Getting discouraged. Lean bulk or cut? What should I do?
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My waist might be going up too? It fluctuates weekly between 1/4-1 inch. It's also hard for me to determine how "relaxed" I am when I measure it from week to week. With such small increments, it's hard to tell exact progress on a weekly basis. I'm starting freak out.
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I'm not terribly focused on measuring - I tend to go by sight and feel. However, I remember reading a good tip from Waldo. When you measure, suck in, cheat like hell, try to make your waist as skinny as you can -- you're not trying for an accurate measure of your waist -- you're trying to gauge whether you're actually adding fat. By cheating as much as you can (especially if you're good at it), you'll likely get more consistent readings allowing you to see a trend. Compared to trying to get the same "relaxed, natural" posture each time.
As I said, never really played with it myself, but the advice stuck in my memory because it seemed to make sense to me when I at one time was trying to be more circumspect about tracking measurements.
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Welp, after weighing myself again a week later, I've gone up from 189.7 to 193.7.
That is SO MUCH WEIGHT. How am I gaining so fast??? I need to cut the cals. My waist might be going up too? It fluctuates weekly between 1/4-1 inch. It's also hard for me to determine how "relaxed" I am when I measure it from week to week. With such small increments, it's hard to tell exact progress on a weekly basis. I'm starting freak out.
If I lower the cals (but still have enough surplus to gain .5 lb/week) would some of this "fat" i've gained reverse itself? Visibly, I don't look like I gained any fat, but the scale / tape measure doesn't lie.
Could this be continued carb loading? (I've started a new protein powder that has a lot of carbs in it, so my carb levels and increased a lot)
Help!
First thing to do is just relax and stop winding yourself up, stress increases cortisol levels and that's anathema for you. Bulking, like losing, has it's share of dips and spikes that have nothing to do with actual fat or muscle gains or losses. You have not gained 4 pounds in a week, no way you've eaten that much unless you were 2000 cals over each day and I feel safe in saying that you are nowhere close to that. Also, you are getting bloating since your measurements are fluctuating like that.
What is your current surplus? If you are over 500 you might want to cut back to 500 a day and continue on. If you are below 500 then just keep moving forward for now and monitor your weight. 250 cals per day is the .5lb/week but you can do better than that given your situation, but if you are really stressed than drop to that for a week and watch what happens.
I'm currently bulking and going through the same issues, you just have to trust the numbers and the system. Bulking is a real head game so be prepared. You will always be able to cut later so don't stress too much. Just push the weights hard and log accurately.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Welp, after weighing myself again a week later, I've gone up from 189.7 to 193.7.
That is SO MUCH WEIGHT. How am I gaining so fast??? I need to cut the cals. My waist might be going up too? It fluctuates weekly between 1/4-1 inch. It's also hard for me to determine how "relaxed" I am when I measure it from week to week. With such small increments, it's hard to tell exact progress on a weekly basis. I'm starting freak out.
If I lower the cals (but still have enough surplus to gain .5 lb/week) would some of this "fat" i've gained reverse itself? Visibly, I don't look like I gained any fat, but the scale / tape measure doesn't lie.
Could this be continued carb loading? (I've started a new protein powder that has a lot of carbs in it, so my carb levels and increased a lot)
Help!
First thing to do is just relax and stop winding yourself up, stress increases cortisol levels and that's anathema for you. Bulking, like losing, has it's share of dips and spikes that have nothing to do with actual fat or muscle gains or losses. You have not gained 4 pounds in a week, no way you've eaten that much unless you were 2000 cals over each day and I feel safe in saying that you are nowhere close to that. Also, you are getting bloating since your measurements are fluctuating like that.
What is your current surplus? If you are over 500 you might want to cut back to 500 a day and continue on. If you are below 500 then just keep moving forward for now and monitor your weight. 250 cals per day is the .5lb/week but you can do better than that given your situation, but if you are really stressed than drop to that for a week and watch what happens.
I'm currently bulking and going through the same issues, you just have to trust the numbers and the system. Bulking is a real head game so be prepared. You will always be able to cut later so don't stress too much. Just push the weights hard and log accurately.
This makes me feel a bit better, but when I measured my weight last week, i had gained roughly 3 lbs over that past 10 days as well.
My current surplus is roughly 500-700. To be honest I'm not super detailed about it. I eat the same thing every day, so I roughly know i'm getting in 4000-4300 cals a day. I believe my maintence is anywhere from 3500-3700 cals.
