This isn't a dating app...
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I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare changing a myfitnesspal profile pic to avoid unwanted attention and blaming our appearance in real life for actual sexual harassment or violence toward women. & Just because I'd suggest not flashing a bunch of hundred dollar bills in a bad neighborhood doesn't mean I'm blaming you for the crime rate there...MargaretYakoda wrote: »that advice is perilously close to "what were you wearing?" It should not be necessary to change one's profile photo from a normal photo of a normal woman wearing things that it's legal and decent to wear in public, in order to avoid rude, unwelcome come-ons. Looking nice in one's profile photo is not a solicitation of inappropriate messages. The focus needs to be on the people who are behaving badly."
I thought about that when I said it, which is why I said* I know you shouldn't have to* I'm all for truth, though...it's good to be honest with yourself and think about why you do what you do.
As long as the advice is given to avoid certain clothes, poses, hair colors, hemlines, or etc - even with the qualification “I know you shouldn’t have to” - then it leaves room to blame the victim.
I haven’t mentioned it on this forum yet, but the one thing that was a key factor in my stopping my previous effort at weight loss was my chemistry professor who happened also to be my work study boss.
Long story. Won’t detail all of it here. Suffice it to say it was bad.
But I was returning to school. Trying to finish my degree. I had been getting fit and losing weight for some time. I was looking great. Really. I was 46, and about 160. Not that far from my goal.
The things he did, well…. When I found out he was doing the same to others (and, it turned out, worse) I reported him. And then I got the full force of rumors and the school and their lawyers. It was an absolute nightmare, that went on for a long time.
He even used the fact that I am well endowed and had the nerve to wear a sweater I purchased at Costco to “prove” to others what a “party girl” I was.
When all I was doing was attending class, cleaning lab equipment, setting up experiments for students, and occasionally grading papers (which I later found out I should never have been doing) That sweater showed exactly one inch of cleavage.
An inch…. And was brown and otherwise quite boring.
For the record, I am not, and never have been, a party girl. But there is nothing wrong with that if it’s truly consensual.
My point here is it doesn’t matter what you wear, the creepers will say it was a signal you wanted to (insert adult activity here)
So please. Keep the emphasis on the creeper’s behavior. Because someone could be wearing a head to toe covering and creepers will always say “They led me on! They wanted it!”
Don’t let them have even that much to hang on to.
It’s always always always the creeper’s behavior that is the problem. Always.
Completely out of the blue, unsolicited "hubba hubba, hey baby" PMs on MFP from complete strangers *is* actual sexual harassment.
No, it's not a severe type, probably not usually dangerous, but it does cause some women to back off participating here, when that woman has done *nothing inappropriate*. It's the shallow end of a deeper pattern of problems in the world at large, sadly.
Appearing in public, even in a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty, is in no way comparable to "flashing a bunch of hundred dollar bills in a bad neighborhood", speaking of hyperbole . . . let alone a photo of a cartoon cat or something, with only a female name, maybe "female" showing on the profile.
The misbehaver, the misbehavior: That's the problem, should be the focus.3 -
I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
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Welcome to the public forum. Where you'l get a mixture of creeps and good people. You just have to filter out the bad ones.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This attitude on the moderator board is the exact reason it’s a problem on the forums.2 -
I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
Great post1 -
Welcome to the public forum. Where you'l get a mixture of creeps and good people. You just have to filter out the bad ones.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This attitude on the moderator board is the exact reason it’s a problem on the forums.
Mods and staff actually really dislike these kinds of behaviors as well. The issue is maintaining a balance when trying block these issues while maintaining usability for normal users. There have been measures taken in the past to alleviate issues - if you didn't notice you have to do the little "I am not a robot" picture game when sending messages now, that's in response to the Russian porn bots. We have also had a period where you were unable to send a message to anyone who was not a friend, and both parties had to try to message each other for it to go through. This helps with the creeps, but also is cumbersome to regular users.
