Getting discouraged. Lean bulk or cut? What should I do?
Replies
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If I recall correctly, you had a really difficult time sticking to one program because you weren't seeing results, and so you kept modifying things. Have you been sticking with ICF's progression program as well as how to handle deloads and failures?
You started this thread on November 4th. How much weight have you gained since then? You seem to be guessing at your intake and maintenance levels going by what you have said in previous comments. You should be tracking as accurately as possible, and making adjustments if you aren't seeing appropriate increases in weight.
Until about a month ago I was very specific on my intake, etc. a series of personal issues kept me from being super accurate, but I still ate and went to the gym. I was gaining about 1 lb a week. Lifts (ohp, bench, row) all stalled. Squat is still low enough that it's progressinf.
I have dropped down -10-20% when I fail 2x at a certain lift. Only to work back up, and get stuck at the same spot again (example is 175x5x5 for bench). That has happened 2x already.
The weight progress seems like you're on track. As for getting stuck at the same weight, have you tried recording your form and posting for critique? If you're having problems progressing past the same spot each time, it may be a form issue.0 -
I'm sorry but your lack of ability to get unto specifics that are being asked of you in this thread probably reflect the approach you are taking to your programing. You need to put in more effort.All my lifts have gone up maybe 10 lbs in that time. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I make sure my form is as perfect as it can be, and I eat in surplus.
I honestly give up. I dont know what else to do.
Sorry but I have been here there and back again with specifics. From freaking out over micro nutrients to the exact form of my tricep press downs, I am EXTREMELY detail oriented in my life, especially in my workouts. Everyone then tels me to just "eat and lift" which drives me crazy because it gives me no parameters
I do track my lifts. I can list out an exact progression week by week tonight so you can see what I have accomplished, if that helps.
Yes, I would like to see the exact progression numbers the entire way through. I don't care how detailed it is. Or how long. I enjoy numbers upon numbers. Let me see them. How you are in your real life doesn't translate here. You came here for help so please provide all of the information.
Will do! tonight I will go in and run some numbers for you guys.0 -
Benching 175 5x5 at 188 is not terrible. It's not great but it's about at novice progression. http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html
More data points will help. I'm not familiar with all the differences with ICF, but I wonder how many stalled lifts you would get on the third try. I have done that several times on SL.
And sorry if you answered this earlier, there's a lot to sift through in this thread... What's your rest time between sets on your big compounds?0 -
jenglish712 wrote: »Benching 175 5x5 at 188 is not terrible. It's not great but it's about at novice progression. http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html
More data points will help. I'm not familiar with all the differences with ICF, but I wonder how many stalled lifts you would get on the third try. I have done that several times on SL.
And sorry if you answered this earlier, there's a lot to sift through in this thread... What's your rest time between sets on your big compounds?
Wait time on big compounds is 3 min (the recommended) and 90 seconds for accessory lifts0 -
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I thought you were going to provide numbers
Here's what I got:
11/17/14:
Squats - 105x5x5
OHP - 65x5x5
Bent over BB row - 85x5x5
Close grip Bench Press - 110x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
Bench - 145x5x5
DL- 185x5x1
Shrugs - 65x8x3
Tricep extension - 65x8x3
02/14/15:
Squat - 155x5x5
DL - 215x5x1
Bench - 170x5x5 (stalled twice, dropped 10% and working my way up)
OHP - 100x5x5 (have stalled at 105 twice, working my way back up)
Bent over bb row - 150x5x5 (form beginning to suffer, might need to drop again soon)
Close grip bb bench - 145x8x3
Tricep extension - 75x8x3
Shrugs - 180x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.0 -
I believe if you look you will find many of the best bodybuilders in history started in powerlifting and are damn strong. They built a base and went from there.0 -
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.
It looks like decent progress over the past few months. To look the way you want, if you do things right it will probably take a couple of years or more.
I might be wrong but do you think your mindset might hold you back? You can be stronger than you think if you get your mindset right and push yourself hard. I have been learning that lately.
