Keto
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉
It would be much different because keto is the *HOT* thing for weight loss right now. The issue is with people who believe keto is magic. I work with a BUNCH of those people and 🙄 make that face at them ALL DAY.
If low carb works for you, awesome. I would be miserable. If you are doing keto because you think somehow that carbs are evil and the ONLY way to lose weight is to go low carb, then you are mistaken.
I’ve been around long enough to know the regulars (most of them anyway) understand that keto isn’t magic, but many newbies are under the impression that it is.
I have YET to see that with a vegan/vegetarian thread (with one exception where someone didn’t understand how they could go vegan and GAIN weight as if CICO doesn’t apply to vegans).3 -
Dogmom1978 wrote: »I have YET to see that with a vegan/vegetarian thread (with one exception where someone didn’t understand how they could go vegan and GAIN weight as if CICO doesn’t apply to vegans).
I can attest that they exist...I guess I've been around on MFP (8 years now!) long enough that it's run the gamut. Usually it was something like "meat and dairy are evil and cause weight gain!" or something similar, usually accompanied by a YouTube "science" video. Typically I'd see it a lot with commenters to the standard "why am I not losing weight?" posts too..("I went vegan and lost 50 pounds just by cutting out meat and dairy!!") The recent WFPB trend seems to have restarted some of those ideas, especially in FB groups.
Honestly kind of seems like keto has been on the decline lately compared to what it used to be...but maybe that's just ny observation.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉
Could be. I'm sure you, as a mod, read more of 'em than I do.
Could also have something to do, in a statistical sense, with the recent mythologizing of keto, and the baselessly-soothing recent effect of "Game Changers" when it comes to vegan nutrition. 😉 Popular culture has effects, not always good ones. Maybe even "not usually". 😆
(I took that photo myself, pre-pandemic, at my local Barnes & Noble. Not cherry picked in any way, just a photo of the "diet" section of magazines. Trend-o-meter reading: Vegan, 4; Keto, 8. And some of those cover-teasers make keto advocates look kinda silly (I hate when they do that to vegetarianism! 😆)
I hope you know that I appreciate your intelligence, experience, and insight on these threads, Psu. I also know this is a continuing digression, and recognize that I'm just random-chatting. 😬2 -
As someone with a foot in both camps, I definitely see more pushback against low carb and keto. Some of that is legitimate questions/comments, for example if someone posts that they are struggling with keto it's perfectly fine to ask why the person is doing keto, and that it's not necessary for weight loss. The thing is, that 'you don't have to do keto' thing also gets thrown out as soon as someone even mentions it, without struggle. I don't see that happening as often with vegan/vegetarian threads, outside of the pushback Ann mentions (perfectly valid) when people say they are adopting one of those for weight loss.
Yes, there is an ungodly amount of woo, myth, and misinformation around keto. IMHO that includes that it is inherently difficult or unsustainable.4 -
dragon_girl26 wrote: »Dogmom1978 wrote: »I have YET to see that with a vegan/vegetarian thread (with one exception where someone didn’t understand how they could go vegan and GAIN weight as if CICO doesn’t apply to vegans).
I can attest that they exist...I guess I've been around on MFP (8 years now!) long enough that it's run the gamut. Usually it was something like "meat and dairy are evil and cause weight gain!" or something similar, usually accompanied by a YouTube "science" video. Typically I'd see it a lot with commenters to the standard "why am I not losing weight?" posts too..("I went vegan and lost 50 pounds just by cutting out meat and dairy!!") The recent WFPB trend seems to have restarted some of those ideas, especially in FB groups.
Honestly kind of seems like keto has been on the decline lately compared to what it used to be...but maybe that's just ny observation.
This is what I see too. I almost wrote an overly long post, but you said it better than I would have.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉
Could be. I'm sure you, as a mod, read more of 'em than I do.
