Did anyone watch Oprah Monday night? Shame, blame and the weightloss revolution.
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SafariGalNYC wrote: »In the news there was a lot of talk about being “healthy and fat” at the same time. If we say it’s a disease, there is no being obese and healthy at any size.
Your point here isn't clear, to wit: The day before the Olympics an athlete is given a diagnosis of metastatic brain cancer and a prognosis of six months to live. The next day they go and win the gold medal and set the world record. Are they healthy? Do they have a disease? What do you mean you can't have both. What's your point?
I think you are sharing some opinion of yours which is perfectly valid, but it came off as you pointing out something factual, and it just wasn't clear.0 -
chris_in_cal wrote: »SafariGalNYC wrote: »In the news there was a lot of talk about being “healthy and fat” at the same time. If we say it’s a disease, there is no being obese and healthy at any size.
Your point here isn't clear, to wit: The day before the Olympics an athlete is given a diagnosis of metastatic brain cancer and a prognosis of six months to live. The next day they go and win the gold medal and set the world record. Are they healthy? Do they have a disease? What do you mean you can't have both. What's your point?
I think you are sharing some opinion of yours which is perfectly valid, but it came off as you pointing out something factual, and it just wasn't clear.
Pretty sure this is a theoretical.
Because if a world class athlete is feeling off enough to be put through the tests needed to diagnose a metastatic brain cancer…. They would be very unlikely to be well enough to compete in The Olympics.
Getting back to what I think is your point, BMI is only a rough estimate of health.
There are plenty of people who are technically obese who are very healthy.
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SafariGalNYC wrote: »
I’d be interested in seeing the obesity as disease in the debate section of MFP.
I don’t think it matters how one becomes obese.. the fact is, once someone is obese it has many acute and chronic complications for the body.
In the news there was a lot of talk about being “healthy and fat” at the same time. If we say it’s a disease, there is no being obese and healthy at any size.
bold is mine.
Agree, think obesity as a disease is an important discussion and would like to see it as a topic in debate ~ to further mutual understanding of the issues.
As to "if we say it is a disease, then" statement. I get that. A common understanding in language would define disease as sick/unhealthy state/process - this is me stating my common language meaning of the word disease...
Which leads to... disease can not both be "fat and healthy" in the same space as diseased.
Can someone who has a disease still perform in a physical way, well yes, but if the disease progresses, the overall health and fitness would devolve....
So, i would add... people don't typically jump from thin to obese, it occurs over time. If it continues and is not arrested, it becomes quite debilitating and deadly. Just 5 lbs a year over 20 years does not typically end up fit and healthy...
My personal thinking about the "fat and healthy" movement perhaps mis-leads people away from understanding how "obesity" tends to progress with deadly consequences for all too many people.
Edit to add, obesity as a disease treated with meds was a major part of Oprah's special.
-- perhaps in defining obesity as a disease, it is an attempt to define the complex processes underlying the result of obesity..
-- the thinking/terminology over past decades has evolved ~ metabolic x, metabolic syndrome, there were others, insulin resistance, but includes other systems...
~ the Glp1 drugs seem to target glp (hormones?) coming from fat tissues to the brain ... where it impacts/triggers a roaring appetite.... AND the med seems to target and quiet that driving urge to overeat... THIS right there seems tremendously helpful in ways CICO has not worked for so many despite sincere/sustained efforts and strong desire.... effective beyond willpower.2 -
I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.3
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chris_in_cal wrote: »SafariGalNYC wrote: »In the news there was a lot of talk about being “healthy and fat” at the same time. If we say it’s a disease, there is no being obese and healthy at any size.
Your point here isn't clear, to wit: The day before the Olympics an athlete is given a diagnosis of metastatic brain cancer and a prognosis of six months to live. The next day they go and win the gold medal and set the world record. Are they healthy? Do they have a disease? What do you mean you can't have both. What's your point?
I think you are sharing some opinion of yours which is perfectly valid, but it came off as you pointing out something factual, and it just wasn't clear.
No, the Olympic athlete is not healthy in your example. They have a disease that in 6 months will kill them. It does not matter if you perform on a certain day at a high level. So no, you cannot have a disease and be healthy. You can have a disease and appear healthy.....but that is not the same as actually being healthy.
I will not debate this point of medications vs willpower or whatever one extreme side thinks of the other. I will definitively say, if obesity is in fact a disease, than if you are obese you are not healthy. You may be happy and ok with it.....but under this definition you cannot be healthy
But i am not a doctor or scientist worthy of determining if obesity is in fact a disease. So everything i posted here is rhetorical as if in fact it was.4 -
PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.1 -
In the special, a woman discussed how she thinks about food all the time. When is she going to eat next, what am I having for supper. Normal people can just go about their day and not worry about food. This is what makes it a disease. Our bodies are telling our brain we need more food. This medicine quiets those thoughts. It also isn't as easy as you make it to be to just eat right and exercise. An alcoholic doesn't have to sit in a bar every day and choose to drink soda instead of alcohol. It's very hard.3
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BCLadybug888 wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.