It's always been hard for me to figure out and get it super exact.
What do you mean when you say I can "do better than that" .. does that mean I can afford to gain more?0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Welp, after weighing myself again a week later, I've gone up from 189.7 to 193.7.
That is SO MUCH WEIGHT. How am I gaining so fast??? I need to cut the cals. My waist might be going up too? It fluctuates weekly between 1/4-1 inch. It's also hard for me to determine how "relaxed" I am when I measure it from week to week. With such small increments, it's hard to tell exact progress on a weekly basis. I'm starting freak out.
If I lower the cals (but still have enough surplus to gain .5 lb/week) would some of this "fat" i've gained reverse itself? Visibly, I don't look like I gained any fat, but the scale / tape measure doesn't lie.
Could this be continued carb loading? (I've started a new protein powder that has a lot of carbs in it, so my carb levels and increased a lot)
Help!
First thing to do is just relax and stop winding yourself up, stress increases cortisol levels and that's anathema for you. Bulking, like losing, has it's share of dips and spikes that have nothing to do with actual fat or muscle gains or losses. You have not gained 4 pounds in a week, no way you've eaten that much unless you were 2000 cals over each day and I feel safe in saying that you are nowhere close to that. Also, you are getting bloating since your measurements are fluctuating like that.
What is your current surplus? If you are over 500 you might want to cut back to 500 a day and continue on. If you are below 500 then just keep moving forward for now and monitor your weight. 250 cals per day is the .5lb/week but you can do better than that given your situation, but if you are really stressed than drop to that for a week and watch what happens.
I'm currently bulking and going through the same issues, you just have to trust the numbers and the system. Bulking is a real head game so be prepared. You will always be able to cut later so don't stress too much. Just push the weights hard and log accurately.
This makes me feel a bit better, but when I measured my weight last week, i had gained roughly 3 lbs over that past 10 days as well.
My current surplus is roughly 500-700. To be honest I'm not super detailed about it. I eat the same thing every day, so I roughly know i'm getting in 4000-4300 cals a day. I believe my maintence is anywhere from 3500-3700 cals.
It's always been hard for me to figure out and get it super exact.
What do you mean when you say I can "do better than that" .. does that mean I can afford to gain more?
When I say you can do better I mean you have potential to gain more than 1/4lb of muscle per week, which is what you are roughly doing at a 500 cal surplus. However, if you feel that you are unable to handle the fat gains you can drop your surplus a bit and have a cleaner bulk but you will need to bulk longer to get the same results. It's up to you since it's your bulk but just realize the trade offs you will be making. A 500 surplus is not a fast bulk and should be about as clean as you can get.
ETA BTW, who are you estimating your maintenance? You should probably start logging more accurately to determine where you actual maintenance is or else you are just feeling around in the dark.0 -
Are you weighing daily? Did you eat a meal with a lot of salt or a lot of carbs? It could just be water weight, and you may get a better idea of your weight if you weigh daily and take a 7 day average.0
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Guys
I'm really discouraged. I am not making any progress. I keep stalling on my lifts, and my body looks no better than it did a few months ago
Is 5x5 just not for me? Should I switch to a more bodybuilding - stylized split? Should I contiune to bulk, or cut? I'm really disappointed in myself and hate my body. I don't know what else to do.0 -
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Guys
I'm really discouraged. I am not making any progress. I keep stalling on my lifts, and my body looks no better than it did a few months ago
Is 5x5 just not for me? Should I switch to a more bodybuilding - stylized split? Should I contiune to bulk, or cut? I'm really disappointed in myself and hate my body. I don't know what else to do.
What program are you actually on?
How long have you been on the program?
How have your lifts progressed during that time?
How many pounds have you gained?
ICF 5x5
A long time - at least 6 months
Lifts have gone up, but not as much as I feel they should have. I still squat very light and can't even bench my body weight
My weight was going up, but I have to eat 4000 cal a day just to gain any weight. I have not kept up with my bulk due to my stomach gut. I feel like I shluld cut but I have no muscle anywhere else. It's so frustrating. I'm 190 @ 6'20 -
Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more0
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Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more
That's the same number of reps essentially
5x5 = 25 reps
3x8 = 24 reps
Assuming you're working at a higher intensity on the 5x5, you'll have more volume with the 5x5.0 -
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All my lifts have gone up maybe 10 lbs in that time. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I make sure my form is as perfect as it can be, and I eat in surplus.
