Getting discouraged. Lean bulk or cut? What should I do?
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I am looking at the Candito program and I like what I see. Are squats and deads smart to do the same day though?
Also, I might veer back to the icf program (without my changes) for the remainder of my cut
Yes, you can do squats and deads on the same day. Depends on the weight and volume. I do heavy deads and lighter squats one day and heavy squats and lighter deads on another.
Canditos program has a heavy day and a hypetrophy day. Would you swap one squat/dead for the other?
Why swap?0 -
In terms of personal experience, I'm pretty new to lifting, but even I can see that this is just going around in a circle. I have to admit it may be easier for me to say this given that I'm at the stage where I can progress rapidly without actually following a program. But I think it's a matter of simply grinding it out and having the determination to follow through, even when it may seem like there's not much progress now.0
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Seriously.LolBroScience wrote: »I am looking at the Candito program and I like what I see. Are squats and deads smart to do the same day though?
Also, I might veer back to the icf program (without my changes) for the remainder of my cut
Yes, you can do squats and deads on the same day. Depends on the weight and volume. I do heavy deads and lighter squats one day and heavy squats and lighter deads on another.
Canditos program has a heavy day and a hypetrophy day. Would you swap one squat/dead for the other?
Why swap?
I get people not understanding things but this is getting ridiculous. Same questions over and over in different forms. I'm mean is the OP trolling or is he 13 years old?
DO THE PROGRAM AS IT IS WRITTEN.
/thread0 -
Sorry all. Will do as written. This is definitely going around in circles. My fault. Thanks for everyone's input, I really appreciate everyone's help!
Hopefully I will see some results now.0 -
I also don't know that this was explicitly stated, but everyone has been saying: Do one program as written. It can be done both while you finish your cut and once you start your bulk. There is no reason to switch programming at this stage once you decide to bulk.0
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Hi all!
Today was my first day back in the gym, trying to apply the lessons you all have taught me. I am doing the routine AS WRITTEN, (I will get to that a little later), and I wanted to get opinions on how to progress now.
Firstly, I am cutting. So, according to ICF 5x5, I can tweak the workout to either 5x3, or keep 5x5, or even 5x4 (From what i gathered... whatever volume you can handle on the cut).
Here are today's lifts, with a little explanation with them. I would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction on how to progress, without hitting failure and plateauing.
Squat: 170 x 3 x 5
Bench Press: 155 x 4 x 5
Bent Over DB Row: 80 x 4 x 5
Shrugs (DB): 85 x 3 x 8
Tri press down: 75 x 2 x 8, 75 x 1 x 6 (NOT to failure)
DB Curls: 35 x 1 x 8, 40 x 2 x 8
Now, I didn't hit failure on any of these sets. So, I'm not sure if I should up the weight, and for which sets? This is where I get really turned around with how to progress, without progressing too quickly.
Additionally, I feel pretty good leaving the gym. I have this weird feeling that i could have worked harder, but maybe that's just because I wasn't hitting failure on all the last few sets of my lifts?0 -
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Read the Q&A and watch the video it should explain the progression scheme.
I'm assuming it is 5 lb increases in between each session, or each week since it says it is linear progression (I haven't looked into the program deeply).
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Well done on sticking to it. I haven't done IC 5x5 so I don't know the progression, what I would say is, FOLLOW THE PROGRAMME's suggestion on increasing =D
If you feel like it's not enough, why not stick to the 5x5 till you stall out? then think about cutting to 4 sets or 3.
edit: just wanted to add, don't worry about eventually plateauing - that's inevitable, you can't just keep getting stronger and stronger indefinitely, especially at deficit. When it does happen, that's when you start using deloads or dropping a set etc.0 -
Well done on sticking to it. I haven't done IC 5x5 so I don't know the progression, what I would say is, FOLLOW THE PROGRAMME's suggestion on increasing =D
If you feel like it's not enough, why not stick to the 5x5 till you stall out? then think about cutting to 4 sets or 3.
edit: just wanted to add, don't worry about eventually plateauing - that's inevitable, you can't just keep getting stronger and stronger indefinitely, especially at deficit. When it does happen, that's when you start using deloads or dropping a set etc.
The thing is, I'm doing a bit of a "deload" now, because I was stalling, esp on my cut. So now, I am just trying to figure out how to progress. I understand what everyone is saying regarding the progress. I'm assuming that my progress should ALSO not be to failure?
also, saying "Example Workout B: deadlift 200, next workout B: deadlift 200, next workout B: deadlift 205" isn't really answering my question. Obviously to progress i need add weight, however my question lies more in terms of:
205 for every set?
Just a few sets?
First set only?
What is the smartest way of going about this?
If i fail a set, "you repeat that weight during the next workout. If you fail the next workout, you lower your weight by 10% and continue to use that until progress. Reset weights get rounded down". So, do I drop ALL my sets down 10%? Or do I only drop the one I failed on?