My understanding based on reports is that it is a known side effect and which is one reason why people gain the weight back when they get off the medication. But in theory what you say is true.1 -
PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »BCLadybug888 wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.
My understanding based on reports is that it is a known side effect and which is one reason why people gain the weight back when they get off the medication. But in theory what you say is true.
Would love to see those reports if you happen to have them handy.
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Watching that show made me understand that the drugs are a tool to lose weight. Not a tool that I need, but that some others do. I am limited in what I can do in my life if I don’t take a thyroid pill and an antidepressant every day. Those two little pills give me freedom to be active and engaged with life. The women on the show seem happy to be free from thinking about about food all day. I say, good for them! I don’t believe that obesity is a disease, simply because it was very rare prior to processed food production. It’s a good marketing strategy for the drug companies.2
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MargaretYakoda wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »BCLadybug888 wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.
My understanding based on reports is that it is a known side effect and which is one reason why people gain the weight back when they get off the medication. But in theory what you say is true.
Would love to see those reports if you happen to have them handy.
This sounds a tad condescending lol. You can Google. Let me be clear I was not referencing research. Solely news reports. And one thing in the reports that is mentioned that folks on this shot do have to be careful to include plenty of weight training and protein. But yes, it is "reported" that many lose lots of muscle due to rapid weight loss.3 -
PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »BCLadybug888 wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.
My understanding based on reports is that it is a known side effect and which is one reason why people gain the weight back when they get off the medication. But in theory what you say is true.
Would love to see those reports if you happen to have them handy.
This sounds a tad condescending lol. You can Google. Let me be clear I was not referencing research. Solely news reports. And one thing in the reports that is mentioned that folks on this shot do have to be careful to include plenty of weight training and protein. But yes, it is "reported" that many lose lots of muscle due to rapid weight loss.
I knew what you meant 🤗2 -
::shrug::PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »MargaretYakoda wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »BCLadybug888 wrote: »PlentyofProtein00 wrote: »I honestly have considered this medication for myself. The fear for me or hesitation is we do not know yet, the full ramifications of taking this as a way to lose weight...for myself I fear the amount of muscle loss and difficulty it would cause to build muscle taking in such few calories...you wouldn't be able to get in enough protein to build and maintain a healthy amount of muscle...so long term years down the road what kind of impact would that have on bones, heart health, skeletal health over all...ive seen severe hair loss, muscle loss, and other red flags from those around me using medication...those are signs your body is trying to compensate for lack of nutrients...thats worrisome to me.
I think that you still can eat a healthful diet, and don't have to go to an extreme deficit. By most accounts, the medications help with slowing digestion and helping with appetite and possibly cravings, but you still take them alongside watching what you eat and trying to be active. No different than now, just easier to control vs all willpower. If you want to eat low carb/more protein, no one's gonna stop you.
I have read before (nothing to do with medications) that you should eat adequate calories and protein for your goal weight, and then you can just slide into maintenance - sounds good! 😉
Of course if that is too drastic of a deficit, you could still scale down to that over time. No reason to not to get enough protein.
My understanding based on reports is that it is a known side effect and which is one reason why people gain the weight back when they get off the medication. But in theory what you say is true.
Would love to see those reports if you happen to have them handy.
This sounds a tad condescending lol. You can Google. Let me be clear I was not referencing research. Solely news reports. And one thing in the reports that is mentioned that folks on this shot do have to be careful to include plenty of weight training and protein. But yes, it is "reported" that many lose lots of muscle due to rapid weight loss.
A claim was made.
I simply asked for more information.
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“I wouldn’t rely on television for my introduction to anything,” Magee confided in me, blinking from behind glasses so thick they appeared to be double-glazed for warmth. “It seems to me a completely unimportant medium.” Bryan! I wept internally… It was like being told there was really only ever one Ronnie, or watching David Attenborough kick a pigeon. But—remembering what television is generally like—it was hard to disagree. Magee smiled grand-paternally back at me from where he sat, inside a small arms-reach fortress of books and papers, wielding a copy of Dumas the size of house-brick; the television screwed to the opposite wall was, I assumed, purely ornamental.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/philosophy/42872/the-last-interview-with-bryan-magee1 -
AdahPotatah2024 wrote: »It was like being told there was really only ever one Ronnie
Oh The Horror! 1
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