Could also have something to do, in a statistical sense, with the recent mythologizing of keto, and the baselessly-soothing recent effect of "Game Changers" when it comes to vegan nutrition. 😉 Popular culture has effects, not always good ones. Maybe even "not usually". 😆
(I took that photo myself, pre-pandemic, at my local Barnes & Noble. Not cherry picked in any way, just a photo of the "diet" section of magazines. Trend-o-meter reading: Vegan, 4; Keto, 8. And some of those cover-teasers make keto advocates look kinda silly (I hate when they do that to vegetarianism! 😆)
I actually think vegan (or WFPB) keto seems on the rise, and IF/other forms of "fasting" remain very trendy, even though those mags don't seem to focus on either (I see both WFPB people and keto people all into fasting, as well as those who don't follow either way of eating).
But some of this depends on the publications/sources one looks at and where one lives. (Where I live it's not keto and not so much WFPB, but just all the "wellness" stuff ad infinitum.) Re what certain magazines say (often not aimed at those up on the latest trend, probably, remember that there were some claiming low fat was still being promoted way after many of us thought that was super passe. I think some kinds of sources (certain kinds of mags, for example) tend to lag behind the times a bit.)
But who knows.
I do think people HERE seem much more aware that cals are what matter, regardless of macros, than some of the warnings about that seem to suggest, and newbies doing keto don't strike me as more likely to have misunderstandings than newbies doing other forms of weight loss efforts. But, again, eh. Magical claims about anything tend to bug me, and I think my cred in that regard is pretty well established!3 -
Dogmom1978 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉
It would be much different because keto is the *HOT* thing for weight loss right now. The issue is with people who believe keto is magic. I work with a BUNCH of those people and 🙄 make that face at them ALL DAY.
If low carb works for you, awesome. I would be miserable. If you are doing keto because you think somehow that carbs are evil and the ONLY way to lose weight is to go low carb, then you are mistaken.
I’ve been around long enough to know the regulars (most of them anyway) understand that keto isn’t magic, but many newbies are under the impression that it is.
I have YET to see that with a vegan/vegetarian thread (with one exception where someone didn’t understand how they could go vegan and GAIN weight as if CICO doesn’t apply to vegans).
I would be miserable on a WFPB or vegan diet. Doesn't mean I go into them telling people there are other ways as a precaution. In fact, the only time i even say anything in those is when its misinformation about protein. I stay out because there are far more experienced people on this board like Ann and Jane. And i know they will find those threads.
And btw, i have been here over 11 years. WFPB diet has been talked about for awhile (especially after documentaries like game changers). It gets periods of trendiness. Paleo was big for a few years. And lately its been more IF.5 -
@psuLemon it is perfectly normal for the regulars to question a new person who starts a thread called “keto” and asks if anyone else is doing it as to WHY they started keto. Just like with vegan, IF, carnivore, south beach, etc etc. anytime someone announces that they started a fad diet, those of us who have been around awhile are checking to make sure new people started THAT diet for the RIGHT reasons and not just because they read some nonsense where they would lose more weight because “unicorn farts”.
All different approaches work for different people. 1 person I work with has been doing keto for over 5 years and has kept the weight off. We wear photo ids. Keto might be so popular where I work because his badge photo has him being very obese and he is a normal weight now.
Keto is so popular at this company because of 1 person that when I decided to lose weight again and quietly started doing so at work, once it was noticeable people started saying things like “oh I didn’t know you were doing keto also” 🤦♀️.
So yes, anytime anyone starts a thread with “I started x diet anyone else doing x diet?” I’m going to ask some questions about what made you choose X diet and why do you think it will work for you? Too many people get discouraged quickly when the fad diet they have chosen doesn’t work out and they disappear. I’m simply just trying to take what I’ve learned along the way to help guide them in the right direction. If the right direction for that person is keto and they understand that it works the SAME as any other diet choice, fantastic! It’s always awesome when new people find the thing that will help them succeed.
As an FYI, been on here for over 5 years, so I’ve see many people and fads come and go.3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
At least in my observation, if it comes across (either deliberately or through ambiguity) that someone is adopting veganism or a WFPB diet as a method of weight management, that DOES often turn into an extended discussion and people are also told not to do something for weight loss if they don't want to do it for the rest of their lives.
I'm not saying that justifies what often happens on keto threads, I think we're just seeing that the general culture of this discussion forum is one that is opposed to anything perceived as a short term plan or an extreme dietary change designed to manage weight.