ICF is a pretty decent routine, it will get you big and strong. I wouldn't change to a higher rep routine yet, because I think you will have the same problems.
You just need to keep working hard, push yourself and have patience. If you do these things and eat enough food, you will get good results for sure.0 -
Guys
I'm really discouraged. I am not making any progress. I keep stalling on my lifts, and my body looks no better than it did a few months ago
Is 5x5 just not for me? Should I switch to a more bodybuilding - stylized split? Should I contiune to bulk, or cut? I'm really disappointed in myself and hate my body. I don't know what else to do.
What program are you actually on?
How long have you been on the program?
How have your lifts progressed during that time?
How many pounds have you gained?
ICF 5x5
A long time - at least 6 months
Lifts have gone up, but not as much as I feel they should have. I still squat very light and can't even bench my body weight
My weight was going up, but I have to eat 4000 cal a day just to gain any weight. I have not kept up with my bulk due to my stomach gut. I feel like I shluld cut but I have no muscle anywhere else. It's so frustrating. I'm 190 @ 6'2
This doesn't add up somewhere. If you are putting enough intensity into your workout while bulking, then your strength and size will go up, regardless of what program you are doing. Do you feel like you may be overtraining? That can slow down progress.
At this stage, your strength should be going up rapidly. If you are not growing at 4000 calories then go higher. Don't be afraid to get a little fatter, it will come off later. Bulk aggressively because you are at a stage for prime muscle building opportunity. Some people here recommend to gain half a pound a week, but that never made sense to me for those just starting out on strength training. It will take you forever to get results that way.
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You're not burning the place down but your progress is respectable on both progress pics and workout numbers. I would give it more time and keep working hard and eating big. You are pretty much average on your progression so don't sweat it.0
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I thought you were going to provide numbers
Here's what I got:
11/17/14:
Squats - 105x5x5
OHP - 65x5x5
Bent over BB row - 85x5x5
Close grip Bench Press - 110x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
Bench - 145x5x5
DL- 185x5x1
Shrugs - 65x8x3
Tricep extension - 65x8x3
02/14/15:
Squat - 155x5x5
DL - 215x5x1
Bench - 170x5x5 (stalled twice, dropped 10% and working my way up)
OHP - 100x5x5 (have stalled at 105 twice, working my way back up)
Bent over bb row - 150x5x5 (form beginning to suffer, might need to drop again soon)
Close grip bb bench - 145x8x3
Tricep extension - 75x8x3
Shrugs - 180x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.
I would suggest sticking with 5x5 for a while until you get a really good strength base to build from. At that time I would suggest, if you are lifting for aesthetics, switching to a body building routine. You will get more out of the BB routine if you have a good strength base to build from.0 -
Do not cut.0
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I understand everyone looks different and develops differently, but if I could get anywhere as near to this physique I would say it's my end goal. I realize I need to cut fat and build muscle. I just don't know how to get there anymore. I'm so frustrated
Stop comparing yourself to others. You're not him. You don't have his genetics, his environment. He could have been lifting for years with consistency...you haven't.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »You're not burning the place down but your progress is respectable on both progress pics and workout numbers. I would give it more time and keep working hard and eating big. You are pretty much average on your progression so don't sweat it.
I hope I didn't confuse anyone... that second photo is my GOAL photo, not what I look like now. To another poster's point, I do realize this will take quite a while to acheive. I don't expect to look like this over night. But I do want to feel like some progress (especially physically) is being made.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »I understand everyone looks different and develops differently, but if I could get anywhere as near to this physique I would say it's my end goal. I realize I need to cut fat and build muscle. I just don't know how to get there anymore. I'm so frustrated
Stop comparing yourself to others. You're not him. You don't have his genetics, his environment. He could have been lifting for years with consistency...you haven't.
I understand. I just wanted to provide an example of the size/amount of leanesss I would love to aspire to. I know i would never actually Look like him. But I don't want people getting the wrong idea that I'm trying to look like an Arnold Swartzanneger or something.
