My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...
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In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!
Can I just say that you are awesome for your entire post? I really wish that more people, both omnivores & veg*ns shared this philosophy on how to treat people regarding what they eat. Whether someone eats meat or not has ZERO effect on anyone else. The only ones it effects are the animals they are consuming, and it's up to each person to decide if that conflicts with their morals or not (and contrary to popular belief, you are not morally superior or inferior based on if you eat meat or not, you just have different morals than the other).
If you are seriously completely basing whether you eat meat or not off of what people billions of years ago ate (oh no, people used to eat more vegetation than meat because the bear you might have eaten would MAUL YOU TO DEATH if you tried to hunt it down, guess I can't ever eat meat again!), what your teeth look like (oh no, I have canine teeth, guess I have to tear into a piece of meat now!), how long your digestive track is, etc. I hope that you some day develop the ability to think for yourself and formulate & follow your own personal philosophy, whatever it may be. Does it really matter if humans were "meant" to eat meat or not? No. They can, and they can also choose not to. Both can be valid, healthy ways to live.0 -
How about Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, all of the Caribbean, Most of South America... To the point people waste not a single once of animal protein. What cannon be eaten (like tail bones) is made into soup or stews.The fact that I am literate makes me civilized. And by the way, the vast majority of the human race does NOT eat meat. In most countries in the world, particularly the third world, meat is too expensive to be part of the diet.
The fact that I don't eat meat makes more more ethical.
Ok, now this is total bull-*kitten*. My family comes from one of those "3rd world countries" and we eat more meat than people eat here!
Oh yeah, we die due to crime...not due to meat eating, in my 3rd world country
Okay, what is the name of your third world country. I want to remember never to visit there.
Don't talk *kitten* about countries "inferior" than the US, we don't give a frack about this type of crap when you're making 2 dollars a day. We eat what's available and are happy and thankful. Quote all the pseudo science you want, but don't extend your ignorance to geography and ethnic studies. It's obvious you're out of your depth as it is.0 -
I don't understand the need to preach beliefs about what you think people should eat. Why do you care if I eat meat? I just finished a chicken burger from Trader Joe's and had a huge delicious steak last night. I can't wait for chicken and shrimp stir fry tonight. MMmmmmm!!! I also work out 8-10 hours a week doing intense cardio and weights. I think I am pretty darn healthy. (there's my pic right there....do I look ill?) I work in a family medicine office very closely with often very sick patients. I am rarely if ever sick. Neither is my family. (knock on wood)
Go eat what you want, embrace it, and leave others alone. lol0 -
The citations are all linked from the article you described as "an opinion piece".
It is an opinion piece. Any article that does not appear in a peer-reviewed journal is an opinon, not a serious article. Sorry.
If you want to be like that, every article is an opinion, as no person is without bias. An intelligent reader/researcher will look at the citations for any article they read and decide from there whether or not it is worth reading and trusting, they will not simply ignore it because it is not in a journal.
If you say so. But at least his peers will agree with him.0 -
Wow, can someone just kill this thread now? it's obviously causing fights, and I thought we didn't allow that here?
What I chose to eat is totally irrelevant to you, just like what you chose to eat is totally irrelevant to me.
I see polite disagreement, not 'fights' here.
If you don't care about the topic, then why come here?0 -
I don't understand the need to preach beliefs about what you think people should eat. Why do you care if I eat meat? I just finished a chicken burger from Trader Joe's and had a huge delicious steak last night. I can't wait for chicken and shrimp stir fry tonight. MMmmmmm!!! I also work out 8-10 hours a week doing intense cardio and weights. I think I am pretty darn healthy. (there's my pic right there....do I look ill?) I work in a family medicine office very closely with often very sick patients. I am rarely if ever sick. Neither is my family. (knock on wood)
Go eat what you want, embrace it, and leave others alone. lol
Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.0 -
I don't understand the need to preach beliefs about what you think people should eat. Why do you care if I eat meat? I just finished a chicken burger from Trader Joe's and had a huge delicious steak last night. I can't wait for chicken and shrimp stir fry tonight. MMmmmmm!!! I also work out 8-10 hours a week doing intense cardio and weights. I think I am pretty darn healthy. (there's my pic right there....do I look ill?) I work in a family medicine office very closely with often very sick patients. I am rarely if ever sick. Neither is my family. (knock on wood)
Go eat what you want, embrace it, and leave others alone. lol
You are expressing a point of view (pro-meat), even if you think you are coming across as neutral. This is not as 'live and let live' a statement as you may think it is.0 -
Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.