I think there are some GOOD things about that general culture, in that the predominant message in society is that we can "fix" our weight through the latest fad. There are also some things that are more negative, in that it misses a lot of the nuance of how long term maintainers actually manage their weight. The truth is that MANY of us adopt short term changes to help cut calories if the scale creeps up -- we'll do keto, or skip dessert, or stop having a starch with dinner. Not because we think certain foods are bad, but because we've identified the least painful ways for us to temporarily cut calories. When I get in my "danger zone," I'll just automatically cut back on the bread, pasta, and rice for a bit because I know that I won't miss them as much as I miss other foods. There's no intention to eat that way forever, the goal is to introduce a small deficit to get back into my preferred weight range.
Edit: To be clear, I think the mere mentioning of keto is more likely to get people in the thread talking about how you don't have to do keto, even if the OP doesn't do anything to suggest that they feel keto is required for weight loss. I would be incredibly frustrated if every mention of veganism was treated the same way.3 -
Dogmom1978 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Agreeing with both Lemur and Ann.
Also, why is there this automatic assumption that things like keto, or even low carb, aren't sustainable for the long term? Some people actually like eating keto, and may be perfectly happy to eat that way the majority of the time going forward. Personally, I wouldn't want to do 'traditional' keto (ie high fat and very low carb) either for weight loss nor as my 'normal', but I recognise that other people may, and may be perfectly happy and satisfied. There are also people who do it for medical reasons, or because they genuinely believe they feel better. Same with low carb. And actually, my maintenance diet is still generally lower carb (actually just checked back in my diary, and mostly I'd be eating around the 150g total carb mark on an average day, with higher days here and there). That's just how I eat when I'm being a healthy, mindful adult (not that I think eating higher carb is unhealthy or unmindful).
Diet breaks are super handy for maintenance practice. I highly recommend them, for multiple reasons.
OP, apologies for the thread hijack!
The thing that drives me nuts is that every keto/low carb thread has to divulge into arguing over semantics, but that same level of scrutiny is not applied to WFPB and vegan threads, which comes with just as high for failure and other semantics that if not address can actually cause malnutrition (i.e., lack of b12 or iron deficiencies).
The simple fact is all plans fail when there is not a long term plan to transition out. That doesn't matter if it's LCHF, vegan, zone, Med, etc... And I certainly recognize that the more flexible diets tend to have high success rates. But I also recognize that people often have to try several different strategies before they find the solution that works. So if this strategy seems appealing to the OP, then it doesn't need to be a debating on why.
Wellll . . . I think there's some "eye of the observer" in that observation. (I do agree with your main point. What I disagree with is that keto is a special victim of hate in some way. Does it get some? Sure. Asking "could you keep this up forever" (or at least "longish term") is IMO a useful thought-point, for any dietary mode someone's considering. It's not necessarily and always synonymous with "don't even think of doing this if you can't keep going forever".)
There's weirdness that routinely hits vegan/vegetarian threads, too, though I admit it has a little different cast to it. ("you can't get enough protein to build muscle" has been a common thing, although the otherwise pretty execrable "Game Changers" has perhaps moderated that myth in the popular imagination.)
Part of the reason is that people are often adopting vegan/vegetarian eating for reasons in addition to (or completely separate from) weight management, usually something about avoiding animal exploitation, reducing environmental impact of one' eating, or that sort of thing.
Frankly, if I see a thread from someone who seems to be saying they're going vegetarian *just* in order to lose weight or for improved health (no other reasons), I routinely push back on that . . . even though I'm long-term vegetarian. For health or weight management, it's tangent to the important issues (nutrition and calories), and can distract from them; plus being vegetarian is slightly more difficult (nutritionally and especially socially) than being an omnivore.
Most people who are starting keto (that we see here) are doing it for weight management. Some of them are doing it because of popular mythology lately that it's somehow required to go low carb, or one can't lose weight. (I know you, Psu - and Nony - are much better informed that that . . . MUCH. And even I, who would never consider low carb personally - absent a health condition requiring it - recognize that carb reduction can have appetite control benefits for some people.)
It's pretty common for vegetarians here to think people here pick on vegetarians, IF-ers to think people pick on IF-ers, and so forth. Yeah, some people pick on things they don't do themselves, but I think we all tend to notice more when our own modes are criticized, especially when unreasonably criticized. That little burst of emotion cements the memory.