It's little things like this that I feel are small, yet very important. I feel LIke I have been looking at this the wrong way for so long, which is why I've made hardly any progress.0 -
So I watched the video, and strangely he starts out by saying he actually recommends stronglifts as a program but because it was requested, he wrote ICF, which is essentially stronglifts with some accessory work (which is actually recommended with the stronglifts program as well).
Because of the above, I'd strongly recommend reading the stronglifts PDF, which I think would answer a lot of your questions. Basically, all your sets are at the same weight. Some people do warmup sets; those should not count as your x number of sets for the workout. When I squat, I do 5x45 (reps x weight), 4x65, 3x85, 3x8 at working weight (currently 115) as warmup. All of your working sets are at the same weight.
Failure is defined by not meeting your proscribed number of reps and sets. So, if you are trying to do 3x5 and you do 5, 5, 3, then that is considered a failure. Once the program instructs you to deload (I didn't finish watching the video, but SL is 3 times), you decrease your weight by the prescribed amount and then immediately restart the progression. So, you lift your sets at the deload weight and if you hit all your sets, then you increase by 5 pounds the next time you're supposed to increase.
The smartest way to do it, is to follow the program. I don't think you understand enough about how the program is written to be following it (and likely why you have not seen much progression over the last three years). Because ICF and SL are so similar, use the resources for both. SL has an extensive blog about the program and lots of questions and answers. READ EVERYTHING YOU CAN ABOUT THE PROGRAM. You need to understand how it works before you can run it.0 -
So I watched the video, and strangely he starts out by saying he actually recommends stronglifts as a program but because it was requested, he wrote ICF, which is essentially stronglifts with some accessory work (which is actually recommended with the stronglifts program as well).
Because of the above, I'd strongly recommend reading the stronglifts PDF, which I think would answer a lot of your questions. Basically, all your sets are at the same weight. Some people do warmup sets; those should not count as your x number of sets for the workout. When I squat, I do 5x45 (reps x weight), 4x65, 3x85, 3x8 at working weight (currently 115) as warmup. All of your working sets are at the same weight.
Failure is defined by not meeting your proscribed number of reps and sets. So, if you are trying to do 3x5 and you do 5, 5, 3, then that is considered a failure. Once the program instructs you to deload (I didn't finish watching the video, but SL is 3 times), you decrease your weight by the prescribed amount and then immediately restart the progression. So, you lift your sets at the deload weight and if you hit all your sets, then you increase by 5 pounds the next time you're supposed to increase.
The smartest way to do it, is to follow the program. I don't think you understand enough about how the program is written to be following it (and likely why you have not seen much progression over the last three years). Because ICF and SL are so similar, use the resources for both. SL has an extensive blog about the program and lots of questions and answers. READ EVERYTHING YOU CAN ABOUT THE PROGRAM. You need to understand how it works before you can run it.
x2 for emphasis...0 -
Well done on sticking to it. I haven't done IC 5x5 so I don't know the progression, what I would say is, FOLLOW THE PROGRAMME's suggestion on increasing =D
If you feel like it's not enough, why not stick to the 5x5 till you stall out? then think about cutting to 4 sets or 3.
edit: just wanted to add, don't worry about eventually plateauing - that's inevitable, you can't just keep getting stronger and stronger indefinitely, especially at deficit. When it does happen, that's when you start using deloads or dropping a set etc.
The thing is, I'm doing a bit of a "deload" now, because I was stalling, esp on my cut. So now, I am just trying to figure out how to progress. I understand what everyone is saying regarding the progress. I'm assuming that my progress should ALSO not be to failure?
also, saying "Example Workout B: deadlift 200, next workout B: deadlift 200, next workout B: deadlift 205" isn't really answering my question. Obviously to progress i need add weight, however my question lies more in terms of:
205 for every set?
Just a few sets?
First set only?
What is the smartest way of going about this?
If i fail a set, "you repeat that weight during the next workout. If you fail the next workout, you lower your weight by 10% and continue to use that until progress. Reset weights get rounded down". So, do I drop ALL my sets down 10%? Or do I only drop the one I failed on?
It's little things like this that I feel are small, yet very important. I feel LIke I have been looking at this the wrong way for so long, which is why I've made hardly any progress.
You are majoring in the minors0 -
I'm also reading/watching that I need to drop my working sets to about 75% of my 1 rep max, which is 174 lbs. Well, I'm currently working at about 90% (155 lbs). What's the point of dropping my weight down to 75% (131 lbs) when I can already do my sets 5x5 without a spotter? That's only an example but i'm sure it applies to all my lifts...