Perhaps the most ignorant thing I've seen on this site yet to date.0 -
How about Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, all of the Caribbean, Most of South America... To the point people waste not a single once of animal protein. What cannon be eaten (like tail bones) is made into soup or stews.The fact that I am literate makes me civilized. And by the way, the vast majority of the human race does NOT eat meat. In most countries in the world, particularly the third world, meat is too expensive to be part of the diet.
The fact that I don't eat meat makes more more ethical.
Ok, now this is total bull-*kitten*. My family comes from one of those "3rd world countries" and we eat more meat than people eat here!
Oh yeah, we die due to crime...not due to meat eating, in my 3rd world country
Okay, what is the name of your third world country. I want to remember never to visit there.
Don't talk *kitten* about countries "inferior" than the US, we don't give a frack about this type of crap when you're making 2 dollars a day. We eat what's available and are happy and thankful. Quote all the pseudo science you want, but don't extend your ignorance to geography and ethnic studies. It's obvious you're out of your depth as it is.
Gee, you get two dollars a day and can buy steak every night. Amazing! Can you tell me how you manage to do that?0 -
Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.
Perhaps the most ignorant thing I've seen on this site yet to date.
Why?0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?0
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Indeed. The majority of Western civilization still eats meat. The fact that you don't doesn't make you any more civilized.Yeah, well, I guess that is the difference between living in a civilized place and living in a jungle.
The fact that I am literate makes me civilized. And by the way, the vast majority of the human race does NOT eat meat. In most countries in the world, particularly the third world, meat is too expensive to be part of the diet.
The fact that I don't eat meat makes more more ethical.
*sets aside sarcasm just to say*
If you want to think you're more ethical because you can read and quote things at me, that is fine. You can live your morally and ethically superior life and not kill and eat the fowl, fishes, and beasts of the field. Just don't try to take away my *freedom* to do so and enjoy it. You'll be paying more for the obese who have to have gastric bypasses surgery and heart transplants because they didn't decide to lose the weight than you'll be paying for my bike riding, mountain hiking self (hopefully for many, many years to come), so the Obamacare argument is moot.
Unfortunately, we all have to die from something. The vegetarian and vegan roads do not lead to immortality any more than eating meat does so we'll just find our way to our own graves however we see fit.0 -
Unfortunately, we all have to die from something. The vegetarian and vegan roads do not lead to immortality any more than eating meat does so we'll just find our way to our own graves however we see fit.
*Clapping*
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Gee, you get two dollars a day and can buy steak every night. Amazing! Can you tell me how you manage to do that?
Have you ever heard of the wonders of capitalism? Free markets work by providing commodities to the masses and charging them as such. In open air markets there is no distinction between prime USDA beef and Angus. You pay for the cut you want, that's it. Food in other countries is viewed as a necessity. Neighborhood stores abound and produce is fresh and in season every month of the year.
As I said, your ignorance shows thoroughly on your pseudo-science responses. Don't continue to humiliate yourself in things too complex for your B-12 and iron deficient brain. :flowerforyou:0 -
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.
Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.
Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.
I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.
If you are saying tigers are able to eat berries then you are wrong. Tigers cannot eat berries. If you fed cats a vegan or vegetarian diet they will get sick and die a horrible death. Cats cannot produce the amino acid taurine on their own, the only way they can get this amino acid is in meat. Omnivores which is us, pigs, dogs are able to make this amino acid with a balance diet that includes animal by produce. Cats can't live off just animal by product it has to be pure meat because of this amino acid. This is why they are a true carnivore since no meat for a cat equals death.
First, virtually all carnivores eat berries or other plants when meat is not available. While I would not want a Tiger to try to live on blueberries, they can get nutritiion out of them and this type of food can sustain them..
Cats have only a LIMITED ability to synthesize the essential amino acid taurine from sulfur-containing amino acids. Therefore, a cat's diet must provide taurine. It also helps for the diet to be rich in sulfur-containing amino acids. Diets low in protein, and therefore sulfur-amino acids, are more likely to induce taurine deficiency. Therefore, even though cats CAN synthesize taurine, they would likely suffer and or die without meat. That is why they are carnivores. That is also why we are NOT carnivores.
Go make that argument to veterinarians that have to treat cats with detached retinas from owners who try to give their cat a vegetarian diet. BTW, the synthetic taurine causes cancer and no they can't not sustain on berries. Okay, you even state they will suffer and die but then you say they can sustain on berries
. We are not carnivores, we are omnivores but that does not mean we are herbivores and can live from a vegan diet. Maybe a vegetarian diet we can but its a lot easier to meet our protein needs with meat which we are able to use but a vegan diet we could not live on properly since it excludes animal by product. 0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?
