Doctor wants me to try low fat plant based diet. Very difficult, need resources.
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'This is why it's so important to take advice from people who study the field and most importantly, a set of specialized doctor that can evaluate each case.
But in general, a disease of overproduction of glucose would benefit from a diet lower in glucose. Not saying keto, but lower carb.
If anything, if SFA are concern from a metabolic standpoint, I would think a LC Mediterranean Diet would be a great place. Fibrous plants (especially Avocado), EVOO, low red meat, and plenty of lean proteins and fatty fish. Its a great place to get essential and super healthy nutrients."
Fish, fish, fish. It's what's for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I eat a lorra lorra fish. That's ^^^ exactly how I pulled myself out of a tailspin with T2, @psuLemon. You're right on the money.
I have wild caught salmon from AK, have relatives there. I fish for my own trout. When things start to go sideways with blood glucose I'm right back to fish, fish, fish. It keeps me right in the pocket.
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@psuLemon and @magnusthenerd if you're out there.
Yesterday, magnus said a 'fat one becomes a sugar one'. Boom.
When I was 20 years old, I went to the endocrinologist. He told me that I was going to end up with T2. I said, Ahhh, hail nooo, I won't. He said, yes you will.
He reviewed my tests but he told me that he could tell just by examining the outward signs, too. Carrying excess weight in my belly and keeping over 30 lbs for X amount of time in that belly area for usually a decade or more is another marker. I call it the hard turtle shell. If you've got the hard turtle shell, you can thump it and it sounds just like a good watermelon when it's ready.
I was in denial then and I didn't listen. I kick my own rearend for not listening. Binge eating goes hand in hand with diabetes. It's the precursor and it's another marker. A ravenous appetite that will not be abated. No shut-off or satiety valve. Magnus and PLemon, you're sooo right.
I didn't have all of this ammo info when I was 20. I had to learn everything the hard way and it's been a really rough road. One of out three have diabetes. My endo said there was no such thing as prediabetes, you've either got it or you don't. He said I had it and I just wouldn't listen. Now here I am trying to make up for the lost years.
If you're out there. Don't let another another day pass you by. With every passing day and year the ground grows colder. Thanks for sharing the truth Lemon and Magnus, even when it hurts. I'm listening now.0 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »Would this be a nutritional coach or chiropractor recommending this. I personally don't know of any licensed dietitians or medical professionals recommending anything like this for T2.
There definitely are some, and there are some quite good results for some with T2D following a WFPB diet. Sounds non ideal for OP, however.3 -
Are you measuring your blood sugar only after the meal, or also again a decent amount of time later? If it comes back down again reasonably well, it may not be as much of a problem as you think. Maybe a time test of your blood sugar levels to get your typical curve would be helpful if you haven't already done that.
I wonder if you might be better off with easing into a plant-based diet so you can figure things out, rather than an all or nothing approach.
Making sure you eat carbohydrates along with foods that slow down absorption can also help (fats and proteins). Hence apples and peanut butter can be a good snack for diabetics. Too much protein can actually be a problem, though not so likely for a non-carnivore.
Have you looked at any of Jason Fung's work? He is a Canadian nephrologist. I just have the kindle sample for his book The Diabetes Code. But he's a good researcher and clinician so there may be ideas for you in there or on his web site. I ran into his work long ago when translating something relevant and was impressed (I'm a chemist and have done a lot of biochemical/ pharmaceutical/ biomedical/ clinical trial translation work). He has interesting thoughts on obesity also.0 -
Here I am after about a year of seeing the endocrinologist and following her recommendations. She has me on a low carb (not vegan) diet and it has been working well to keep sugars within target, without having to use medications. We did a continuous glucose monitor for a month to reveal the daily patterns. There is something weird about my pancreas in which it doesn't bother putting out insulin until an hour after I eat. (No wonder the metformin didn't work. It improves insulin sensitivity, but the insulin has to be there in the first place.) The good news is that low carb is easy and versatile for me, and filling. No difficulties keeping weight down, no big dips in energy and so forth, and also, no more sugar crashes. Regular GP *keeps* trying to push veganism whereupon I remind her that I am following the diet given by the endocrinologist. Lather rinse repeat. It's all become rather silly at this point to have to discuss it with the GP at all.
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It's simple.
carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young.
Any questions?
Explain the blue zones to me please11 -
Dr. McDougall is probably the leading expert when it comes to low fat veganism. He has decades of research on low fat.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/1 -
Your doctor is totally clueless. I should know. I"m a retired physician who gave the same absolutely STUPID low fat advice to my patients. I simply didn't know better.
I'm also T2D. I diagnosed myself in 2005. Fatty liver diagnosed in 1992. My T2D is in complete remission. Without meds. I have NORMAL blood sugars.
As a diabetic you need to eat an ANIMAL based diet and follow these guidlines.
Phase 1 (Induction). This phase allows for 20–25 grams of net carbs per day until you are 15 pounds (7 kg) from your goal weight.
Phase 2. During this phase, you consume 25–50 grams of net carbs per day until you are 10 pounds (5 kg) from your goal weight.
