Getting discouraged. Lean bulk or cut? What should I do?
Replies
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
^ Yes to this. You are tired halfway through because that is a long workout. I just noticed that you said you are stalling and deloading on curls. Are you trying to lift to failure on the accessories? I am not too familiar with ICF, but it looks like the program intends the accessories to be supplemental hyper work. In other words, hit your accessory reps with a weight you are comfortable with and don't have to struggle too much to finish the set. Rest 1 minute or less between accessory sets. You don't need to punish yourself with heavy curls after you just finished your heavy compounds.
Yeah i tend to go as heavy as I can on the accessory work. I want to progress with those, so how else would I be able to get stronger with them if I don't push myself each workout? Isn't that counterintuitive?
No, don't do that. Accessory work is called that for a reason. Your progress on that program will be driven by your compounds. You add weight to your accessories when they become so easy they feel like they are not stimulating anymore. If you could add 5 pounds to your DB curls every week, you would be breaking world records within a year.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x5
Still should not take 90 mins for any 5x5 program in the novice phase of training. The novice phase is when you are conditioning your body and building it up mostly with compound movements. You need to either cut the sets on accessories or cut them out compeltely. I wouldn't do more than 3x8 on accesories. NOTE: that's 3 set of 8 reps. You should not rest much between sets on these either since they are building exercises.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x5
Still should not take 90 mins for any 5x5 program in the novice phase of training. The novice phase is when you are conditioning your body and building it up mostly with compound movements. You need to either cut the sets on accessories or cut them out compeltely. I wouldn't do more than 3x8 on accesories. NOTE: that's 3 set of 8 reps. You should not rest much between sets on these either since they are building exercises.
I'm just following ICF 5x5 to a T, as told to do so by everyone here. The creator says that the program should take around 90 min.0 -
Yeah i tend to go as heavy as I can on the accessory work. I want to progress with those, so how else would I be able to get stronger with them if I don't push myself each workout? Isn't that counterintuitive?
I know the program doesn't call for this method, but an option could be to add reps instead of weight for the accessories lifts.
So you could run 5 week cycles, for example if you wanted to work in the 6-10 rep range:
Week 1 - 3x6
Week 2 - 3x7
Week 3 - 3x8
Week 4 - 3x9
Week 5 - 3x10
If you hit 3x10 in week 5 you would add weight to the bar for that lift before restarting the 5 week cycle. This is how I do my accessory work and I find it pretty good and I use weekly linear progression for the main lifts by adding weight to the bar.
It's still pretty tough progression but you might find it less taxing than adding weight to the bar each week / session.0 -
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x5
Still should not take 90 mins for any 5x5 program in the novice phase of training. The novice phase is when you are conditioning your body and building it up mostly with compound movements. You need to either cut the sets on accessories or cut them out compeltely. I wouldn't do more than 3x8 on accesories. NOTE: that's 3 set of 8 reps. You should not rest much between sets on these either since they are building exercises.
I'm just following ICF 5x5 to a T, as told to do so by everyone here. The creator says that the program should take around 90 min.
I read up some more on ICF 5x5 and it looks like you're right, it should take about 90 minutes. It seems like Stronglifts 5x5 with a bunch of accessory exercises added. I did Stronglifts 5x5 a long time ago, and I remember it was pretty tough just by itself. I would definitely take it easy on that accessory work if you are doing ICF 5x5.0 -
It looks fine, the compressed version looks pretty good if you are short on time. No conventional deadlifts though? That might suck. ICF might be a bit too much for you right now. I remember it used to kick my *kitten* when I ran it for about 6 months and I was eating a tonne of food.
If you stick with ICF maybe consider a deload week, if that doesn't help you could drop back to 3x5 instead of 5x5 for heavy sets and see if you can add weight to the bar. Just some suggestions, I'm sure others have said similar things.0 -
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To me, the fact that your accessory work has progressed faster than your main lifts suggests you are Majoring in the minors and need to shift focus to the basic compounds. Honeslty even SL 5x5 can be a lot of volume for many, and adding the accessory work can detract progress for many as well.
I think a portion of this is high expectations and building muscle takes time. I think when you aren't seeing results fast enough you are questioning this program and not giving it your max effort, as you alluded to.
