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Deep Ketosis
Replies
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Yeah, the Randle Cycle is interesting especially when competing for entry into the mitochondria, it's an obscure bio chemical process that isn't widely know.
As far as MCT's are concerned which I take on my workout days don't compete with other dietary fatty acids and are absorbed by the gut and then directly transported to the liver via the portal vein which the liver converts to ketones and is then used as immediate energy. Any other consumed dietary fats stay in the gut much longer for digestion and then absorption takes place and like I said MCT's are absorbed before those other fats, and doesn't effect the absorption of any LCT's. Personally I don't see much difference in the gym but every little bit helps regardless, I'll continue using them.0 -
Still feeling great and leaning out good, but man did I have a craving for Dark Chocolate last 🤣😈
Just had to say not tonight0 -
If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition1 -
If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.0 -
Deep Ketosis comes from Robert Sikes a natural bodybuilder who is also keto. Certificates, we all have those, I'm 48 and this is my 5 time doing keto to drop body fat and so far the best. Muscles are still full and strong. Just food for thought Vince Gironda did this, Sergio Nubreit I think his name was, ate this way. Anthony Chaffer has a great body and so does Shawn Baker. So completely possible and makes way better sense if you look at the mitochondria. There are newer and better studies coming out on fat adapted athletes.0
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Athletes perform better on zero carbs! Professor Tim Noakes. Great YouTube video great research
The body will make glucose if it needs it0 -
Disagree. There are many studies showing the difference in performance of elite athletes with or without carb loading before events. There aren't but a couple showing lower performance for keto only athletes.PiPDream01 wrote: »Athletes perform better on zero carbs! Professor Tim Noakes. Great YouTube video great research
The body will make glucose if it needs it
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://nihrecord.nih.gov/sites/recordNIH/files/pdf/2019/NIH-Record-2019-12-13.pdf
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Disagree. There are many studies showing the difference in performance of elite athletes with or without carb loading before events. There aren't but a couple showing lower performance for keto only athletes.PiPDream01 wrote: »Athletes perform better on zero carbs! Professor Tim Noakes. Great YouTube video great research
The body will make glucose if it needs it
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://nihrecord.nih.gov/sites/recordNIH/files/pdf/2019/NIH-Record-2019-12-13.pdf
Being competitive in bodybuilding and coaching a few competitors, you definitely see the difference in lower carb diets for prep and show, but for performance.........low carb forces them to suffer in workouts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Depends on the athletic performance that is asked.
If it's high intensity aerobic performance that's asked for, then no, a keto diet isn't optimal. Fat delivers more energy as a substrate on a per gram basis but there's a need for more oxygen to produce the same amount of energy and like I said, when the performance is of high intensity then the oxygen is the limiting factor.
On the other hand when high intensity isn't asked and it's rather steady state then a keto diet can be utilized quite effectively. Zack Bitter won the championship for the 100 mile ultra marathon and set a world record as well who trained and competed using a ketogenic diet. Both Kobe Bryant and LeBron James used the ketogenic diet for their basic diet philosophy just not all the time, carbs are tasty. The Maasai are known for running down prey for days and they basically are in a ketogenic state. There's nuance that generally doesn't get discussed very much, nothing is ever cut and dry, especially something that isn't understood very well like nutrition.
Oh, look I found a study that agrees with me, so I must be right, yeah that's not science that's confirmation bias and dogma. Science is when a scientist looks = with vigor and determination to seek out all the literature that totally disagrees with their hypothesis and it's the reason they publish their findings so it can be peer reviewed and scrutinized, even then, most of that is corrupted by many factors and the reason thousands of published studies get taken down and removed from different scientific journals.....it's a mine field, basically.
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Zack Bitter has openly stated that he consumes 30-40 grams of carbs per hour during endurance racing. Though he does use low carb at times during training, he also admits to it lowering his performance until he added back in more carbs. His primary focus has been the ability to burn fat better to aid his fueling while racing, and limiting the amount he needs to eat when racing.0
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robertw486 wrote: »Zack Bitter has openly stated that he consumes 30-40 grams of carbs per hour during endurance racing. Though he does use low carb at times during training, he also admits to it lowering his performance until he added back in more carbs. His primary focus has been the ability to burn fat better to aid his fueling while racing, and limiting the amount he needs to eat when racing.
That's true, especially when in a particular stint when he's upping his intensity. Keto is his foundation for his energy source but like most athletes you do what's necessary to win. Personally when I play hockey and I'm keto, I will have some carbs before hand and that's called a "targeted ketogenic diet" but I can run or bike for hours at 71 and the bonus is the almost lack of lactic acid burn in my leg muscles and in a steady state there is no wall, or virtually no wall it's more about exhaustion but sometimes carbs can be beneficial, especially when they're getting immediately burned and back into a ketogenic state pretty quickly.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.
