Coronavirus prep

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  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,743 Member
    autobahn66 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

    Conclusions:
    Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.


    This was published on the 5th of October 2021

    https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2021/cp/d1cp02967c

    Microscopic interactions between ivermectin and key human and viral proteins involved in SARS-CoV-2 infection†

    Just for clarity: that meta-analysis includes the now-infamous Elgazzar study which was shown to include falsified data, and the primary author has had a recent article regarding the MATH+ protocol for COVID retracted as outcome data was falsified. see here. And has generally worked unscientifically during the pandemic to propose treatments for covid without adequate clinical evidence, including vitamin C and hydroxychloroquine, and now ivermectin. The shame is that the unscientific use of methylprednisolone (which he and other members of his group promulgated) was effective and has been borne out in later scientific trials.

    Further, it includes a bunch of observational studies which are weak evidence of efficacy. More contemporary and well controlled trials have not shown the same effect (see here and here.)

    Further: the article quotes a the rates of covid and mortality in large cities with and without distribution of ivermectin without adequately controlling for other factors which affect the nature of outbreaks in that area, or the reporting of covid incidence or mortality in the area. This is not evidence of clinical efficacy.

    In general, the published trials into ivermectin efficacy (certainly those in the meta-analysis here, and the ones by Hill and Bryant (who directly thanks Kory in the acknowledgements, and rated the Elgazzar as reliable in their analysis)) are not of good quality and have relatively small numbers and heterogenous inclusion criteria and outcome assessments compared to those that are ongoing, or other trials which have shown good evidence of efficacy of other treatments or prophylaxis.

    As for the modelling that suggests that ivermectin can bind various proteins of SARS-CoV2/human proteins involved in infection: this is weak evidence of an interaction on a structural level and no evidence of clinical efficacy at all. It is very straightforward to model an interaction like this, but evidence of a true physical interaction (a crystal structure by X-ray, or cryo-EM, evidence of interaction by SPR or even calorimetry) would be at least practical evidence, rather than purely modelled. But even then it would be essentially no evidence of either physiological effect in humans (which would require distribution of the drug into an appropriate body compartment to have an effect in sufficient quantities to actually affect the pathophysiology of the virus and under conditions that mimic that compartment).

    There is a huge issue at the moment with preprints and small journals publishing material that would never have been accepted prior to the pandemic: trying to publish a purely computational model of a small molecule binding a protein would have very little traction without real-world data to back it up, and certainly would get mostly ignored in the structural biology community (in the absence of a clear reason why that interaction was relevant).

    N.B. I am not ruling out that ivermectin has a significant effect in clinical use in the treatment of covid. This remains to be seen and will come out in due course with several large trials ongoing - although the together trial have stopped the ivermectin arm due to inefficacy, so it's not looking good. But there is nothing at the moment to support the widespread use that we have seen in some parts of the world.

    Thanks for the detailed assessment. I have no doubt it won't be used in NA anytime soon even though many Dr.s are prescribing it. Apparently the CDC is gathering at speed more data on ivermectin, which is encouraging. Ivermectin is known to block 3CL main protease, which as you know is how the virus replicated itself. Pfizer's new molecule does the same but it's patented which will be a big money maker for the next 20 yrs....as opposed to ivermectin where the patent has expired and can be reproduced by anybody for pennies and it's not in the best interests to study a drug for a specific purpose because of the literal cost to performed such a study to then not make any money. Remdesivir for example made by Gilead is approved and has a low efficacy rating and costs I believe around 700.00 usd for a 5 day supply. Many countries have and are using it now. It cost pennies, has virtually no side effects and can be administered at home, it's just mind boggling it hasn't been done from the very outset of the pandemic, that's pretty much just basic medical science prevention along with vit d. it's not rocket surgery. imo
  • ythannah
    ythannah Posts: 4,393 Member
    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/46420447#Comment_46420447

    This mirrors what I've heard from LTC facilities here, that infection was impossible to control in dementia patients without resorting to inhumane measures like imprisoning them in their rooms or restraining them. Many tend to be very restless and "wander" anyway, and preventing contact with other residents was a monumental challenge.

  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,995 Member
    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/46420423#Comment_46420423

    Did I ask what “in silico” means?

    No. No, I did not.

  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,995 Member

    Just wanna throw this spanner into the works….

    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/11/10/1054224204/how-sars-cov-2-in-american-deer-could-alter-the-course-of-the-global-pandemic?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&fbclid=IwAR1Ezw8nFRGUtXg9k4fKCybIa9TwHX0xD8w-Awh63CdoZc6_14C_zGYGo5s


  • autumnblade75
    autumnblade75 Posts: 1,661 Member
    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/46424030#Comment_46424030

    So, are the deer spending lots of time indoors in the vicinity of sick people, or closer than 6 feet outdoors (obviously unmasked, duh) for greater than 15 minutes? I understand how caged minks get infected, but not so much the wild animals.