I honestly give up. I dont know what else to do.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more
That's the same number of reps essentially
5x5 = 25 reps
3x8 = 24 reps
Assuming you're working at a higher intensity on the 5x5, you'll have more volume with the 5x5.
I see that in the end it all evens out, but does that mean it works the same hypertrophy-wise? I do feel like I begin to wear out mid workout, and I find it hard to train with enough "intensity", but I'm not sure what that even entails.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more
That's the same number of reps essentially
5x5 = 25 reps
3x8 = 24 reps
Assuming you're working at a higher intensity on the 5x5, you'll have more volume with the 5x5.
I see that in the end it all evens out, but does that mean it works the same hypertrophy-wise? I do feel like I begin to wear out mid workout, and I find it hard to train with enough "intensity", but I'm not sure what that even entails.
Are you logging your food our just guessing? Are you logging your works out just guessing? You are right that you are behind the curve but why is the question. If you are running out of gas you may not be eating as much as you think.
Also, the fact that all your exercises are going up about the same weight is not normal progression. You should be putting more on squats and deads than bench and rows.
I can see why you are frustrated but we aren't getting a full picture.0 -
Here's a pic for reference. I have too much bf and my shoulders/arms /chest really need to be built up. Can someone please give me advice as to what to do. I am at the end of my rope
I haven't read the whole thread, and not to pile on, but do you work you legs? You call out how the upper body needs to be built up, but your legs don't appear any more muscular than your upper body. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on compound lower body movements will help overall growth. I saw a few posts where you were questioning progress on bicep and tricep exercises. These are some of the last things you should be concerned about if you want to get big and strong. Think compound upper body work; pull-ups, rows, bench/push-ups, dips, shoulder press, etc.
Good luck.
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Also, the photo you posted seems kind of like an accidental photo. Weekly (or monthly depending on your preference) progress photos could really help you too. They should be taken in a similar pose with similar lighting to help you see small differences.
Also, are you taking measurements? There can always be minor differences in how tight you pull the tape measure, but you should notice a trend over a period of time.0 -
Have you thought about working with a personal trainer who has experience in bodybuilding.0
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Maybe you should be more functional orientated. I swim (proper swim in a club) with a couple of strength sessions in the gym perweek with a focus towards improving times and perhaps winning a race one day. I am a lot more focused than when I did gym based fitness with no purpose in sight! My weight has gone up and my body fat % has dropped. I have to stop the body fat loss % now or I will sink!0
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LolBroScience wrote: »Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more
That's the same number of reps essentially
5x5 = 25 reps
3x8 = 24 reps
Assuming you're working at a higher intensity on the 5x5, you'll have more volume with the 5x5.
I see that in the end it all evens out, but does that mean it works the same hypertrophy-wise? I do feel like I begin to wear out mid workout, and I find it hard to train with enough "intensity", but I'm not sure what that even entails.
Intensity as a % of your 1RM.
That's the main difference... it's easier to accumulate volume through higher reps generally speaking. You're working at a lower intensity, need less rest, less chance of injury, less time consuming etc.0 -
paul_phish wrote: »Maybe you should be more functional orientated. I swim (proper swim in a club) with a couple of strength sessions in the gym perweek with a focus towards improving times and perhaps winning a race one day. I am a lot more focused than when I did gym based fitness with no purpose in sight! My weight has gone up and my body fat % has dropped. I have to stop the body fat loss % now or I will sink!
I like this idea, more specifically because you seem to have a lot of confidence and emotional things going on OP. Switching to a more functional approach and shifting your focus from aesthetics to something with more rapid, and positive feedback, may be a good thing.0 -
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Would it be better if I switched to a more 8x3 etc style that leads to more hypertrophy? After all since I'm bulking my main concern is size not strength. I just want to fill out in my shoulders/arms/chest some more
Not sure if this advice is any good for you, being a guy, but in regards to upper body strength, I didn't really see much progression on a 5x5 style programme either. Switching to Wendlers really helped me out on OHP and bench (my delts are looking smashing, if I say so myself).
It has strength and hypertrophy (main lifts: strength, assistance:hypertrophy). I'd only consider switching once you've stalled out on all your lifts though.
Don't feel down about seeing results from your bulk - you won't really see what's happened until after your cut. I wouldn't give up on it right now, it looks like you could still do with building up and you don't look like you are carrying too much fat ATM. Stick with it for as long as you can stand as there'll be diminishing returns from future bulks.