But we dont track or moderate private messages because they are your private messages, and in general the point is for them to remain private.
Edited to add: and as the main forums go, we don't see everything that is said here. Moderation is largely based on user reporting, so if you see something say something and we can try to help out.6 -
It should not make a difference what a woman wears or looks like on her profile pic or in real life.. that’s like blaming the woman for the mans actions.
Online and in real life you are going to get this kind of thing. There’s not much anyone can do about it except you.
You can try ignoring and blocking people and if they get out of hand threatening stalking aggressive harassment you can always report them to staff and the police.2 -
Welcome to the public forum. Where you'l get a mixture of creeps and good people. You just have to filter out the bad ones.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This attitude on the moderator board is the exact reason it’s a problem on the forums.
Niner is not a mod, and that's not the attitude I've seen the mods or staff here take, personally.
We, the users, need to report problems, if those occur. That means two general things:
* Flagging posts in the Community (in these cases, it would probably be the "report" option within flagging, with a note about why we see it as a problem. (IME, doing it that way gets quicker attention than the other flags, at least some of which have automatic consequences but they have to reach a certain count for the automatic action to kick in.)
* Reporting inappropriate PMs, via the MFP Help structure or by PMing MFP staff who're responsible for the Community. Those IDs can be found here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10028709/meet-our-community-team#latest
Three staff (who have other related responsibilities, too) and five English language volunteer moderators (regular people, unpaid) are not going to read every one of the many posts that show up here every day. *Of course* they don't read PMs, absent any complaint. Users would howl if they did.
I've reported problems via different routes, experienced reasonably speedy response. We need to report.6 -
I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
Yikes.
It feels like this is part of a Mad Men episode.
Taking this point by point:
1) “Sexy selfie” “Dress conservatively”
“Sexy” and “conservatively” are opinions. And are always used to blame the victim. Online as you are doing now, or IRL.
“What we’re you wearing” is used to discredit the person who reports an assault. It deflect blame from the abuser.
Stop saying people need to “dress conservatively” It’s not 1965.
2) It absolutely is used to put blame on the victim. There is no other point to such statements.
It doesn’t matter if someone wears a miniskirt, or makes a duck face for a selfie that shows some cleavage.
NONE of that actually matters.
3) WTH?
Y’know what changes a woman’s behavior and appearance?
Being asked - repeatedly - what she was wearing. And being told she should not have been walking alone. Should not have taken that late night class. Should not have gone to that party. Should not have (insert anything else here. Because it doesn’t matter what it is, someone always will blame the victim)
This exhibit may be useful to illustrate my point:
“ A powerful art exhibit currently on display at the University of Kansas aims to debunk this myth. The exhibit titled “What Were You Wearing?” features 18 stories of sexual violence and representations of what each victim was wearing at the time of their assault. The outfits include a bikini, a young boy’s yellow collared shirt, a sexy red dress and a T-shirt and jeans.”
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59baddd2e4b02da0e1405d2a/amp6 -
I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
Among the things that can lead women to that subconscious point: Rhetoric and experience in the culture that create the impression that just being female and of even average-ly attractive appearance, while living a normal life, is "asking for" inappropriate attention from creeps, and that the woman herself should take steps to be less attractive to prevent that.
And then a PP on this thread from a man points out that he's known a man who had an eye to pick out women in that kind of psychologically vulnerable space, and use it take advantage of them.
The problem is the creeps, male or female creeps, either one.
I fear that women can feel that avoiding looking sexy/attractive/tempting (however one defines that) is some kind of armor. It's not. As an overweight woman in my 50s, walking in a well-lighted public space in the early evening with people 8n shouting distance but not nearby, in Winter so I was bundled up in thick Winter clothing head to toe, I was accosted by several young men in their 20s getting out of a car, who told me quite graphically what they would like to do to me, or have me do to them. (I wasn't afraid, because of the setting, just disgusted and dismayed.)
There is no armor in any appearance or circumstances, because the problem is the creeps.
