I see in my area too (although absolutely no one is actually confrontational about it -- maybe it's the midwest vs.NJ -- mostly it's people complaining on NextDoor in a way that is, IMO, often overthetop or about people not wearing them when they in fact can socially distance). I might agree with you on some of that. But where we are seem to be atypical. What people have reported from other areas of the country (and even other parts of my state, from what I hear from some friends) is people being mocked or glared out for wearing masks and others not respecting store rules or just a general very low level of mask wearing and social distancing. I think the latter is not too surprising if in an area with little outbreak so far, but anti mask stuff is just really weird. I think it's because it's unfortunately been politicized, but who knows. (Non-compliance in general hardly goes by political lines, though -- I don't think that.)9 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.4
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.
There are many reasons why I disagree with this comment. Aside from any facts I could look up and reference, here's the biggest reason why I don't believe in conspiracy theories: human nature.
We can't even cooperate with our allies and business partners over trade deals and other ordinary things. We disagree with each other over everything, from politics to religion to recycling. Human beings are a mess.
Yet, a whole bunch of large organizations are supposed to be working together in some shadowy plot to lie to us and program us -- for freaking what reason? People have never been able to organize worldwide over anything for long.
I wholeheartedly believe people swallow conspiracy theories because:
(1) it's easier than facing reality, which is not only scary, but shows humans have no control over a lot of things
(2) you can bond with others who believe in the same conspiracies and feel you're "right" and "know the truth"
Why has any nation wanted to rule the World? Why have people like Hitler existed? Power and control. If you think this virus is any different, you are blind. This virus was no mistake, it was man made in China. It has been used to spread fear. Is it real, yes. So is the Flu. Lets shut the Country down every Flu season.
You seriously cannot believe this.
Let me guess, you believe everything the Government tells you?
No, I believe science. They are sequencing this virus. It has already been shown that this virus is not man-made. That was months ago.
Who showed that, exactly?
I tried to dig back into all this. It goes all the way back to February/March, and its been hard finding the articles again. Much of what I dug into came from This Week in Virology, which is a group of virologists who have been presenting information on this since January/February. I posted a link to one of the early podcasts that discussed the conspiracy theories. I don't have time to listen again to hear their source (but they are good about backing things up with science. These guys are freaking awesome.). I also linked to an episode of TwiEvo (this week in evolution). They have several episodes following the evolution of this virus. If I can I find my more specific stuff, I will come back. I know someone in my facebook friends has what I'm looking for!
https://microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-588/
https://microbe.tv/twievo/twievo-52/
Proof that COVID-19 was deliberately created in a lab is pretty much the definition of "big, if true" news. If the only thing you can find to support the claim is a podcast, I'm going to conclude that it has not, in fact, "already been shown" to be true months ago. I have no doubt that people on podcasts were making the claim months ago, but that is very different from something having "already been shown" in a way that is reliable.
I have no doubt that your friends on Facebook will support your claim and provide you with lots of podcast links, YouTube videos, and various blogs to support the claim. It's pretty much what Facebook is famous for at this point. It's the throbbing, teeming center of our current crisis of misinformation and conspiracy theories.
If you ever do find any reputable sources for the claim, I'd love to evaluate them.
Wrong person you think was sharing this.
DNARules said NOT created in lab and you asked where that was from.
Info is other direction.
Oops, @DNARules I am so sorry for misreading what you wrote. We can file this under "me needing to read EVERY word of a post."
Thanks for the correction.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.
There are many reasons why I disagree with this comment. Aside from any facts I could look up and reference, here's the biggest reason why I don't believe in conspiracy theories: human nature.
We can't even cooperate with our allies and business partners over trade deals and other ordinary things. We disagree with each other over everything, from politics to religion to recycling. Human beings are a mess.
Yet, a whole bunch of large organizations are supposed to be working together in some shadowy plot to lie to us and program us -- for freaking what reason? People have never been able to organize worldwide over anything for long.
I wholeheartedly believe people swallow conspiracy theories because:
(1) it's easier than facing reality, which is not only scary, but shows humans have no control over a lot of things
(2) you can bond with others who believe in the same conspiracies and feel you're "right" and "know the truth"
Why has any nation wanted to rule the World? Why have people like Hitler existed? Power and control. If you think this virus is any different, you are blind. This virus was no mistake, it was man made in China. It has been used to spread fear. Is it real, yes. So is the Flu. Lets shut the Country down every Flu season.
You seriously cannot believe this.
Let me guess, you believe everything the Government tells you?
