How long between reps before it's not a "set" anymore?
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I have done quite a bit of research. I already read all of Starting Strength as well. I truly don't need advice on how to squat, I'm doing just fine. Perhaps you don't understand Newtonian physics and the concept of center of mass.
what did i say that made you mad?
Also, I'm taller than you, weigh 55 pounds less, am 20 years older and I still squat more than you. So even if it were the point of this thread, how smart would I be to take your advice on how to squat?this sounds like aunt gretchen's version of the widowmaker squat set. if that's what you are going for, don't be scared and just do real widowmakers instead
regardless, those types of workouts are for hypertrophy and not as much strength gains - if you are trying to be a bodybuilder, sure go ahead - but i recommend getting way more strength (not that i'm saying you are weak, but you aren't bodybuilder strong) before you try to sculpt yourself into arnold
unless of course you just want to get a little bigger to show off to the mistress, in which case: by all means carry on
i would think as a SAH dad you'd have plenty of free time to do research about how best to maximize your gains.. in which case you'd know what i'm talking about
now please stop taking things personally. and try a widowmaker set before telling someone a set of 15 with 15rm is hard
edit - also after reading your last post - it seems like you do need advice on how to squat - i suggest Starting Strength - Rippetoe will help your squat form
I'm not mad, I'm laughing. I see no reason to take advice from someone whose results aren't even comparable to my own. I'm squatting up to 1.5 BW, you're not even doing your own. Why would anyone in their right mind think you know more about squatting? It's a pretty straightforward question, if you want to imagine there's anger behind it then go for it.
I don't care about your widowmakers. It's not really about whether it's hard. You seem to think this is a contest to prove what a badass you are. Like I said if you want to argue with the HST program, you need to address that with the person who came up with it. Maybe you can explain to him where his knowledge of muscle physiology is lacking and why his recommendation of 15's is wrong.
As far as telling me which program I should or shouldn't use, first I didn't ask anyone and second my results speak for themselves. According to my measurements I dropped from 20-17% body fat and put on 2 lbs of LBM in the last 6 weeks, and I also progressed just as much on my 5RMs as I would have if I had stayed on SL and kept the same pace. (Unless somehow my strength gains would have accelerated, which doesn't happen.) I really don't understand why anyone would argue with results. It must take a special sort of mental gymnastics to think you're going to win that one.
It's also funny (and, like The Exorcist, keeps getting funnier and funnier every single time I see it) because this thread was intended to be a poll, and people think they need to give advice. It's like posting "what's your favorite pizza" and then all the responses are "you're eating too much pizza" "you're not eating enough pizza" "you shouldn't eat pizza after 7PM" or "you're eating it wrong you should use a fork." I don't remember if more than one or two people actually answered the OP as it was intended.
But kinda like my HRM it's still entertaining, just not in the way it was intended to be.
tl;dr
read starting strength and watch some videos to learn how to do the proper squat so that your bar is on a straight vertical path (versus "moving the bar forward"). also the only explosive squats you will ever have will be on the can - try power cleans and snatch if you want to be explosive
also, i hope by now you understand the difference between a rep and a set. do you?0 -
^^ agreed. i don't for a second believe he is squatting anywhere near his claims. without question he is half squatting. the funny part was him going on about how max squats have no use for jumping. simply lol... it's like he doesn't understand strength is critical for power and that every template for jumping has pure strength training...0
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Right, because whatever dogma you've acquired about squatting must be true and anything that violates your beliefs must be a lie.^^ agreed. i don't for a second believe he is squatting anywhere near his claims. without question he is half squatting.
Wow, that train gif is a great representation of your reading comprehension. I didn't say max squats have no use for jumping. Also which part of "I'm not exclusively doing 15's" are you not getting? Maybe next you can claim that my entire workout consists of only 15 squats using helium balloons.the funny part was him going on about how max squats have no use for jumping. simply lol... it's like he doesn't understand strength is critical for power and that every template for jumping has pure strength training...0 -
Right, because whatever dogma you've acquired about squatting must be true and anything that violates your beliefs must be a lie.^^ agreed. i don't for a second believe he is squatting anywhere near his claims. without question he is half squatting.