If anyone is feeling like "I don't dress provocatively" or something like that, so feeling that no harassment can occur because they're respectable . . . that's a comforting illusion, I guess. I admit that there may be a little odds-shifting at the margin, if a woman retreats enough - don't go out at night, don't wear *that*, etc. It's still the creeps that are the problem, and that retreat is an effect of a culture that will sometimes argue otherwise.4 -
I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
Among the things that can lead women to that subconscious point: Rhetoric and experience in the culture that create the impression that just being female and of even average-ly attractive appearance, while living a normal life, is "asking for" inappropriate attention from creeps, and that the woman herself should take steps to be less attractive to prevent that.
And then a PP on this thread from a man points out that he's known a man who had an eye to pick out women in that kind of psychologically vulnerable space, and use it take advantage of them.
The problem is the creeps, male or female creeps, either one.
I fear that women can feel that avoiding looking sexy/attractive/tempting (however one defines that) is some kind of armor. It's not. As an overweight woman in my 50s, walking in a well-lighted public space in the early evening with people 8n shouting distance but not nearby, in Winter so I was bundled up in thick Winter clothing head to toe, I was accosted by several young men in their 20s getting out of a car, who told me quite graphically what they would like to do to me, or have me do to them. (I wasn't afraid, because of the setting, just disgusted and dismayed.)
There is no armor in any appearance or circumstances, because the problem is the creeps.
If anyone is feeling like "I don't dress provocatively" or something like that, so feeling that no harassment can occur because they're respectable . . . that's a comforting illusion, I guess. I admit that there may be a little odds-shifting at the margin, if a woman retreats enough - don't go out at night, don't wear *that*, etc. It's still the creeps that are the problem, and that retreat is an effect of a culture that will sometimes argue otherwise.
Just World theory.
The idea that bad things only happen to people who are themselves bad in some way. People who “deserve it”
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »I agree. Of course the blame for a man's behavior should be on the man! I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with that...*A sexy selfie with yourself half dressed and kissing the camera most likely will get more odd fiend requests than funny vintage photos or "a photo, in normal street wear, looking pretty" or landscape or animal photos. Not that you will be completely safe from it*
My beautiful mom and grandmother taught me to be aware of my surroundings, always go out in groups(especially at night), never accept an open drink from a man nor a ride home, etc. and yes to dress conservatively in some situations.
I never felt like by telling me those things they were in any way going to irreversibly change my behavior or appearance or were implying that it was my fault for the behavior of creepy men. I know they truly wanted to protect me, and were less concerned with protecting their ideals.
You know what does change women's behavior and appearance? When they gain 100 pounds in real life, subconsciously thinking it's going to prevent them from being taken advantage of.
Have some self respect and protect yourself out there!
Among the things that can lead women to that subconscious point: Rhetoric and experience in the culture that create the impression that just being female and of even average-ly attractive appearance, while living a normal life, is "asking for" inappropriate attention from creeps, and that the woman herself should take steps to be less attractive to prevent that.
And then a PP on this thread from a man points out that he's known a man who had an eye to pick out women in that kind of psychologically vulnerable space, and use it take advantage of them.
The problem is the creeps, male or female creeps, either one.
I fear that women can feel that avoiding looking sexy/attractive/tempting (however one defines that) is some kind of armor. It's not. As an overweight woman in my 50s, walking in a well-lighted public space in the early evening with people 8n shouting distance but not nearby, in Winter so I was bundled up in thick Winter clothing head to toe, I was accosted by several young men in their 20s getting out of a car, who told me quite graphically what they would like to do to me, or have me do to them. (I wasn't afraid, because of the setting, just disgusted and dismayed.)
There is no armor in any appearance or circumstances, because the problem is the creeps.
If anyone is feeling like "I don't dress provocatively" or something like that, so feeling that no harassment can occur because they're respectable . . . that's a comforting illusion, I guess. I admit that there may be a little odds-shifting at the margin, if a woman retreats enough - don't go out at night, don't wear *that*, etc. It's still the creeps that are the problem, and that retreat is an effect of a culture that will sometimes argue otherwise.