I only care in so far as when (not if) you get colon cancer or heart diesease or some other chronic disease related to meat eating, that you are going to go to the public fisc and I am going to have to pay for your health care. I want you to live and die with your choices as I will live and die with mine. Health care is such a disaster in this country because of meat, and I for one am sick of paying the bill.0 -
Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.
How anyone could think that witholding medical care from someone because they can't afford it is the right thing to do is horrific. Everyone deserves to receive medical care, whether they can or can't afford it. You can whine about being "sattled" with someone elses medical bills, I'm thrilled my taxes pay for the NHS, it's one of the best uses of taxes that I can think of.0 -
I recently decided to not eat animals. Not because humans shouldn't eat meat but because of how the animals are treated before being slaughtered. I accidentally came across a video that changed my outlook. Their living conditions should scare us to not want to eat them anyway. So disgusting and with the hormones and antibiotics they are being given does not help humans either.
This was my decision and I do not enforce my lifestyle on anyone. My family eats meat....I choose not to. Each person can make an informed decision or just choose not to know where the food comes from.. Sometimes I wish I had never watched that video.
To each their own.0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?
I only care in so far as when (not if) you get colon cancer or heart diesease or some other chronic disease related to meat eating, that you are going to go to the public fisc and I am going to have to pay for your health care. I want you to live and die with your choices as I will live and die with mine. Health care is such a disaster in this country because of meat, and I for one am sick of paying the bill.
I wouldn't want to pay your health care bill from heart disease when you could of been adding some fish in your diet Mmm yummy meat. 0 -
The question of animals vs plants... Plants aren't sentient beings and that is the difference.
Animals, however, are sentient beings. I am against factory farming. If it was like in the days of animals having good lives up until slaughter....I would probably not be a vegetarian working towards vegan.0 -
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.
Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.
Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.
I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.
If you are saying tigers are able to eat berries then you are wrong. Tigers cannot eat berries. If you fed cats a vegan or vegetarian diet they will get sick and die a horrible death. Cats cannot produce the amino acid taurine on their own, the only way they can get this amino acid is in meat. Omnivores which is us, pigs, dogs are able to make this amino acid with a balance diet that includes animal by produce. Cats can't live off just animal by product it has to be pure meat because of this amino acid. This is why they are a true carnivore since no meat for a cat equals death.
First, virtually all carnivores eat berries or other plants when meat is not available. While I would not want a Tiger to try to live on blueberries, they can get nutritiion out of them and this type of food can sustain them..
Cats have only a LIMITED ability to synthesize the essential amino acid taurine from sulfur-containing amino acids. Therefore, a cat's diet must provide taurine. It also helps for the diet to be rich in sulfur-containing amino acids. Diets low in protein, and therefore sulfur-amino acids, are more likely to induce taurine deficiency. Therefore, even though cats CAN synthesize taurine, they would likely suffer and or die without meat. That is why they are carnivores. That is also why we are NOT carnivores.
Go make that argument to veterinarians that have to treat cats with detached retinas from owners who try to give their cat a vegetarian diet. BTW, the synthetic taurine causes cancer and no they can't not sustain on berries. Okay, you even state they will suffer and die but then you say they can sustain on berries. We are not carnivores, we are omnivores but that does not mean we are herbivores and can live from a vegan diet. Maybe a vegetarian diet we can but its a lot easier to meet our protein needs with meat which we are able to use but a vegan diet we could not live on properly since it excludes animal by product.
Simply not true, at least the part about us being omnivores. I will go with the opinion of the President of the American Society of Cardiologists, and everything I have read about evolution.
When I said they could sustain on berries I meant they could eat and get nutrition from berries, not that they could go their whole life on berries. Every carnivore I have ever heard of can get nutrition from plants. (I didn't say COMPLETE nutrition) Carnivores must have meat. I am not arguing with you on that. I AM arguing with you on your claim that we are omnivorees. We are herbivores both in terms of physiology and nutrition.0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?
I only care in so far as when (not if) you get colon cancer or heart diesease or some other chronic disease related to meat eating, that you are going to go to the public fisc and I am going to have to pay for your health care. I want you to live and die with your choices as I will live and die with mine. Health care is such a disaster in this country because of meat, and I for one am sick of paying the bill.
I wouldn't want to pay your health care bill from heart disease when you could of been adding some fish in your diet Mmm yummy meat.
Enjoy your heavy metals. Hope you don't get Parkinsons.0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?