Wow, that train gif is a great representation of your reading comprehension. I didn't say max squats have no use for jumping. Also which part of "I'm not exclusively doing 15's" are you not getting? Maybe next you can claim that my entire workout consists of only 15 squats using helium balloons.the funny part was him going on about how max squats have no use for jumping. simply lol... it's like he doesn't understand strength is critical for power and that every template for jumping has pure strength training...
do more power cleans0 -
The weight lifting program I use has me rest 1 minute between sets so if I rest more than that then it's a new set.0
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What? You rest 1 min between sets but it you rest more than that it's a new set? Doesn't make sense. No matter if you rest 1 or 5 min it's a new set either way.The weight lifting program I use has me rest 1 minute between sets so if I rest more than that then it's a new set.0 -
There's gotta be a typo in there somewhere.The weight lifting program I use has me rest 1 minute between sets so if I rest more than that then it's a new set.
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Are you referring to rest-pause training?0
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I pause in between my last 2 reps all the time. I lift heavy so there's no way I could finish with the same rhythm as when I start reps 1-7 or 8 (i do 10 reps usually). In between sets...I usually rest for about a minute or 2. Depends on the muscle I'm working on. With legs I need more time than I do arms for example.Rest-Pause is a valid method of forced reps IMO. So if you can't get another full rep, pause for a few seconds while still holding the weight and go for one or two more.
Drop sets are another forced rep method, so that's gotta be a couple of seconds to switch weight.
Any more than about 10 seconds an you're just resting I reckon, but of course it depends what you're doing - 20 reps of squats and you may need a bit of a pause at 10 to steady yourself on your feet!0 -
Ok seems some confusion here on holding your breath. So to clarify.
1) You MUST hold your breath when doing ANY heavy compound movement. there is no exception to this. The technique even has a name. http://www.crossfithoboken.com/2011/09/20/the-valsalva-manuever-a-mind-blowingly-useful-technique/
2) You do NOT hold your breath for the entirety of the set. Or even the rep.
3) So lets use squats as an example. You unrack and have a pile of weight on your shoulders and you're standing there. during this part of the lift you can breath normally. When you're ready to do the rep, you take a deep breath, and tighten your core solid. You then drop into the pocket, while STILL holding your breath. you then start to lift yourself back up. while STILL holding your breath. You THEN once you're rising can start to exhale if you want.
4) Why do you do this? Because in the pocket is the most dangerous place to be to suddenly have your core give out. When someone exhales, their core WILL relax. Your back will then be unprotected and you're possibly effed. Keeping your breath in keeps your core strong and solid. As you rise, your core strength becomes less a concern and the more you need primary driver. Thats where exhaling to get that bit of explosive oomph can come into play. But even then, it's not uncommon to see top lifters hold their breath the entire way through and just 'exhale' while keeping breath in. (their cheeks puff way out and face turns red, but they don't actually breath out)
Very interesting. Thanks.0 -
For an encore can you give chin-up advice?do more power cleans0 -
For an encore can you give chin-up advice?do more power cleans
keep your chin up, you'll get your squats right someday0 -
ROFL. Well played.keep your chin up, you'll get your squats right someday
This is more like what I'm talking about. It probably depends on the individual and the exercise, but there are at least some exercises where you can't do "your max reps" (depending on how you define that) all at exactly the same rhythm. You might either:Rest-Pause is a valid method of forced reps IMO. So if you can't get another full rep, pause for a few seconds while still holding the weight and go for one or two more.
A- only count as many as you can do at "regular" speed,
2- slow down all of your reps even at the beginning so that you can get the last ones in at the same pace as the first,
D- do your beginning reps faster and when you hit "a wall" slow down (or pause) long enough to get in another rep (or two, etc)
For example if you can do 4 benches at the same pace, and then a 5th one after a few seconds (but not in synch with the first 4) do you prefer to do a "set of 5" that way or do you file that weight in your 4-rep range?
(Please note the difference between "do you prefer" (for yourself) and "should I" and realize that I am not asking "should I?":laugh: )0 -
OMFG.
I thought I had a nice plan to start lifting my little dumbells in moves I remember and have been finding on youtube and just focus on my form and going slow on the up and the down.
NOW thanks to this insane thread I'm gonna be all ridiculous the whole time wondering if I'm breathing right or should be breathing at all or holding for what?....45 seconds! Huh?