What kind of science would convince you that keto hurts muscle gain?2 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.
What kind of science would convince you that keto hurts muscle gain?
Any, really how would it hurt muscle gain? Muscle gain is because of muscle stimulation from mechanical tension recruiting muscle fibers. There are studies that show, science studies that show the Pump actually impedes muscle hypertrophy. We have been around 2000,000 to 300,000 years and for all that we ate are animals. Also myself, I have done it and I am doing it. Looks at any study in the last 30 years and look who funded it and it supports there business products, You can studies that support drinking alcohol which is a drug, a poison. Show me a independent study like Tim Noakes has shown that shows keto interferes with muscle growth? Vince Gironda is a great example of keto and muscle building, he was the Father of Bodybuilding. In the time there wasn't rampant PEDs being used.1 -
PiPDream01 wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.
What kind of science would convince you that keto hurts muscle gain?
Any, really how would it hurt muscle gain? Muscle gain is because of muscle stimulation from mechanical tension recruiting muscle fibers. There are studies that show, science studies that show the Pump actually impedes muscle hypertrophy. We have been around 2000,000 to 300,000 years and for all that we ate are animals. Also myself, I have done it and I am doing it. Looks at any study in the last 30 years and look who funded it and it supports there business products, You can studies that support drinking alcohol which is a drug, a poison. Show me a independent study like Tim Noakes has shown that shows keto interferes with muscle growth? Vince Gironda is a great example of keto and muscle building, he was the Father of Bodybuilding. In the time there wasn't rampant PEDs being used.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7911670/
Keep in mind, I don't think there's anything wrong with a ketogenic diet. It can be beneficial for metabolic health, it just may not be ideal if hypertrophy is the goal. Carbohydrates and insulin are an important part of protein synthesis, it's what helps get the protein into your cells. Without it, that may be hindered. But, every individual needs to find what works for them.0 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »PiPDream01 wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.
What kind of science would convince you that keto hurts muscle gain?
Any, really how would it hurt muscle gain? Muscle gain is because of muscle stimulation from mechanical tension recruiting muscle fibers. There are studies that show, science studies that show the Pump actually impedes muscle hypertrophy. We have been around 2000,000 to 300,000 years and for all that we ate are animals. Also myself, I have done it and I am doing it. Looks at any study in the last 30 years and look who funded it and it supports there business products, You can studies that support drinking alcohol which is a drug, a poison. Show me a independent study like Tim Noakes has shown that shows keto interferes with muscle growth? Vince Gironda is a great example of keto and muscle building, he was the Father of Bodybuilding. In the time there wasn't rampant PEDs being used.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7911670/
Keep in mind, I don't think there's anything wrong with a ketogenic diet. It can be beneficial for metabolic health, it just may not be ideal if hypertrophy is the goal. Carbohydrates and insulin are an important part of protein synthesis, it's what helps get the protein into your cells. Without it, that may be hindered. But, every individual needs to find what works for them.
Your body releases insulin when you ingest anything the amount is based on the food being brought in, because more glucose coming in more insulin, why because glucose is damaging in the blood the body wants it out of the blood as soon as possible.0 -
PiPDream01 wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »PiPDream01 wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »If you do nothing but deep ketosis, YOU WILL lose muscle at a faster rate.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 40 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Maybe explain the science behind that, I'm sure people doing or thinking of doing the lion diet might find it interesting and not quite sure what "deep ketosis" even means, it's not a scientific term and I'm guessing @PiPDream01 picked it thinking it might describe the lion diet when comparing to say, something like keto or other carnivore variants for example as a descriptor.
What kind of science would convince you that keto hurts muscle gain?
Any, really how would it hurt muscle gain? Muscle gain is because of muscle stimulation from mechanical tension recruiting muscle fibers. There are studies that show, science studies that show the Pump actually impedes muscle hypertrophy. We have been around 2000,000 to 300,000 years and for all that we ate are animals. Also myself, I have done it and I am doing it. Looks at any study in the last 30 years and look who funded it and it supports there business products, You can studies that support drinking alcohol which is a drug, a poison. Show me a independent study like Tim Noakes has shown that shows keto interferes with muscle growth? Vince Gironda is a great example of keto and muscle building, he was the Father of Bodybuilding. In the time there wasn't rampant PEDs being used.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7911670/
Keep in mind, I don't think there's anything wrong with a ketogenic diet. It can be beneficial for metabolic health, it just may not be ideal if hypertrophy is the goal. Carbohydrates and insulin are an important part of protein synthesis, it's what helps get the protein into your cells. Without it, that may be hindered. But, every individual needs to find what works for them.
Your body releases insulin when you ingest anything the amount is based on the food being brought in, because more glucose coming in more insulin, why because glucose is damaging in the blood the body wants it out of the blood as soon as possible.