Just World theory.
The idea that bad things only happen to people who are themselves bad in some way. People who “deserve it”
Yes, and . . . other nuances.
When I was doing cancer treatment, some people would interrogate me about why I thought this cancer happened, then visibly relax when they'd asked enough questions to find something that was reassuringly different about me compared to them (even if not "bad"). In the most mind-bending cases, it was simply comforting (?) me with "God doesn't give us anything we can't handle" with follow up comments about how they themselves wouldn't be able to handle cancer/treatment. I felt like some people were distancing themselves from me by setting me up as "inspiring" or "brave" (as if I had a lot of other viable choices other than to deal with it).
I think this is a form of magical thinking, sort of finding charms or talismans that are psychologically self-protective. That's a subjective assessment, though, and a purely amateur one.
In some ways, I think "what was she wearing" or "don't go out alone at night" or that sort of thing can be similar.
P.S. Not saying everyone who asked questions about cancer or offered faith-based comfort felt that self-protective way, in my view . . . but it was a distinct current in some conversations, IMO. I felt sad for those people, actually: It seems like a fearful place to operate from, to me.5 -
Yes! I no longer accept friend requests from men for this reason. I have gotten some CREEPY messages!0
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“The world is full of people who will help you manufacture tornados in order to blow out a match.”
― Shaun Hick
Here is another one...
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@NVintage uh...what? No, this is a genuine question, I'm asking - what does this tee shirt have to do with anything in this thread?6
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Just ideas for profile pics....
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report and block online jerks. be done with em.
related but not .... the dog in my profile pic is Holly. She is 150 pound Great Pyrenees, and is one of our 2 livestock guardian dogs. Super friendly, loves everyone. GREAT at her job (as is her brother). And because she is equally as good with people and wouldn't hesitate to rip the jugular out of anyone attacking ME... is a fantastic travel companion for my many road trips (well, pre-covid lol).
That's what my mind keeps coming back to as I keep reading the comments on this thread. That everyone needs a 'Holly' (please dont run out and buy one, they really are NOT the breed for everyone LOL)... If only I could take her EVERYWHERE. Not really a dog you can shove in a purse though LOL1 -
callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »report and block online jerks. be done with em.
related but not .... the dog in my profile pic is Holly. She is 150 pound Great Pyrenees, and is one of our 2 livestock guardian dogs. Super friendly, loves everyone. GREAT at her job (as is her brother). And because she is equally as good with people and wouldn't hesitate to rip the jugular out of anyone attacking ME... is a fantastic travel companion for my many road trips (well, pre-covid lol).
That's what my mind keeps coming back to as I keep reading the comments on this thread. That everyone needs a 'Holly' (please dont run out and buy one, they really are NOT the breed for everyone LOL)... If only I could take her EVERYWHERE. Not really a dog you can shove in a purse though LOL
I had a miniature dachshund who was a pussycat.
Someone came over to the house, knowing I was home alone, screamed “I wish you were dead!” then put his hand on the gate to vault it to attack me.
In front of my very eyes, that dachshund swole to the size of a Doberman and went for him. He grew taller than the three foot fence and went all junkyard dog, snarling and foaming. I’ve never seen anything like it before or since.
It was enough to scare some sense into my unwelcome visitor, who took off. Dog would not tolerate strangers near me after that, all twelve pounds of him.
Beware My Wiener, indeed.
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springlering62 wrote: »callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »report and block online jerks. be done with em.
related but not .... the dog in my profile pic is Holly. She is 150 pound Great Pyrenees, and is one of our 2 livestock guardian dogs. Super friendly, loves everyone. GREAT at her job (as is her brother). And because she is equally as good with people and wouldn't hesitate to rip the jugular out of anyone attacking ME... is a fantastic travel companion for my many road trips (well, pre-covid lol).