No, I believe science. They are sequencing this virus. It has already been shown that this virus is not man-made. That was months ago.
Who showed that, exactly?
I tried to dig back into all this. It goes all the way back to February/March, and its been hard finding the articles again. Much of what I dug into came from This Week in Virology, which is a group of virologists who have been presenting information on this since January/February. I posted a link to one of the early podcasts that discussed the conspiracy theories. I don't have time to listen again to hear their source (but they are good about backing things up with science. These guys are freaking awesome.). I also linked to an episode of TwiEvo (this week in evolution). They have several episodes following the evolution of this virus. If I can I find my more specific stuff, I will come back. I know someone in my facebook friends has what I'm looking for!
https://microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-588/
https://microbe.tv/twievo/twievo-52/
Proof that COVID-19 was deliberately created in a lab is pretty much the definition of "big, if true" news. If the only thing you can find to support the claim is a podcast, I'm going to conclude that it has not, in fact, "already been shown" to be true months ago. I have no doubt that people on podcasts were making the claim months ago, but that is very different from something having "already been shown" in a way that is reliable.
I have no doubt that your friends on Facebook will support your claim and provide you with lots of podcast links, YouTube videos, and various blogs to support the claim. It's pretty much what Facebook is famous for at this point. It's the throbbing, teeming center of our current crisis of misinformation and conspiracy theories.
If you ever do find any reputable sources for the claim, I'd love to evaluate them.
Wow, that's not what I said at all. I said the evidence is strong that it is NOT created in a lab.
Also, I did say that I can't find the source, but the podcasts covered it well. And I highly recommend the podcasts. They are based on science. They are pretty awesome.
Yes, I am so sorry. I completely misread your post -- this was on me. Thanks for the podcast recommendation - I love science-based podcasts and I haven't heard this one yet.5 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."
Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?7 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
And 170,000 people have lost their lives. Let's not lose sight of that with all the concern for investments.
Those people WERE exposed to germs and it turned out to be a terrible thing for them.14 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."
Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.8 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."
Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.
Yeah, IMO, the consistent and regular use of PPE (and, of course, hygiene) IS the middle ground between lockdown and disregard for human life. It's not forever, it's until we get this under control.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I don't believe the numbers. We are being lied to. The CDC and the WHO are master manipulators. Even Dr. Fauci himself was seen not wearing his mask, nor social distancing. Yet, people hang on to his every word. You are being programed, if you believe anything the puppet masters say. Unplug yourself.
There are many reasons why I disagree with this comment. Aside from any facts I could look up and reference, here's the biggest reason why I don't believe in conspiracy theories: human nature.
We can't even cooperate with our allies and business partners over trade deals and other ordinary things. We disagree with each other over everything, from politics to religion to recycling. Human beings are a mess.
Yet, a whole bunch of large organizations are supposed to be working together in some shadowy plot to lie to us and program us -- for freaking what reason? People have never been able to organize worldwide over anything for long.
I wholeheartedly believe people swallow conspiracy theories because:
(1) it's easier than facing reality, which is not only scary, but shows humans have no control over a lot of things
(2) you can bond with others who believe in the same conspiracies and feel you're "right" and "know the truth"
Why has any nation wanted to rule the World? Why have people like Hitler existed? Power and control. If you think this virus is any different, you are blind. This virus was no mistake, it was man made in China. It has been used to spread fear. Is it real, yes. So is the Flu. Lets shut the Country down every Flu season.
You seriously cannot believe this.
Let me guess, you believe everything the Government tells you?
No, I believe science. They are sequencing this virus. It has already been shown that this virus is not man-made. That was months ago.
Who showed that, exactly?
I tried to dig back into all this. It goes all the way back to February/March, and its been hard finding the articles again. Much of what I dug into came from This Week in Virology, which is a group of virologists who have been presenting information on this since January/February. I posted a link to one of the early podcasts that discussed the conspiracy theories. I don't have time to listen again to hear their source (but they are good about backing things up with science. These guys are freaking awesome.). I also linked to an episode of TwiEvo (this week in evolution). They have several episodes following the evolution of this virus. If I can I find my more specific stuff, I will come back. I know someone in my facebook friends has what I'm looking for!
https://microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-588/
https://microbe.tv/twievo/twievo-52/
Proof that COVID-19 was deliberately created in a lab is pretty much the definition of "big, if true" news. If the only thing you can find to support the claim is a podcast, I'm going to conclude that it has not, in fact, "already been shown" to be true months ago. I have no doubt that people on podcasts were making the claim months ago, but that is very different from something having "already been shown" in a way that is reliable.