Phase 3. Your net carb allowance is raised to 50–80 grams per day until you have met your goal weight and maintained it for 1 month.
Phase 4. During the final phase, you consume 80–100 grams of net carbs per day for ongoing weight maintenance.
You should also do IF (intermittant fasting). Start with 16:8 and close that window as much as you can.
I use an 18:6 IF. I also do a 48hr water fast twice a month.
I'm so sick and tired of watching doctors unintentionally killing people slowly with their crappy treatments and advice.
Seriously? Physician saying you need animal? I did not know doctors also are Certified Dieticians... oh also that everything works for everyone the same...
I must dispute and totally disagree. Seriously? While low fat is a misnomer for many NEEDING animal is ridiculous and very uneducated and uninformed..3 -
Vegan and plant based are different but have very common threads.1
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But you said:
"carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young"
Funny how people who on average live longer than the rest of the world eat carbs which you declare will make you get progressively sicker and die young. Apparently they don't
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@tsazani
You also included the Mediterranean diet which shockingly one of the blue zones follows but hey that diet is causing them to die young4 -
Yes I know quite a few Greeks who eat carbs and aren't animal based.
Plus who said I was plant based? I'm far from it. Vegetables tear my insides out but not because OMG they're evil carbs. I'm on a low fat diet for medical reasons (yes there are valid medical reasons to be low fat low fiber)I'm actually on one of the most processed diet you can imagine (j tube and specialty formula plus white carbs by mouth) and my labs have never been better and I'm not insulin resistant, diabetic or obese (I'm 5'8 108 lbs). Those carbs are lengthening my life.6 -
I've been Type 2 diabetic for 23 years and fat free vegan for the last 4 years. I went vegan to reverse heart disease and avoid bypass surgery. When I first started, it was a lot of baked potatoes, beans, and salad. Then I found Susan Voisin's blog called Fat Free Vegan. Her recipes taste like "real" food. From there, I built more repertoire by googling "vegan version of____". Whatever I was craving, somebody had figured out how to "veganize" it. If the recipe had fat or oil, I left it out. It's a process and a project. Something the docs and dieticians don't tell you is that when they want to induce diabetes in laboratory mice, they are fed extremely high fat diet. Not carbs. Not sugar. FAT. So your doctor is steering you in a good direction. There are also some "vegan meal plans" on the web that you can mix and match to your liking and to give you some more ideas. My dear husband went vegan with me and has loved every day of it. You can make good vegan recipes that fit in your normal food budget. Good luck.4
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Blue zones are easy. I live in one. My wife's grandma died at 110. Her hubby died at 101.
Nicoya Peninsula (Costa Rica): The Nicoya diet is based around beans and corn tortillas. The people of this area regularly perform physical jobs into old age and have a sense of life purpose.
1. People in blue zones don't over eat. THIS IS KEY. They eat REAL food. In CR they eat rice and beans. meat. eggs, full fat dairy, some fruit and coffee.
2. They walk a lot and do jobs which require constant manual labor.
3. They are very religious. They live in rural or semi rural areas. They sleep well. They live stress free lives.
First, awesome about the Blue Zones. I am very into the blue zones and have done studies on this for several years. The 5, Okinawa, Loma Linda, Greece, Sardinia and where you are from, Costa Rica all have very similar principles.
Food is whole, fresh, plentiful in vegetables, grains, nuts, legumes and yes some - not all- incorporate either eggs, fish, meat or cheese. From what I understand Nicoya have a mesa tortilla served with beans, a fried egg. The tortilla is also home made and the sources are from local, home and non GMO.
Sardinia traditional blue zone consume Goat cheese and milk, bread and legumes. The goats however were eating a plant that provided them with nutrients therefore increasing the omega 3 and 6 in the milk. The bread, biscuits were fresh and also home made.
Okinawa are my favorite, with Goya, lots of vegetables, fermented tofu, daikon radish and green tea and many sweet potatoes. Rice and very little fat. Pork is on special occasions and fish is consumed in smaller amounts then today.
Loma Linda are vegetarian and vegan with lots of nuts, grains, vegetables and legumes, similar to the Daniel Plan
Icaria, Greece is a heavily monounsaturated diet, meat and legumes.
They all are active, vital and work. The move a lot.
They are religious/ spiritual and faith filled
They are close in family and friends, Social living is a commonality.
There are very vast differences in the modern day US that are much unlike the Blue Zones. The food the Blue Zones ate was much more pure, unprocessed and the did not over eat- exactly what you stated. I find it fascinating the diets all have some incorporation of foods we in the US have been brain washed to banish in some schools of thought depending on who the "next big guru" is.
-Corn
_Legumes
-Soy
-Fruits and sweet potatoes
- Grains
- Meat, potatoes, Dairy and Eggs are controversial and very debatable
. My reason stems beyond nutrition and that is the different between Vegan and Plant based. I love animals, and other things that are not part of this debate.