I think All-Pro and Fierce 5 can both be good programs aimed at bodybuilding beginners. It is a common problem for new lifters (myself included) to try to switch programs every couple of months which can lead to spending too much time getting into the groove of a program. You work out 4.5 hours a week and how much time do you spend reading about lifting, reading programs, or looking at other physiques you would like to have your body look like? It's easy to get a little ADHD and obsessive.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x5
Still should not take 90 mins for any 5x5 program in the novice phase of training. The novice phase is when you are conditioning your body and building it up mostly with compound movements. You need to either cut the sets on accessories or cut them out compeltely. I wouldn't do more than 3x8 on accesories. NOTE: that's 3 set of 8 reps. You should not rest much between sets on these either since they are building exercises.
I'm just following ICF 5x5 to a T, as told to do so by everyone here. The creator says that the program should take around 90 min.
ICF does usually run about 90 minutes including rest times and all. The way the program is designed the first few are compounds and obviously rest periods are slightly longer than the ending accessory movements. Any longer than 90 minutes then you're either killing time talking or just lounging around.
90 mins seems long but if that's the program I'll retract my statements. I think it's a too much for a novice but it's proven.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x5
Still should not take 90 mins for any 5x5 program in the novice phase of training. The novice phase is when you are conditioning your body and building it up mostly with compound movements. You need to either cut the sets on accessories or cut them out compeltely. I wouldn't do more than 3x8 on accesories. NOTE: that's 3 set of 8 reps. You should not rest much between sets on these either since they are building exercises.
I'm just following ICF 5x5 to a T, as told to do so by everyone here. The creator says that the program should take around 90 min.
ICF does usually run about 90 minutes including rest times and all. The way the program is designed the first few are compounds and obviously rest periods are slightly longer than the ending accessory movements. Any longer than 90 minutes then you're either killing time talking or just lounging around.
90 mins seems long but if that's the program I'll retract my statements. I think it's a too much for a novice but it's proven.
Too much for many! I did ICF for awhile and found it was too long because (1) I'd sometimes feel mentally if not physically drained before I completed a workout; and (2) tough to find 90 minutes in too many days (ain't nobody got time for that! - well, some do, but I didn't always have that sort of time available).0 -
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How do you get abs like that? My abs are not nearly as visible as yours, is it more ab work or less eating?0
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It's not him. He's already clarified.0
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
How do you do that if you're bulking or that's not possible is it?0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
How do you do that if you're bulking or that's not possible is it?
Not naturally0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
How do you do that if you're bulking or that's not possible is it?
I'll add to what LBS said, get your bulk first then shred it.0 -
Okay all,
If i'm being honest with myself, i would have to say that I am sick of hte ICF 5x5 workouts.
A.) I'm bored
B.) It's a lot of volume... not sure if i can keep up with the progression
What should I do now? Should I move on to another program? I really want to focus on hypertrophy now. I dont think I juiced out all my max strength gains on ICF, but strength isn't really my goal, and honestly, I have been dreading going to the gym because I am just so. bored. with my workouts.
Do any of you have suggestions for me? here are my current main lifts:
BB bench: 175 5x5
Squat: 180 5x5
OHP: 105 5x5
Bent Over Rows: 160 5x5
What do you think?0 -
Bump?0
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Find another program, I guess. I did ICF 5x5 for a while, but I just couldn't find enough time in the gym to do it on a semi-regular schedule with some sessions pushing past 90 mins (I have an irregular work & family schedule, and always finding 90 mins on workout days just wasn't conducive to other priorities). Wouldn't say I got bored, but I know what you mean about needing to switch something up.
I have enjoyed doing this: aworkoutroutine.com/the-muscle-building-workout-routine/ (ignore the silly name).
It is a blend of strength and hypertrophy in that some of the big lifts you're effectively doing in a 4 - 6 rep range as you move up in weight, and you're pretty squarely in traditionally-recommended hypertrophy range on the "less-compound" and clearly accessory lifts. Longest days never run more than 47 - 48 minutes in the gym, and shorter days I might be out in 33 - 35 minutes if I want.
Look around on bb.com and find something that you believe is well-designed and proven and better meets your goals.0 -
Do what you want to do. I think I mentioned the Candito program like 19 pages back or something...0
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Okay all,
If i'm being honest with myself, i would have to say that I am sick of hte ICF 5x5 workouts.
A.) I'm bored
B.) It's a lot of volume... not sure if i can keep up with the progression
What should I do now? Should I move on to another program? I really want to focus on hypertrophy now. I dont think I juiced out all my max strength gains on ICF, but strength isn't really my goal, and honestly, I have been dreading going to the gym because I am just so. bored. with my workouts.