. . . speaking of digression. 😉😆
I bet if you pulled the latest 10 keto threads and 10 last plant based threads, the response would be significantly different. 😉
It would be much different because keto is the *HOT* thing for weight loss right now. The issue is with people who believe keto is magic. I work with a BUNCH of those people and 🙄 make that face at them ALL DAY.
If low carb works for you, awesome. I would be miserable. If you are doing keto because you think somehow that carbs are evil and the ONLY way to lose weight is to go low carb, then you are mistaken.
I’ve been around long enough to know the regulars (most of them anyway) understand that keto isn’t magic, but many newbies are under the impression that it is.
I have YET to see that with a vegan/vegetarian thread (with one exception where someone didn’t understand how they could go vegan and GAIN weight as if CICO doesn’t apply to vegans).
They aren't as common, but they've been out there over the years. I've seen people argue that it's impossible for a body to have excess weight if you're doing veganism "right" or that dairy makes you gain weight automatically, etc.3 -
To the OP, since its been almost a week now I hope you come back and tell us about your experience with keto so far! Its great that you and your husband are doing this together...seems like it can be a little easier when more than one person in the household is on board. Hopefully you are both successful and are able to work your way towards better health!4
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dragon_girl26 wrote: »To the OP, since its been almost a week now I hope you come back and tell us about your experience with keto so far! Its great that you and your husband are doing this together...seems like it can be a little easier when more than one person in the household is on board. Hopefully you are both successful and are able to work your way towards better health!
Thank you so much. We have both lost 5 pounds in the first 5 days. We aren’t super strict, more so making sure we are staying under calories and just keeping the carbs down by being more aware of what we are putting in our mouth. There’s a lot of strong opinions on the thread. Everyone bickering because they “have been on this site x years” and everyone always knows more than everyone else. Pretty funny I got called “new”. I’ve been a member since 2009. For the first 6 years I logged on religiously and did very well. I got divorced, remarried, life happened and things changed. Now I want to start over again and work on me and us. I appreciate you checking in with me and not adding to the bickering. 🤗
5 -
Dogmom1978 wrote: »Just curious, if counting calories worked for you years ago, why are you now going to go keto??
Yea We are counting calories also. The keto part because I’m trying to work on my husbands liver. He’s not a drinker at all, but the dr said he has a fatty liver. I need to get him down some weight. I know he won’t do it alone, and if we can kind of go slow with lower carbs then I’ll take it.
A high fat diet is not recommended for someone with fatty liver disease.2 -
dragon_girl26 wrote: »To the OP, since its been almost a week now I hope you come back and tell us about your experience with keto so far! Its great that you and your husband are doing this together...seems like it can be a little easier when more than one person in the household is on board. Hopefully you are both successful and are able to work your way towards better health!
Thank you so much. We have both lost 5 pounds in the first 5 days. We aren’t super strict, more so making sure we are staying under calories and just keeping the carbs down by being more aware of what we are putting in our mouth. There’s a lot of strong opinions on the thread. Everyone bickering because they “have been on this site x years” and everyone always knows more than everyone else. Pretty funny I got called “new”. I’ve been a member since 2009. For the first 6 years I logged on religiously and did very well. I got divorced, remarried, life happened and things changed. Now I want to start over again and work on me and us. I appreciate you checking in with me and not adding to the bickering. 🤗
Sounds good.0 -
To the OP, I'd be happy to be a MFP friend on our keto journey! I did the keto diet for a year, lost a ton of weight and felt great, gained a bunch during emotional eating with COVID and not being active, and started again 4 months ago. So far I have actually reached my goal weight but to be smack in the middle of a healthy BMI I want to lose about 10 more lbs. I am always trying to learn as much as I can about the diet, and it always helps to have friends on keto, since it is controversial. I'm really glad to hear you and your husband are doing this together. I'm doing this separate from my husband, but he works out like a madman so he is already super fit and has a generally healthy diet. I could not do keto if he was bringing ice cream home! Congrats on the weight loss so far...I find that in the beginning you lose quickly and then the rate of weight loss slows as you get closer and closer to your goal. You got this!2
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I hate to be a 🦖 dinosaur but could someone please tell me what the acronym OP is?0
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