Again, his look is my ULTIMATE goal. I will be happy with a little more mass, and leaness, for the next few years down the road. I just want to make sure I work to get there.0 -
I thought you were going to provide numbers
Here's what I got:
11/17/14:
Squats - 105x5x5
OHP - 65x5x5
Bent over BB row - 85x5x5
Close grip Bench Press - 110x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
Bench - 145x5x5
DL- 185x5x1
Shrugs - 65x8x3
Tricep extension - 65x8x3
02/14/15:
Squat - 155x5x5
DL - 215x5x1
Bench - 170x5x5 (stalled twice, dropped 10% and working my way up)
OHP - 100x5x5 (have stalled at 105 twice, working my way back up)
Bent over bb row - 150x5x5 (form beginning to suffer, might need to drop again soon)
Close grip bb bench - 145x8x3
Tricep extension - 75x8x3
Shrugs - 180x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.
I would suggest sticking with 5x5 for a while until you get a really good strength base to build from. At that time I would suggest, if you are lifting for aesthetics, switching to a body building routine. You will get more out of the BB routine if you have a good strength base to build from.
What do I do in the sense that I keep stalling at 175x5x5 for bench? or 35x8x3 for DB curls? As another user pointed out, maybe I am overtraining?
I am trying to find ways to progress, so i drop down in weight, control the speed, fine-tune form, but when I get back to the old weight, I fall into the same problem all over again.0 -
I thought you were going to provide numbers
Here's what I got:
11/17/14:
Squats - 105x5x5
OHP - 65x5x5
Bent over BB row - 85x5x5
Close grip Bench Press - 110x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
Bench - 145x5x5
DL- 185x5x1
Shrugs - 65x8x3
Tricep extension - 65x8x3
02/14/15:
Squat - 155x5x5
DL - 215x5x1
Bench - 170x5x5 (stalled twice, dropped 10% and working my way up)
OHP - 100x5x5 (have stalled at 105 twice, working my way back up)
Bent over bb row - 150x5x5 (form beginning to suffer, might need to drop again soon)
Close grip bb bench - 145x8x3
Tricep extension - 75x8x3
Shrugs - 180x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.
I would suggest sticking with 5x5 for a while until you get a really good strength base to build from. At that time I would suggest, if you are lifting for aesthetics, switching to a body building routine. You will get more out of the BB routine if you have a good strength base to build from.
What do I do in the sense that I keep stalling at 175x5x5 for bench? or 35x8x3 for DB curls? As another user pointed out, maybe I am overtraining?
I am trying to find ways to progress, so i drop down in weight, control the speed, fine-tune form, but when I get back to the old weight, I fall into the same problem all over again.
If you are worried about your numbers, you can always do the program starting strength instead as it is a 3x5 set up so you should be able to lift a little more then progress. Since it is lower volume you can also throw in some higher rep lower weight work in at the end.0 -
I thought you were going to provide numbers
Here's what I got:
11/17/14:
Squats - 105x5x5
OHP - 65x5x5
Bent over BB row - 85x5x5
Close grip Bench Press - 110x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
Bench - 145x5x5
DL- 185x5x1
Shrugs - 65x8x3
Tricep extension - 65x8x3
02/14/15:
Squat - 155x5x5
DL - 215x5x1
Bench - 170x5x5 (stalled twice, dropped 10% and working my way up)
OHP - 100x5x5 (have stalled at 105 twice, working my way back up)
Bent over bb row - 150x5x5 (form beginning to suffer, might need to drop again soon)
Close grip bb bench - 145x8x3
Tricep extension - 75x8x3
Shrugs - 180x8x3
Db curls - 35x8x3
I started fairly light in the beginning of the program, most of my lifts being at about 70% my 1rm. So the progression was much easier in the beginning. I have stalled on a few lifts a number of times, and most importantly, I feel like when I see photos of myself, I don't look any better than i did before. I am doing this mostly for aesthetics, not strength. I know they go hand-in-hand sometimes, so I'm wondering if a higher rep routine is better for my goals.