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If I recall correctly, you had a really difficult time sticking to one program because you weren't seeing results, and so you kept modifying things. Have you been sticking with ICF's progression program as well as how to handle deloads and failures?
You started this thread on November 4th. How much weight have you gained since then? You seem to be guessing at your intake and maintenance levels going by what you have said in previous comments. You should be tracking as accurately as possible, and making adjustments if you aren't seeing appropriate increases in weight.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
Here's a pic for reference. I have too much bf and my shoulders/arms /chest really need to be built up. Can someone please give me advice as to what to do. I am at the end of my rope
I haven't read the whole thread, and not to pile on, but do you work you legs? You call out how the upper body needs to be built up, but your legs don't appear any more muscular than your upper body. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on compound lower body movements will help overall growth. I saw a few posts where you were questioning progress on bicep and tricep exercises. These are some of the last things you should be concerned about if you want to get big and strong. Think compound upper body work; pull-ups, rows, bench/push-ups, dips, shoulder press, etc.
Good luck.
I have begun squats/deads which are still pretty weak, but I have been progressing on. (Not slabbing on 10lbs a workout like everyone else seems to be able to do) but still adding progression.0 -
I'm sorry but your lack of ability to get unto specifics that are being asked of you in this thread probably reflect the approach you are taking to your programing. You need to put in more effort.All my lifts have gone up maybe 10 lbs in that time. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I make sure my form is as perfect as it can be, and I eat in surplus.
I honestly give up. I dont know what else to do.
Sorry but I have been here there and back again with specifics. From freaking out over micro nutrients to the exact form of my tricep press downs, I am EXTREMELY detail oriented in my life, especially in my workouts. Everyone then tels me to just "eat and lift" which drives me crazy because it gives me no parameters
I do track my lifts. I can list out an exact progression week by week tonight so you can see what I have accomplished, if that helps.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
Here's a pic for reference. I have too much bf and my shoulders/arms /chest really need to be built up. Can someone please give me advice as to what to do. I am at the end of my rope
I haven't read the whole thread, and not to pile on, but do you work you legs? You call out how the upper body needs to be built up, but your legs don't appear any more muscular than your upper body. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on compound lower body movements will help overall growth. I saw a few posts where you were questioning progress on bicep and tricep exercises. These are some of the last things you should be concerned about if you want to get big and strong. Think compound upper body work; pull-ups, rows, bench/push-ups, dips, shoulder press, etc.
Good luck.
I have begun squats/deads which are still pretty weak, but I have been progressing on. (Not slabbing on 10lbs a workout like everyone else seems to be able to do) but still adding progression.
So you weren't doing them when you started the ICF program?0 -
If I recall correctly, you had a really difficult time sticking to one program because you weren't seeing results, and so you kept modifying things. Have you been sticking with ICF's progression program as well as how to handle deloads and failures?
You started this thread on November 4th. How much weight have you gained since then? You seem to be guessing at your intake and maintenance levels going by what you have said in previous comments. You should be tracking as accurately as possible, and making adjustments if you aren't seeing appropriate increases in weight.
Until about a month ago I was very specific on my intake, etc. a series of personal issues kept me from being super accurate, but I still ate and went to the gym. I was gaining about 1 lb a week. Lifts (ohp, bench, row) all stalled. Squat is still low enough that it's progressinf.
I have dropped down -10-20% when I fail 2x at a certain lift. Only to work back up, and get stuck at the same spot again (example is 175x5x5 for bench). That has happened 2x already.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
Here's a pic for reference. I have too much bf and my shoulders/arms /chest really need to be built up. Can someone please give me advice as to what to do. I am at the end of my rope
I haven't read the whole thread, and not to pile on, but do you work you legs? You call out how the upper body needs to be built up, but your legs don't appear any more muscular than your upper body. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on compound lower body movements will help overall growth. I saw a few posts where you were questioning progress on bicep and tricep exercises. These are some of the last things you should be concerned about if you want to get big and strong. Think compound upper body work; pull-ups, rows, bench/push-ups, dips, shoulder press, etc.
Good luck.
I have begun squats/deads which are still pretty weak, but I have been progressing on. (Not slabbing on 10lbs a workout like everyone else seems to be able to do) but still adding progression.
So you weren't doing them when you started the ICF program?
I was. I started VERY light. I'm up to about 155 lbs now. I started at maybe 110 lbs. I kept having to go back and adjust form, make sure I was lowering enough, etc.0
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