I'm not trying to argue. You're going to believe what you want to believe, and that's ok. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with a ketogenic diet when done right, and everyone has to find what works for them.0 -
Good Monday Morning everybody, you can do anything for a week so let's be awesome. Time is man-made days are also in the universe today could be Wednesday but It's Monday the first day of our week, ever 7 days we get a fresh start on a fresh week. Find yourself!
P.S. I am enjoying this WOE, roar2 -
He who pays the Pipper calls the tune!!! Looking at study's online I notice lots of them are just cherry picket snippets of other studies to support whoever is funding it or their products. Now go back to the 1960's and read the book Strong Medicine by Dr Blake F. Donaldson and read his history of care, where he started and who he studied under, pretty interesting stuff. The same can be said about Vince Gironda's 36 eggs a day diet and where that came from, I believe a burn unit in NY.0
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Somethings are always true, and something are only true in certain context. HHD everyone!0
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With that being said reframing or changing your viewpoint makes things look different and sometimes more understandable. When discussing exercise and nutrition and you start to look at the inverse of your belief it still should make sense.0
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Just bouncing off what I said earlier, we need to really define and refine what our definition of healthy is.
IMO the foundation of health is just not one thing that everything else is built upon it's more like 3 things. I say it is and not in any particular order being metabolically healthy, hormones in proper balance and body composition. So, I just post this as my thoughts as I am going along this chapter of exploring a different approach to nutrition and health I like to explore and learn what each of those mean to me.1 -
only thing I could blab.. is a all protein diet does work and very well for a while.. the danger is a year or so in.. when the gut microbiome dies and suffers due to lack of plant based foods ( probiotics and prebiotics) that feed the good bacteria in the gut that keep immune system working. I am grain free and sugar free now.. but I eat 15 net carbs a meal.. and pay strict attention to my gut microbiome.2
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elisa123gal wrote: »only thing I could blab.. is a all protein diet does work and very well for a while.. the danger is a year or so in.. when the gut microbiome dies and suffers due to lack of plant based foods ( probiotics and prebiotics) that feed the good bacteria in the gut that keep immune system working. I am grain free and sugar free now.. but I eat 15 net carbs a meal.. and pay strict attention to my gut microbiome.
Yeah, that's not the way human nutrition works. A good story though. Also a carnivore diet isn't an all protein diet, there's actually more fat. Adding plant food to a carnivore diet increases inflammation that can effect the epithelial cells in the lining of our gut that can disturb the tight junctions which leaks causing various substances through causing gut issues that include IBS, abdominal pain, bloating, gas, diarrhea and microbiota disruption. Which is exactly what the carnivore diet improves.
Your story works better when whole plant food replaces a diet of mostly highly processed foods aka the SAD diet, then inflammation is reduced and gut microbiota is improved, it doesn't work the other way around.1 -
I have a great comment on this but I am going to save it for tomorrow but it is a great discussion point to talk about and look at it from multiple angles. We are all 99 % the same in DNA but we also do have biological differences and some of those are caused by environment over time and some from our parents. But I have an interesting point or view about this subject. Have a great night.
And thank you all for engaging in a thoughtful conversation0 -
Microbiome super-hot topic. A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning that uses irrelevant or invalid arguments to support a claim. People use fallacies to persuade others, but they can be misleading because they seem correct. that's what I think when I hear this and the many people talking about fiber because when you take what they are saying in support and flip it and look at the inverse of it, it doesn't make sense anymore. Just for a moment I'm going to stray from plants as food and look at milk. The reality is we are the only species on the planet that drinks milk from another species, and after we are toddlers. the gut bacteria that we use to digest milk goes away as we get older because we aren't supposed to continue with it "lactose intolerance" and we don't get calcium from it because we have to use stored calcium as part of the digestion process of milk. side note: we are the only species on the planet that gets fat and the animals we own. "If you are lactose intolerant, the bacteria that is typically considered "low" is the bacteria responsible for breaking down lactose, specifically lactase-producing bacteria like Bifidobacterium and certain strains of Lactobacillus; meaning your gut microbiome may not have enough of these bacteria to effectively digest lactose from dairy products." The gut microbiome is a lot of different types of bacteria that add is digestion so if I am not eating any or a little plant matter I would need as much of the bacteria used in its digestion so why would I need it, I look at the bacteria in the gut microbiome used to digest plant matter or fed from it and fiber more so as parasite in nature, it also can influence our decision to eat more or crave more sugary foods. For the 300,000-200,000 years we have been around we have not had this many varieties of foods, GMO/ man made by selection to increase sugar and palpability of fruits and veggies. So, what I'm trying to say, do we really need the bacteria in our digestive system that we are feeding? YES I know we need gut bacteria and there are billions of them and 500-1000 different species of them. I have friends that have horrible digestive issues, and they just keep saying they need more fiber and variety of fruits and veggies, probiotics and prebiotic's and nothing seems to help, and it seem to sometimes get worse. IMO we are not supposed to be fermenting organic life in our guts like ruminant animals do. One last think to think about and look out, Lectin's and its relationship to Parkinson's disease, how it travels up the vagus nerve into the brain0