That's what my mind keeps coming back to as I keep reading the comments on this thread. That everyone needs a 'Holly' (please dont run out and buy one, they really are NOT the breed for everyone LOL)... If only I could take her EVERYWHERE. Not really a dog you can shove in a purse though LOL
I had a miniature dachshund who was a pussycat.
Someone came over to the house, knowing I was home alone, screamed “I wish you were dead!” then put his hand on the gate to vault it to attack me.
In front of my very eyes, that dachshund swole to the size of a Doberman and went for him. He grew taller than the three foot fence and went all junkyard dog, snarling and foaming. I’ve never seen anything like it before or since.
It was enough to scare some sense into my unwelcome visitor, who took off. Dog would not tolerate strangers near me after that, all twelve pounds of him.
Beware My Wiener, indeed.
im far more cautious around unknown little dogs than unknown big dogs LOL4 -
callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »springlering62 wrote: »callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »report and block online jerks. be done with em.
related but not .... the dog in my profile pic is Holly. She is 150 pound Great Pyrenees, and is one of our 2 livestock guardian dogs. Super friendly, loves everyone. GREAT at her job (as is her brother). And because she is equally as good with people and wouldn't hesitate to rip the jugular out of anyone attacking ME... is a fantastic travel companion for my many road trips (well, pre-covid lol).
That's what my mind keeps coming back to as I keep reading the comments on this thread. That everyone needs a 'Holly' (please dont run out and buy one, they really are NOT the breed for everyone LOL)... If only I could take her EVERYWHERE. Not really a dog you can shove in a purse though LOL
I had a miniature dachshund who was a pussycat.
Someone came over to the house, knowing I was home alone, screamed “I wish you were dead!” then put his hand on the gate to vault it to attack me.
In front of my very eyes, that dachshund swole to the size of a Doberman and went for him. He grew taller than the three foot fence and went all junkyard dog, snarling and foaming. I’ve never seen anything like it before or since.
It was enough to scare some sense into my unwelcome visitor, who took off. Dog would not tolerate strangers near me after that, all twelve pounds of him.
Beware My Wiener, indeed.
im far more cautious around unknown little dogs than unknown big dogs LOL
OK but the advice to get a dog does nothing about online creepers.
And for IRL creepers?
Well…. I have almost always had dogs.
It doesn’t make much difference.
The problem is the creepers.4 -
MargaretYakoda wrote: »callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »springlering62 wrote: »callsitlikeiseeit wrote: »report and block online jerks. be done with em.
related but not .... the dog in my profile pic is Holly. She is 150 pound Great Pyrenees, and is one of our 2 livestock guardian dogs. Super friendly, loves everyone. GREAT at her job (as is her brother). And because she is equally as good with people and wouldn't hesitate to rip the jugular out of anyone attacking ME... is a fantastic travel companion for my many road trips (well, pre-covid lol).
That's what my mind keeps coming back to as I keep reading the comments on this thread. That everyone needs a 'Holly' (please dont run out and buy one, they really are NOT the breed for everyone LOL)... If only I could take her EVERYWHERE. Not really a dog you can shove in a purse though LOL
I had a miniature dachshund who was a pussycat.
Someone came over to the house, knowing I was home alone, screamed “I wish you were dead!” then put his hand on the gate to vault it to attack me.
In front of my very eyes, that dachshund swole to the size of a Doberman and went for him. He grew taller than the three foot fence and went all junkyard dog, snarling and foaming. I’ve never seen anything like it before or since.
It was enough to scare some sense into my unwelcome visitor, who took off. Dog would not tolerate strangers near me after that, all twelve pounds of him.
Beware My Wiener, indeed.
im far more cautious around unknown little dogs than unknown big dogs LOL
OK but the advice to get a dog does nothing about online creepers.
And for IRL creepers?
Well…. I have almost always had dogs.
It doesn’t make much difference.
The problem is the creepers.
not gonna disagree with that. but until the world has ridded itself of creepers, I like having a dog around. at least for the in person variety 1
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