I have no doubt that your friends on Facebook will support your claim and provide you with lots of podcast links, YouTube videos, and various blogs to support the claim. It's pretty much what Facebook is famous for at this point. It's the throbbing, teeming center of our current crisis of misinformation and conspiracy theories.
If you ever do find any reputable sources for the claim, I'd love to evaluate them.
Wow, that's not what I said at all. I said the evidence is strong that it is NOT created in a lab.
Also, I did say that I can't find the source, but the podcasts covered it well. And I highly recommend the podcasts. They are based on science. They are pretty awesome.
Yes, I am so sorry. I completely misread your post -- this was on me. Thanks for the podcast recommendation - I love science-based podcasts and I haven't heard this one yet.
No worries. I love the podcasts, although now that I am teaching from home and not commuting 2 hours, I don't get to listen often anymore. But I know they aren't real proof for either side of the argument. I did agree with you on that part.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."
Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.
Yeah, IMO, the consistent and regular use of PPE (and, of course, hygiene) IS the middle ground between lockdown and disregard for human life. It's not forever, it's until we get this under control.
100% agree.5 -
Also to laurenq1991. You do realise the people being kept in quarantine in Australia are staying in rather nice hotels? They aren't being forced to stay in a hell hole. It isn't that they are put in some jail. Yes maybe now they have to pay to stay now but it's not a bad place to be but they knew they would have to right now. Don't travel if you can't afford the stay in a nice hotel for two weeks. I have paid to stay in some of them for vacation so I don't care what it's called it's still nice hotels, you are just doing what you should be doing to stop the spread of the virus. It's not hard. You get meals delivered and all the mod cons lay back, watch TV or work from there if you can.. no big deal.
Also how does you writing about the Spanish flu make you anymore expert than someone that didn't? That means zero.8 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I think that the lockdowns were a huge step, and they came at a terrifying cost. I can absolutely understand why so many are angry about all that. However, I think it's a mistake to say that ALL mitigations are unnecessary. In essence, that is the same as saying "People who are at high risk SHOULD lose their lives' work or their jobs or their freedom." In other words ... the people at high risk should pay the price for the herd's freedom."
Isn't it likely that the answer is somewhere between the extremes of lockdowns on one side and utter lack of compassion on the other?
Thinking of this scenario in regards to school right now.
A lot of teachers in our district are older and high-risk for other reasons - and home is the safest place for them - the increased risk and exposure that would happen going back to school just isn't going to be worth it for many of them and they have expressed that.
Trying to imagine the schools, or any workplace for that matter - what do they say or do to those that for their own high risk personal safety say they can't come in?
Lose their jobs, Dr's order, regulations a business can't fire over it, forced to help employee work from home if possible?
As disagreeable as so many appear to be about masks, or not really adhering to good cleaning protocols in the first place (a mask with doing other things wrong doesn't help much) - just makes me wonder how many changes would be made to keep things safer.
And while many actions are feel good (spray down the carts for me, but everything else in the store getting touched negates that - just give some sanitizer on the way out the door), and some are not fail-safe, they can at least lower the dosage you might say.
Always about dosage it seems.4 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.
Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?
(Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)
This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???5 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.
Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?
(Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)
This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
Oh and by the way we have ZERO Covid and NEVER had it in the community transferred yet in my region. I AM smug about that. We did great. Can't say it'll stay the same but it's not happened yet. I do hope you go better there.6 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.
Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?
(Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)
This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
They've had, what, five new cases in the last 24 hours and less than 1,700 total confirmed and probable cases overall? As an American, I'd love to be in that situation.8 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.5
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Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
This seems very cynical considering that you've argued above that the death and infection rates have been inflated in an attempt to gain control over the population.
So what is it? A non-risk that is being exploited? Or a risk so profound that even decent masks, handwashing, and consistent practice of social distancing can't help us control it?13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.
Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?
(Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)
This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
They've had, what, five new cases in the last 24 hours and less than 1,700 total confirmed and probable cases overall? As an American, I'd love to be in that situation.
Yes and my whole state had one case today and it's usually zero.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »I don't know about NZ but in my opinion although Vic and NSW are doing it tough I think the rest of Australia isn't doing too bad.
Yes, but, by the "logic" of "we would have been done with this if everyone followed the rules," New Zealand and Australia should have eradicated it by now, considering they have the harshest lockdown rules in the world outside of China. I seem to recall when New Zealand claimed to have zero cases, a lot of smug posturing from them about how they eradicated it because they "behaved," whereas people in other countries supposedly didn't. Well, that didn't work out for them very well, did it?