I would argue that we ma have similar thoughts and agreements but to put everyone in the same category or lifestyle is not only unnecessary but can be culturally contradictory. Point being, to say diabetics NEED animal is way too bias. I have been in the health field several decades. There IS no one size.
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singingflutelady wrote: »But you said:
"carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young"
Funny how people who on average live longer than the rest of the world eat carbs which you declare will make you get progressively sicker and die young. Apparently they don't
Wrong. I am vegan and my diet was less than 30 on average for a long time until recently on some days I feel that my body wants more carbs. I have had periods where my macros were both high fat and high proteins
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savannahs21 wrote: »Dr. McDougall is probably the leading expert when it comes to low fat veganism. He has decades of research on low fat.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/
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Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.4 -
savannahs21 wrote: »Dr. McDougall is probably the leading expert when it comes to low fat veganism. He has decades of research on low fat.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/
Dr. McDougall was our family's physician in Hawaii decades ago before the headed to No. Calif. I still have a 1979 cookbook he gave me, he was very into sharing his information with his patients (for those who wanted it). Barley Soup, chili, Vegie Salad Dressing.... that sort of thing. I think they were actually his wife's Mary's recipes.
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It's simple.
carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young.
Any questions?
The question i have is where do you get this crap? This is a horrible understanding of science.
Suggesting carbs cause obesity, T2 diabetes, or IR shows your lack of knowledge. All of those diseases are multifaceted. All have lifestyle and genetic implications. But none of those are caused by carbs.
The world have a wide variety of diets where you can thrive. Very few world populations actually thrive on low carb or ketogenic diets. But i certainly don't think there is any data to suggest you cant thrive on low carb or ketogenic diets. People saying that are just as wrong. Humans are adaptable.
And if people really want to argue semantics, in order to thrive on vegan diets, requires fortification or supplementation.
A diet made up of lean proteins, low fat dairy, fruits, and vegetables is one of the healthiest, at least according to the most recent meta analysis.
But what is most important is maintaining a good weight, exercising, limit drinking, not smoking and having a varied diet.14 -
Much of this discussion is way out of perspective. Anyone who tells me bacon is healthier than a banana... really?
First, If someone is a diabetic they need to figure out the foods that induce spikes. It could be that banana, it could be bacon. Often times the weight loss from a reduction of calories is the contributing factor. Not specifically just diet.
I highly doubt having a few slices of mango, berries or banana on occasion will cause diabetes. I also do not think having a processed sweet or even fried meat once in a blue moon will pose a threat. Lets be real here. Moderation, less intake, proper balance and activity is health promoting. Keto is not meant for long term. Low carb is fine, low fat ifs fine if it is making you healthier.
Eat less, move more, be happy and base your diet on whole foods. It is not rocket science.
First, why would you compare a banana to bacon? If anyone was going to make a pedantic argument of animal based verse plant based foods, they would argue a steak or fish vs a banana. Why? Both are whole food sources. Second, bacon isn't causing insulin to spike. Bacon is almost all fat. Fat doesn't really cause an insulin spike. A banana would. Its pretty high in carbs.So if you are going to try to make an argument, use something realistic.
And show me the data on keto not being good long term. I'd love to see it.
Overall, i agree with what you are saying, but you're semantics are off.
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singingflutelady wrote: »But you said:
"carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young"
Funny how people who on average live longer than the rest of the world eat carbs which you declare will make you get progressively sicker and die young. Apparently they don't
Wrong. I am vegan and my diet was less than 30 on average for a long time until recently on some days I feel that my body wants more carbs. I have had periods where my macros were both high fat and high proteins
I was quoting that dude. I don't have any issues with vegans at all1 -
It's simple.
carbs -> insulin -> obesity -> fatty liver -> insulin resistsnce -> T2D -> horrible complications -> early death
The Mediterrean diet has 50% carbs. Vegan diets 60% carbs. Follow these diets and you will get progressively sicker and die young.
Any questions?
First of all, vegans -- like non-vegans -- can vary the amount of carbohydrates in their diet. Second, what evidence do you have for the claim that we -- as a population -- get progressively sicker than non-vegans and die younger than them?
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Blue zone people are NOT vegans. They eat an ANIMAL BASED DIET. They laugh at vegans and think they are very silly. I totally agree.
The people in Loma Linda, CA don't laugh at vegans. Many of them are vegan or eat plant-based diets themselves. You should really stop because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.12 -
Well, looks like this thread kind of blew up. I have tried eating various things and checking sugars 2 hours later, then presenting findings to the endocrinologist. I'm super carb sensitive even if those carbs are whole grains, high fiber veg, etc. So I eat a lot of nonstarchy vegetables, fish, lean meat and poultry, lowfat dairy, some nuts, a small amount of berries or a single clementine (or for vitamin C I put lemon juice in things like home made salad dressing.)
Everyone is different. I do take issue with my GP thinking there is a one size fits all diet that will fix everybody. Endocrinologist says "veganism works for some diabetics... but not you." Reason is the lazy time delay pancreas, no sense in repeating all that again. In no way am I going to argue over what anyone who isn't me should be eating.10
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