In regular workoutland all the workouts I ever did you exhale on the exertion. Is that not the same when pushing or pulling a weight? Am I missing something?0 -
Rest Pause and Drop sets aren't Forced Reps. Forced reps is when someone helps you with your rep. Rest-Pause you stop the set and take tension off the muscle for 5-15 sec before attempting another rep.Rest-Pause is a valid method of forced reps IMO. So if you can't get another full rep, pause for a few seconds while still holding the weight and go for one or two more.
Drop sets are another forced rep method, so that's gotta be a couple of seconds to switch weight.
Any more than about 10 seconds an you're just resting I reckon, but of course it depends what you're doing - 20 reps of squats and you may need a bit of a pause at 10 to steady yourself on your feet!0 -
LMAO. Yeah it's pretty much the stereotype of a forum thread gone wrong. Someone tries to provide an example, people take it hyper-literally and it goes all pear-shaped. Don't worry though, no matter which lifts and how much weight you do you will have at least several self-appointed experts simultaneously telling you it's too much and too little, the wrong lift, that your form is wrong, you're going to injure yourself, and you're lying about how much you did.OMFG.
I thought I had a nice plan to start lifting my little dumbells in moves I remember and have been finding on youtube and just focus on my form and going slow on the up and the down.
NOW thanks to this insane thread I'm gonna be all ridiculous the whole time wondering if I'm breathing right or should be breathing at all or holding for what?....45 seconds! Huh?
There's a whole spectrum which includes breathing normally, exhaling on exertion, blocking it somewhat (which may or may not result in grunting or yelling depending on how you block it) or totally holding it, and everything between, depending on quite a few factors. As a wise man once said, "jux do wat werkz 4 u."In regular workoutland all the workouts I ever did you exhale on the exertion. Is that not the same when pushing or pulling a weight? Am I missing something?0 -
Just try it both ways and see which way you like it better.0
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It seemed like such a simple question....0
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Apparently I've blundered across the next "what do you count as water." Needs improvement though: no mention of the microwave aka deathbox, and it could have gone at least 18-25 pages if it had been hijacked by a coach.It seemed like such a simple question....0 -
BTW on the topic of squats since there are people having trouble understanding this, let's look at the Starting Strength example that everyone likes to use as how to squat.
The problem with using this as a universal example is that it falsely assumes all humans have exactly the same proportions. (To be clear, Starting Strength does not assume, and he specifies that you will need to adjust for your own body's individual variations.) Compared to the diagram, my femurs are long as hell, and my torso is short, as you can see in this picture.
The effect is it puts the heavier end of my torso further away from my center of mass, which produces lots of leverage trying to make me tip over backwards. My torso isn't as long either, notice my head is not sticking out anywhere near as far as the diagram's head. So unless my torso grows longer or my skull gets hyooge, I cannot put my head out far enough to counterbalance my rear end. The only reasonable way to do this is to put the barbell itself forward of my feet. I can't even squat flat-footed without a barbell because I just tip backwards.
Also please notice that my forearms are way longer than the diagram too. If this dude extended his fingers all the way they still wouldn't even reach my wrist. This limits where I can choose to put the bar, in this pic is as low as it can go. Because I'm sure people are going to start trying to give me advice about putting the bar lower. (And the other half will be telling me to put it higher, LOL.)
This is an example for entertainment purposes only, since I never ever squat with only 70 lbs. I can't even go any lower in this pic because there's not enough counterbalance with only 70 lbs. But anyone of reasonable intelligence can get the point of what's being illustrated here. So, adjust your squats for your body's metrics and enjoy.0 -
Now now calm down, there's no need to get hysterical. Like I said it's only 70 lbs and for entertainment purposes only. I used 70 because it exaggerates the offset and makes it more visible.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of levers knows that it's a function of force applied times distance. Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.
Which is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.0 -
My old post was deleted. But point still stands, you have no clue what you're talking about. there is ZERO circumstance EVER where the barbell weight should be anywhere but over your foot. And there is not a single person on Earth with knowedge of squats who disagrees. you're more than welcome to try and find someone who agrees with you to prove otherwise, but they do not exist.Now now calm down, there's no need to get hysterical. Like I said it's only 70 lbs and for entertainment purposes only. I used 70 because it exaggerates the offset and makes it more visible.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of levers knows that it's a function of force applied times distance. Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.