Do any of you have suggestions for me? here are my current main lifts:
BB bench: 175 5x5
Squat: 180 5x5
OHP: 105 5x5
Bent Over Rows: 160 5x5
What do you think?
Wendler 5/3/1 with higher reps for max size gains on your accessory lifts, should help out.0 -
You look good to me right this second, to be honest. Maybe you should consult with a trainer, if you haven't already. And I need glasses. I read 6'2 as 62 and nearly fell off my chair when I saw the pictures. LOL. I almost got excited about getting old.0
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What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
Push Routine A
Bench presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Incline dumbbell presses 3 x 8, 8, 6
Military presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Upright rows 3 x 10, 8, 8
Barbell shrugs 3 x 10, 8, 6
Pushdowns 3 x 10, 8, 6
Lying extensions 3 x 8, 8, 6
Standing calf raises 3 x 12, 10, 8
Seated calf raises 3 x 15, 12, 10
Pull Routine B
Incline sit-ups 2 x 30-40
Incline knee raises 2 x 30-40
Squats 3 x 10, 8, 6
Leg curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
Wide-grip chins 3 x 10, 8, 8
Barbell rows 3 x 8, 8, 6
Deadlifts 3 x 8, 8, 6
Barbell curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
Push Routine B
Incline presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Dumbbell bench presses 3 x 8, 8, 6
Seated dumbbell presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Lateral raises 3 x 10, 8, 8
Dumbbell shrugs 3 x 12, 10, 8
Close-grip bench presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Dips 3 x 10, 8, 8
Donkey calf raises 3 x 15, 15, 15
Leg press calf raises 3 x 12, 10, 8
Pull Routine B
Hanging knee raises 2 x 20-30
Kneeling cable crunches 2 x 20-30
Leg presses 3 x 12, 10, 8
Stiff-legged deadlifts 3 x 10, 8, 8
Pulldowns 3 x 10, 8, 6
One-arm dumbbell rows 3 x 10, 8, 8
Hyperextensions 3 x 15
Seated dumbbell curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.0 -
Actually, thinking about All Pro's as well. anyone have thoughts on that routine?0
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That push/pull split looks like poop. If you're not enjoying ICF 5x5 I doubt you would last long doing that. All Pro's SBR would be good, it has built in progression / deloads so you wouldn't need to worry about trying to regulate this yourself as you would with the split. Just use the strength you've gained from ICF to push hard for reps on SBR. Should get good results if you stick with it.0
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Sorry you're not excited by your program but that's not necessarily a reason to change it. Working out isn't about excitement but progress. You can always find another beginner program but Wendler will slow your progress. You aren't an intermediate lifter so I would stay in the beginner programs but switching all the time isn't the best idea.
I've never used a 5x5 myself so I'm not partial to them but unless there is a good reason other than boredom then stick with it would be my advice.0 -
What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
Push Routine A
Bench presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Incline dumbbell presses 3 x 8, 8, 6
Military presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Upright rows 3 x 10, 8, 8
Barbell shrugs 3 x 10, 8, 6
Pushdowns 3 x 10, 8, 6
Lying extensions 3 x 8, 8, 6
Standing calf raises 3 x 12, 10, 8
Seated calf raises 3 x 15, 12, 10
Pull Routine B
Incline sit-ups 2 x 30-40
Incline knee raises 2 x 30-40
Squats 3 x 10, 8, 6
Leg curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
Wide-grip chins 3 x 10, 8, 8
Barbell rows 3 x 8, 8, 6
Deadlifts 3 x 8, 8, 6
Barbell curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
Push Routine B
Incline presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Dumbbell bench presses 3 x 8, 8, 6
Seated dumbbell presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Lateral raises 3 x 10, 8, 8
Dumbbell shrugs 3 x 12, 10, 8
Close-grip bench presses 3 x 10, 8, 6
Dips 3 x 10, 8, 8
Donkey calf raises 3 x 15, 15, 15
Leg press calf raises 3 x 12, 10, 8
Pull Routine B
Hanging knee raises 2 x 20-30
Kneeling cable crunches 2 x 20-30
Leg presses 3 x 12, 10, 8
Stiff-legged deadlifts 3 x 10, 8, 8
Pulldowns 3 x 10, 8, 6
One-arm dumbbell rows 3 x 10, 8, 8
Hyperextensions 3 x 15
Seated dumbbell curls 3 x 10, 8, 6
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.
Not a fan, too much volume. AND not to mention that you should not be working abs before doing deadlifts, or other compound lifts, you do not want a fatigued core when doing those exercises.0
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