I would suggest sticking with 5x5 for a while until you get a really good strength base to build from. At that time I would suggest, if you are lifting for aesthetics, switching to a body building routine. You will get more out of the BB routine if you have a good strength base to build from.
What do I do in the sense that I keep stalling at 175x5x5 for bench? or 35x8x3 for DB curls? As another user pointed out, maybe I am overtraining?
I am trying to find ways to progress, so i drop down in weight, control the speed, fine-tune form, but when I get back to the old weight, I fall into the same problem all over again.
If you keep stalling on the 5x5 then move on to something else for 3 to 6 weeks, then come back to 5x5 and see what happens. Nobody stays on the same program forever because you will run into plateaus. I have always made much faster strength gains hitting heavy singles and triples and heavy negatives, even when I was a beginner.0 -
Research overtraining symptoms if you think it may apply to you. You can fix overtraining by deloading for a week or two.0
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I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles0 -
I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.0 -
I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?0 -
I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
Are you properly fueled before your workout? You might just be running out of energy in the middle. Personally, I run strong lifts which only takes about 40-50 minutes, but it's only 3 compound lifts per session; no accessory work.
I don't know if it would be a better program for your goals, but it may be a better program mentally. However, I haven't tried lots of different programs, so I'll let others weigh in on programming. I'm not sure if it's worth it for you to switch or not.0 -
I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
^ Yes to this. You are tired halfway through because that is a long workout. I just noticed that you said you are stalling and deloading on curls. Are you trying to lift to failure on the accessories? I am not too familiar with ICF, but it looks like the program intends the accessories to be supplemental hyper work. In other words, hit your accessory reps with a weight you are comfortable with and don't have to struggle too much to finish the set. Rest 1 minute or less between accessory sets. You don't need to punish yourself with heavy curls after you just finished your heavy compounds.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
No I'm not doing SL 5x5. I'm doing ICF 5x50 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I just want to make sure it's ok i've been doing this routine for so long. I know it's mostly "broscience" to confuse your muscles so often, but is it ok if I'm using the same routine for such an extended amount of time? What are good ways to break past this plateau?
For example, my bench, I knocked down 10-15%, and worked on slower negatives, then exploding up. that worked fine and well, until I hit my highest # again, which was the exact same as it was before i deloaded.
I keep running aorund in circles
Not that everyone is the same, but I ran strong lifts for over a year without an issue. I mentally got burnt out on it (and I think because of this I stalled more often; I wasn't pushing myself hard enough), did a different program for a while, injured myself, and just started back on Strong Lifts. At some point I will probably switch to a more intermediate program, but I'm still seeing some good progression.
That's the thing - i feel like i've been running this program for so long, that i come into each workout with energy and enthusiasm, but then halfway through it (it takes about 90 minutes to complete), I dont find myself pushing myself as hard as I should be.
How can I adjust this problem? Switch routines? Any others that would be comperable?
90 mins? No, that does sound like SL 5x5 to me. You need to cut the accesories down if you are doing that many that it takes you so long to get through a workout. Unless you are an experienced lifter 90 mins will fry you mind and body.
^ Yes to this. You are tired halfway through because that is a long workout. I just noticed that you said you are stalling and deloading on curls. Are you trying to lift to failure on the accessories? I am not too familiar with ICF, but it looks like the program intends the accessories to be supplemental hyper work. In other words, hit your accessory reps with a weight you are comfortable with and don't have to struggle too much to finish the set. Rest 1 minute or less between accessory sets. You don't need to punish yourself with heavy curls after you just finished your heavy compounds.
Yeah i tend to go as heavy as I can on the accessory work. I want to progress with those, so how else would I be able to get stronger with them if I don't push myself each workout? Isn't that counterintuitive?0 -
Also wondering what people's thoughts on Crossfit are, and if that would help me toward my aesthetic goals? Does anyone have an experience with it? Maybem being with an instructor and being pushed each session, I could acheive better results? just a thought...0
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