Which is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.0 -
OP try spreading your feet out a little more and spread your knees out as you go down (imagine there is a rope pulling your knees out to the side) and maybe point your toes wider a little - hard to see from this angle
the whole time you are doing this, keep that straight vertical drop to your toes in mind. the center of gravity is the bar - bend your legs and at the hip appropriately to accommodate
also, hard to be sure with this angle of picture, but it looks like you have the bar on your shoulders which is bad.. look up low bar squat form.
edit - and remember to go slow.. squat isn't an explosion lift0 -
Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.
So how far does your head have to be forward if you use zero weight? O.oWhich is what I was trying to say before, my form has to change depending on the amount of weight on the bar. If I tried to squat 250 like that I'd tip over forward. If I tried to squat 70 the way I squat 250 I'd fall over backwards.
The weight on the bar (or lack there of) shouldn't significantly change your form.
In the picture of you squatting, the bar should be farther back and your torso more upright. Move your knees slightly forward to bring your butt in and keep your balance. I'm not saying it has to be directly over the center of your foot, but it should be a LOT closer than what it is. When the bar is farther forward than your knees, as in the picture, you're putting way to much stress on your back. And by way to much stress, I mean you WILL eventually hurt yourself this way.
And I (and a lot of people that have posted on the derailed part of the topic) realize this isn't the original question, just bear in mind that we're actually trying to help. Some in nicer ways than others.0 -
Just to add to the above, it looks as though you are doing an exaggerated low bar but with a high-bar bar position. See here:
With a high bar, you need to be a lot more upright (and more upright with a low bar too - the load should not impact the positioning).0 -
[/quote]Doubling the force and half the distance achieves the same result. By putting 140 on the bar, for example (but I also don't squat 140) then the bar needs to be half as far from the fulcrum. How would it get there? By me bending less at the waist. The higher the weight on the bar, the more upright I need to get my torso in order to stay in balance, and the lower I can squat.
So how far does your head have to be forward if you use zero weight? O.o
LOL. That's what I was saying, I literally cannot squat without a barbell. I need to hold some weight in my hands and put my arms as far forward as possible, and/or spread my legs way out (well into the discomfort zone) in a ridiculous sumo stance. (Or I just go up on the balls of my feet, but my knees don't like that.)
The difference is only visible at "beginner" weights, see pics below. I agree there would be no visible difference between 250 and 350. Note that it was in a specific context: I was talking to someone who said they were just starting with squats, so I assumed they would be starting with something small like 45 lbs the way people typically do. I can't be the only human being who needs to compensate for a less than usual set of proportions. If I had really believed that I was going to injure myself squatting any way other than precisely what is described in some of these stricter definitions, I never would have progressed to weights where I can squat with reasonable form.The weight on the bar (or lack there of) shouldn't significantly change your form.
Yes, I adjusted my knee position long ago, they are as far forward as they can go without pain. (If I put them more forward it painfully stresses the crap out of the patellar tendon.) I've tried many many variations/adjustments to find what does and doesn't work for me.In the picture of you squatting, the bar should be farther back and your torso more upright. Move your knees slightly forward to bring your butt in and keep your balance. I'm not saying it has to be directly over the center of your foot, but it should be a LOT closer than what it is. When the bar is farther forward than your knees, as in the picture, you're putting way to much stress on your back. And by way to much stress, I mean you WILL eventually hurt yourself this way.
70 lbs
210 lbs
Comparison:
Yep, I understand, but much of it ignores the bigger picture and is just mindlessly spouting absolutist dogma with zero regard for subtlety or context.And I (and a lot of people that have posted on the derailed part of the topic) realize this isn't the original question, just bear in mind that we're actually trying to help. Some in nicer ways than others.
Thanks Sara. I posted a form check (using more reasonable weights, IIRC 1XBW) in ETP a while back and nobody said anything bad about my form then. People are just extrapolating this 70 lb example to much higher weights.Just to add to the above, it looks as though you are doing an exaggerated low bar but with a high-bar bar position. See here:0 -
I am kind of mesmerized by that gif. The overlay one was fancy dancy as well.0
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I'm half expecting a set of, "you're squatting outside the rack, you must do that every time, and it's going to bring about the end of the universe" posts.I am kind of mesmerized by that gif. The overlay one was fancy dancy as well.0 -
30-60 seconds, no wait is called superset0
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This is awesome.
From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.
It also looks like you squat with no shoes on. That's how I do it as well. I don't have lifting shoes and my running shoes tilt me forward and make it difficult to keep my balance with the bar over my feet.
Great post.
Tom0
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