^^^^ This, and my thoughts on why:
It's been my sad experience that folks who are "true believers" in anything don't tend to recognize their own preaching, but accuse those who disagree of preaching. I've got a number of vegan and vegetarian friends on Facebook, and some push like mad--story after story, link after link (most from the dippiest New-Age-y sites) telling the meat-eaters that we're all gonna die. It's not just an occasional thing, it's multiple posts daily that don't just push their point of view, but also condemn or ridicule alternate views. And you know what? I GET it--you find something you think is amazing and wonderful and you want to share it with as many people as you can. I understand that. Problem is, it is preaching, it is obnoxious, and worse, it's intolerant as all get out. Wanna be a vegan? Then BE a vegan! Enjoy that, live that, but for goodness' sake, don't hassle everyone else. I know, I know, it doesn't FEEL like hassling when YOU do it, but it is.
I have never, even once, poked or prodded a vegan or vegetarian friend about their dietary lifestyle. When I have them over for dinner, I make meals that everyone can enjoy. Sometimes that means two separate entrees, sometimes it means making a dish that all will enjoy. And I'm okay with that, just as I have had vegetarian friends who've made meat dishes separate for us. It's about respecting each others' choices and lifestyles and being happy to make someone else happy. I get why some don't eat animal products, and I can respect that, would never push them to make the leap to omnivore. It makes my heart glad that some of my friends pay me the same respect. Pisses me off that some don't.0 -
This is interesting. I have a degree in anthropology and one of the interesting facts about humans is that for most of our (anotomically human) history we did subsist largely on fruits, nuts, grains, etc. Meat was a 'luxury' and hard to come by (50,000 years ago there were no supermarkets, just you and the wild. What's easier, foraging for some grains and nuts that will quickly fill you up, or risk your life hunting an animal that could very well kill you?)
Additionally, the human digestive tract is long, which suggests that it was not intended for continuous digestion of animal protein (compare our digestive tract to that of a known carnivore, such as a lion, and you will see the difference immediately). I am a vegetarian myself, but largely for ethical reasons. But I will take the health benefits as well! Vegetarian diets have long been recognized to be a healthy alternative to a diet consisting largely of animal protein.
This is not to say that eating meat is contrary to "human nature," or that it is consistent with it - whatever that means (people argue both sides of this, believe it or not). But it does mean that our evolutionary history makes a vegetarian (or mostly vegetarian) diet very compatible with a healthy lifestyle.
The post below regarding our incisors being evidence of us being 'meat eaters' can easily be refuted, since incisors are remnants of our primate origins, not indicative of homo sapiens' eating patterns, per se (discussing our eating patterns 3 - 6 million years ago vs. 100,000 will yield very different conclusions!). In fact, most of our current teeth (and our chewing patterns) point to a style of eating consistent with grinding (lots of low flat teeth) usually associated with the breakdown of grains, nuts, legumes, etc., not with the tearing of flesh.
In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!
Thank you!0 -
Honestly, you can eat arsenic if you want. I don't care. I just don't want to be sattled with your medical bills when you develop colon cancer or heart disease. This is why we need to get rid of Obamacare so people like you can eat what you want, and I don't have to pay for it.
How anyone could think that witholding medical care from someone because they can't afford it is the right thing to do is horrific. Everyone deserves to receive medical care, whether they can or can't afford it. You can whine about being "sattled" with someone elses medical bills, I'm thrilled my taxes pay for the NHS, it's one of the best uses of taxes that I can think of.
The amount of medical resources is limited. They should be given first and formost to those who make the best choices. Would you give a scarce liver to an ancoholic? Neither would most hospitals. We simply have to extend that princinciple, since as I say, society just doesn't have the money to indulge everyone.0 -
You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.
Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.0 -
How is my post not live and let live? Please explain. I didn't push meat on anyone. I simply said I like to eat it and WTF should anyone care?
Here's what you said: "Go eat what you want, embrace it, and leave others alone. lol."
This is an opinion and a directive. You are telling people that you are pro-meat and want the discussion to end. A 'live and let live' attitude would not call for people to stop discussing something.0 -
The way you speak here makes me shudder. Seriosuly. I believe Karma will give you Parkinsons way more than eating meat or fish will. Be careful what you put out to the universe while you preach to strangers about what they eat. I would love to show you my lab numbers. They're ridiculous. My husband jokes that I need to eat cholesterol mine is so good.0
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Got it from the Encyclopedia he must've had for breakfast. Seems like he needs more fiber, his conclusions and theories are a bit...watery.You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.
Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.0 -
I don't find this to be a discussion. It's an arguement with one person basically telling everyone we are going to die and he is sick of paying our bills. I assure you, nobody here other than me and my employer pays for my healthcare.
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This discussion has been closed.
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