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. "If you are lactose intolerant, the bacteria that is typically considered "low" is the bacteria responsible for breaking down lactose, specifically lactase-producing bacteria like Bifidobacterium and certain strains of Lactobacillus; meaning your gut microbiome may not have enough of these bacteria to effectively digest lactose from dairy products." The gut microbiome is a lot of different types of bacteria that add is digestion so if I am not eating any or a little plant matter I would need as much of the bacteria used in its digestion so why would I need it,
That's not the way it works. It's not gut bacteria that breaks down lactose it's an enzyme called lactase that breaks down lactose in the small intestine before it ever gets to our colon where most of our gut bacteria is. Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus can help manage the symptoms of lactose intolerance reducing gas, bloating and diarrhea for example and we get these 2 prebiotics from foods like kimchi, sauerkraut, kefir, miso and pickles for example. Bifidobacterium is something that new born babies get from the mothers birth canal for example in a natural childbirth scenario as opposed to a C-section and it's in breast milk as well. Bifidobacterium plays a crucial role in helping babies digest lactose.
From what I can tell quick digesting starches and sugars that actually start to get digested in the mouth and then mostly absorbed in the small intestine like your milk example and therefore just don't deliver many nutrients to the colon for bacteria like Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus which are your example and results in those beneficial bacteria not getting the nutrients they need to grow and maintain a healthy balance. As well, a diet high in refined carbs and sugar and UPF's can lead to an overgrowth of harmful bacteria and yeast in the gut and these microorganisms thrive on simple sugars, which can lead to an imbalance known as dysbiosis which has been closely linked to IBD, IBS and it's associated with diabetes 2, obesity and basically many metabolic diseases because of the inflammatory response within the gut consuming these foods.
Just a glimpse of what we know, which really isn't a lot. I find it truly fascinating but unfortunately many Doctors and people in general make a lot of claims that are just not borne out from the science yet, so we have to be careful what to ingest and what needs to end up in the trash. But yeah, fiber is turning out to be a religion with a lot of conflicting data, so it's just not that cut and dry and there's lots of room for nuance here.0 -
elisa123gal wrote: »only thing I could blab.. is a all protein diet does work and very well for a while.. the danger is a year or so in.. when the gut microbiome dies and suffers due to lack of plant based foods ( probiotics and prebiotics) that feed the good bacteria in the gut that keep immune system working. I am grain free and sugar free now.. but I eat 15 net carbs a meal.. and pay strict attention to my gut microbiome.
Sadly, a common sense approach such as this will be ignored by those promoting more radical diets, as is evidenced above. Virtually all science based research states that diversity in foods eaten is the best way to overall gut health. But that doesn't align with certain eating styles, so proponents of such diets will twist or ignore the science and draw new lines, new recommendations, and new claims to those diets curing all the illness everyone else has.
But then again, some will claim we can't get calcium from dairly products when it's a known that most people get the majority of their calcium intake from dairy products, green leafy vegatables, various fortified drinks, and mostly plant based products. But that doesn't align with "but anything with carbs makes us sick" so new claims are made that the magic comes into play, and nutrient needs all change in some way to lower standards.
Your example should be taken as one of being able to restrict your diet quite a bit, but still have (IMHO valid) concern for dietary needs and concerns and easily reach them. As such it will likely be ignored by those that ignore the overall dietary needs.1 -
Doctor: you've lost a lot of weight 60lbs and you no longer need medication for your diabetes because it's regressed, and your triglycerides have lowered from 325 to 61 and your HDL went up, good work.
Patient: my arthritis in my knees and hands are gone and my psoriasis completely clear up and my mental clarity and depression has improved a lot as well, and my IBS type symptoms are a non issue and my energy level is steady all day and I'm never hungry.
Doctor: wow, that's amazing, good for you. What have you done differently lately that might explain this?
Patient: I've gone on a Carnivore/keto diet?
Doctor: oh my god, do you know how dangerous that is, your going to get heart disease from all that meat. Don't you know what the science says and I recommend you get off that diet as soon as possible?
Patient: sure Doc, right away, bye bye.
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I've been carnivore for just over a year. It resolved my anemia, but I did gain weight because I was eating more calories. I'm getting back on track now with calories though. Lots of critics with keto/carnivore diets. Do what works best for you! Good luck in April with your competition!2
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