    If I were inclined to believe conspiracy theories, I'd believe the anti-hunting people were spreading propaganda.

    https://www.cjonline.com/story/sports/outdoors/hunting/2021/09/08/can-kansas-hunters-safely-eat-meat-white-tailed-deer-infected-covid-vacinnes-pandemic-ivermectin/5753745001/

    It appears that is unlikely, if the meat is considered safe. But this article reminded me that people put deer in "zoos." I know the little free public zoo a few miles from me has deer contained by a chain-link fence, where, yes, they probably do get close enough to humans to catch the disease, and there's no reason wild deer wouldn't approach near enough to catch the disease from the caged animals. So, that explains a reasonable source of transmission to wild deer that would satisfy me.

    I'm glad the meat isn't unsafe, in case we need to resort to hunting to feed ourselves in the ongoing apocalypse.

  • MargaretYakoda
    MargaretYakoda Posts: 2,995 Member
    ythannah wrote: »
    All you need is one deer to catch it from a human and then spread it to the other deer, not each and every deer to catch it from a human.

    Exactly.
    And then it spreads back to the human population from one infected dear.

    Either hunting. Or a zoo. Or like we have here, wild deer so utterly unfazed by humans that they are literally everywhere in town.

    hjplx6ad8cwu.jpeg
  • autumnblade75
    autumnblade75 Posts: 1,661 Member
    I checked, and the comment I made after my link is showing up for me. Is it not visible to the rest of you?
  • ythannah
    ythannah Posts: 4,393 Member
    MargaretYakoda wrote: »
    ythannah wrote: »
    All you need is one deer to catch it from a human and then spread it to the other deer, not each and every deer to catch it from a human.

    Exactly.
    And then it spreads back to the human population from one infected dear.

    Either hunting. Or a zoo. Or like we have here, wild deer so utterly unfazed by humans that they are literally everywhere in town.

    hjplx6ad8cwu.jpeg

    I can't speak to research practices in the US but I do know that here the wildlife conservation people are continually catching and tagging animals to study them, which involves direct contact.

    There have been zoo animals that have tested positive for the virus, and the general population is generally kept well away from any physical contact with them.
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,839 Member
    Re: animal populations. I have been thinking for some time that populations of feral cats can probably act as a reservoir for covid, since we know cats can get it. There’s apparently “no evidence of transmission to humans” but that mainly means no one has studied it yet. The last thing we need is a panic with people killing all the cats. But it might be good to know if adopting a stray could potentially give you Covid, so they can be tested first.

    I also wonder about raccoons. They are very rarely studied for various reasons - they can get rabies and native wildlife laws make it illegal to keep them in captivity in many places - but they live near to humans, and if ever a creature existed which was likely to catch something from a human, they are it. I mean, they eat our trash. So the question is, can they even catch Covid? Do they act as a reservoir for it?
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,887 Member
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html#Pets-and-Animals
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,839 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html#Pets-and-Animals
    Yes, congrats. An entire page of the CDC saying they haven’t studied this yet. “We haven’t seen any evidence” is not the same as evidence one way or the other.
  • Fuzzipeg
    Fuzzipeg Posts: 2,305 Member
    Does that not mean, till someone produces an animal actually with covid, there will be no "evidence" of them having having covid. A case of a pet having covid should be reported to the statutory authorities by the vet.

    So the very next time your pet has been exposed like yourself to a person with full on active covid, watch its behaviours and demeanas for 14 days keeping it in isolation, to see if it develops symptoms, as you would had you been contacted by "track and trace" for yourself, then do a lateral flow test on it. (My cat would hate it but if needs must.) If the pet is positive for covid, contact your vet and ask for help, then ask them to inform your authorities.

    I've no idea how you could test an avian pet thought
  • ythannah
    ythannah Posts: 4,393 Member
    https://nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00531-z
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,839 Member
    edited November 2021
    Fuzzipeg wrote: »
    Does that not mean, till someone produces an animal actually with covid, there will be no "evidence" of them having having covid. A case of a pet having covid should be reported to the statutory authorities by the vet.

    So the very next time your pet has been exposed like yourself to a person with full on active covid, watch its behaviours and demeanas for 14 days keeping it in isolation, to see if it develops symptoms, as you would had you been contacted by "track and trace" for yourself, then do a lateral flow test on it. (My cat would hate it but if needs must.) If the pet is positive for covid, contact your vet and ask for help, then ask them to inform your authorities.

    I've no idea how you could test an avian pet thought

    There absolutely is evidence that domestic cats and dogs get covid, as well as many types of zoo animals. What the CDC is saying is there’s no evidence of humans catching it from pets. Which, considering that about 65% of cases here have an unknown source, isn’t saying much. Our contact tracing is extremely lacking and we don’t know jack about where cases come from in this country.

    BTW cats apparently mostly cough and wheeze for a couple of weeks, in case you do ever wonder about yours.
  • SuzySunshine99
    SuzySunshine99 Posts: 2,990 Member
    There is a veterinary version of the COVID vaccine available that zoos are using to vaccinate some of their animals...mostly cats and primates, since they seem to be vulnerable to COVID.

    I don't know if they are available for pets.
  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    MargaretYakoda wrote: »
    Just wanna throw this spanner into the works….

    They are thinning the herd every morning and every evening around here so they may clear out the ones that's diseased and eat them.

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