Also, " Failure is defined by not meeting your proscribed number of reps and sets. So, if you are trying to do 3x5 and you do 5, 5, 3, then that is considered a failure. " I totally understand, but what if I do, say, 5,5,5 week 1, but the next week I get 5,5,3. Techinically, I failed (didn't hit my goal), but i also trained to failure but trying to push out that last rep but FAILED. Should, in that case, I have stopped at 5,5,2? So I didn't burn out on the last set with that last FAILED rep, and saved my CNS from that burnout last rep? I still failed on my goal, but i didn't train to FAILURE. does that make sense?0 -
I'm also reading/watching that I need to drop my working sets to about 75% of my 1 rep max, which is 174 lbs. Well, I'm currently working at about 90% (155 lbs). What's the point of dropping my weight down to 75% (131 lbs) when I can already do my sets 5x5 without a spotter? That's only an example but i'm sure it applies to all my lifts...
Also, " Failure is defined by not meeting your proscribed number of reps and sets. So, if you are trying to do 3x5 and you do 5, 5, 3, then that is considered a failure. " I totally understand, but what if I do, say, 5,5,5 week 1, but the next week I get 5,5,3. Techinically, I failed (didn't hit my goal), but i also trained to failure but trying to push out that last rep but FAILED. Should, in that case, I have stopped at 5,5,2? So I didn't burn out on the last set with that last FAILED rep, and saved my CNS from that burnout last rep? I still failed on my goal, but i didn't train to FAILURE. does that make sense?
You should not be failing every time. We're not telling you that at some point you're not going to fail at reps. You shouldn't hold back because you're afraid of failing. But, you should not be intentionally training to failure each time.
As for where to start on weight. You haven't been following the program for a long time (at least not correctly), and your weights are not as high as they should be. I would recommend scaling WAY back and then work your way up. If you think your 1 rep max is 170, start at 120 or 100 even. It should be a long time before you ever fail.
Hell, if you read the SL worksheet, it tells you to start with the bar even if you feel like an idiot. I'd really recommend reading the information that Mehdi has provided because he really goes into why it is so much more benificial to start very light and progress steadily rather than trying to "stay tough" by keeping it heavy and quickly failing.0 -
I'm also reading/watching that I need to drop my working sets to about 75% of my 1 rep max, which is 174 lbs. Well, I'm currently working at about 90% (155 lbs). What's the point of dropping my weight down to 75% (131 lbs) when I can already do my sets 5x5 without a spotter? That's only an example but i'm sure it applies to all my lifts...
Also, " Failure is defined by not meeting your proscribed number of reps and sets. So, if you are trying to do 3x5 and you do 5, 5, 3, then that is considered a failure. " I totally understand, but what if I do, say, 5,5,5 week 1, but the next week I get 5,5,3. Techinically, I failed (didn't hit my goal), but i also trained to failure but trying to push out that last rep but FAILED. Should, in that case, I have stopped at 5,5,2? So I didn't burn out on the last set with that last FAILED rep, and saved my CNS from that burnout last rep? I still failed on my goal, but i didn't train to FAILURE. does that make sense?
You should not be failing every time. We're not telling you that at some point you're not going to fail at reps. You shouldn't hold back because you're afraid of failing. But, you should not be intentionally training to failure each time.
As for where to start on weight. You haven't been following the program for a long time (at least not correctly), and your weights are not as high as they should be. I would recommend scaling WAY back and then work your way up. If you think your 1 rep max is 170, start at 120 or 100 even. It should be a long time before you ever fail.
Hell, if you read the SL worksheet, it tells you to start with the bar even if you feel like an idiot. I'd really recommend reading the information that Mehdi has provided because he really goes into why it is so much more benificial to start very light and progress steadily rather than trying to "stay tough" by keeping it heavy and quickly failing.
Totally agree.
I'm doing Wendler's 531 right now and hit 1x7 for my final set (was supposed to be 1x1+). Could have repped out one more, but didn't. Point is, the weight was a little light for me, but in a couple of cycles, when I would have failed if I'd started heavier, I will most likely keep progressing. It's all about progress.0 -
I'm just nervous doing that while still cutting. (Everyone says to lift HEAVY to give your muscles a real reason to stick around and not get burned along with the fat). This could all be broscience, but I worry dropping my bench press 20lbs during a cut, and what affect that might have on my fat/lbm loss0
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You will not lose vast quantities of muscle mass by dropping your starting weight for your program during a deficit. You may however be able to increase your strength (even while on a deficit) while running the program correctly with appropriate linear progression. And because you only want to be in a deficit for a few more months, getting the lower weight start "out of the way" and progressing through the program will likely only lead to large strength (and mass) gains once you transition to your bulk.0
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I'm trying to find reading by mehdi on the subject, but can't find anything?0
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I'm trying to find reading by mehdi on the subject, but can't find anything?
http://stronglifts.com/0
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