(Of course, don't ask them what the long-term plan would be even if they did eradicate it....)
This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
They've had, what, five new cases in the last 24 hours and less than 1,700 total confirmed and probable cases overall? As an American, I'd love to be in that situation.
Yes and my whole state had one case today and it's usually zero.
My state had 567 new cases reported yesterday and we're not even one of the badly hit ones. About 1,800 dead overall and almost 67,000 people who will be living with the uncertain post-infection health impacts.2 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you.
I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important. 1 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.13 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
Correct. Keep your distance from others, I think that is the most important thing. I do it and we have no Covid here right now other than from a cargo ship with two people from overseas in our hospital.5 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you. I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.5 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.4 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
It really isn't though. All the campaigns I have seen make it pretty clear that the effort is to help those around you and it''s delivered as a really simple thing that you can do that might help.11 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you. I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.
Hi, you do you. I won't if we ever get the virus here in the community. I hope you are happy to spread it. I am not. I can do without being in a restaurant if it even needs to happen. I can eat still lol. Anyway no one will change your mind to caring about others. Selfish it is.11 -
[I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.
So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here.
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.
Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?2 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »[I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.
So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here.
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.
Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?
Ok well not looked into it but isn't the government taking care of them? They are here.0 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.
The problem is that it never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
You're literally making a smug post about how your country "behaved," in order to tell me that people in your country weren't acting smug about zero cases and claiming they "behaved."
Call me back in two years and let me know how it all turned out over there in the end. All you guys are doing is delaying cases.Also to laurenq1991. You do realise the people being kept in quarantine in Australia are staying in rather nice hotels? They aren't being forced to stay in a hell hole. It isn't that they are put in some jail. Yes maybe now they have to pay to stay now but it's not a bad place to be but they knew they would have to right now. Don't travel if you can't afford the stay in a nice hotel for two weeks. I have paid to stay in some of them for vacation so I don't care what it's called it's still nice hotels, you are just doing what you should be doing to stop the spread of the virus. It's not hard. You get meals delivered and all the mod cons lay back, watch TV or work from there if you can.. no big deal.
You mean like the people who were imprisoned in their low-income apartments in Melbourne with no food, medication, or baby formula? Yeah, this sure looks like a five-star hotel to me!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/14/police-presence-at-melbourne-towers-was-dehumanising-infectious-disease-doctor-says
https://au.news.yahoo.com/tower-lockdowns-spark-dozens-complaints-004300913--spt.html
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2020/07/06/public-housing-lockdown-coronavirus/
"Residents yelling for help from windows, friends turned away from dropping off care packages and masked police officers at the end of every corridor.
This is the scene for about 3000 residents trapped inside public housing towers brought under sudden lockdown in Melbourne."
"But the tense atmosphere outside a public housing block in Flemington tells a different story.
There, residents said they feel more like they’re in jail.
On Sunday, cries for help could be heard coming from the flats at 12 Holland Court.
A sign plastered onto a fifth-floor window read: ‘Treat us as humans, not caged animals’."
"In one instance, Mr Ige said it took the Department of Health and Human Services “at least 24 hours to deliver baby formula”.
Alkira Austin, a 27-year-old Gunditjmara woman, said one family had to wait 18 hours before they were delivered any food packages.
“And the food packages were so basic – just pasta and sauce, and no bread or milk,” Ms Austin told The New Daily."
And these nice hotels are so great, that the people in them want to kill themselves and "distressed children" are spreading human waste on the walls, and the guards ignore it.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/victorian-coronavirus-hotel-quarantine-inquiry-told-dhhs-staff-ignored-suicide-threats-lost-track-of-guests-at-parkroyal/ar-BB18aJMk
"Meanwhile, a Melbourne lawyer who stayed at the Rydges Hotel has revealed images showing the filthy room he and his family were asked to stay in, which included discarded gloves on the floor, scraps of food and a blood-stained doona."
"Jen said this resulted in daily welfare checks not being conducted on a family for a week.
"It was very obvious that DHHS were having a hard time keeping a track of who was in the hotel and when," she said."
"Another woman suffering "excruciating" pain from endometriosis was denied access to a kettle to boil water by DHHS staff, Jen said. The kettle was to be used to boil water to make herbal medicine that the woman regularly used while suffering the condition.
"They were in so much pain it was affecting their speech," Jen said."
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/kids-spread-human-waste-covid-hotel/4081360/
"It is thought the family's distressed children spread human waste in the room."2
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