How long between reps before it's not a "set" anymore?
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Thanks. You can see what I mean though, whether I'd be moving the bar or my knees, my form would still be changing between different weights.From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.
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Thanks. You can see what I mean though, whether I'd be moving the bar or my knees, my form would still be changing between different weights.From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.
it shouldn't be. do a bodyweight squat where center of gravity is always above the middle of your feet and the path the bar would be on is a direct vertical drop in the center of gravity
when you get that bodyweight squat form correct you can use that form forever with however much weight you put on the bar. the center of gravity will never change no matter how much weight you put on the bar as long as your form complies. it will always go down in a direct vertical path towards your feet
using different form than that can end up hurting you, and we sincerely don't want that0 -
Wow, you really really don't get it. My center of mass is located far enough toward my butt that when I bend my knees to squat, my butt and my center of mass (by virtue of the way human knees bend and the fact that my body is not in noclip mode) move backwards. What keeps me from tipping over backwards if my center of mass is behind my centerline? Again, this is basic physics and leverage. Try sticking 200 lbs of weights to your butt and then squatting without tipping over backwards. (Yes that is an exaggeration, but it's the concept that is being illustrated.)
Thanks. You can see what I mean though, whether I'd be moving the bar or my knees, my form would still be changing between different weights.From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.
it shouldn't be. do a bodyweight squat where center of gravity is always above the middle of your feet and the path the bar would be on is a direct vertical drop in the center of gravity
when you get that bodyweight squat form correct you can use that form forever with however much weight you put on the bar. the center of gravity will never change no matter how much weight you put on the bar as long as your form complies. it will always go down in a direct vertical path towards your feet
using different form than that can end up hurting you, and we sincerely don't want that
You're basically telling me to keep my butt over my feet while squatting. I can do that only by going up in the balls of my feet.
To keep my center of mass over the middle of my feet in a body weight squat while keeping my feet flat on the floor, I would need to either:
- bend each of my knees a different direction,
- grow a new joint in the middle of my femurs,
- use the Schwartz,
- twist my legs 90 degrees in opposite directions, or
- change the location of my center of mass.
The first four are not viable options without surgery and I lost the ring of the Schwartz (don't ask, it was embarrassing) but what I can do is stick a barbell on the top half of my torso to act as a counterbalance. It works wonderfully. At four and a half months in I had already squatted 260 for 4 reps, which is well into the "intermediate" level, while the rest of my big lifts are still at novice and even untrained levels. (Just furthers my point that my lower body is much bigger than typical proportions.)
I have no use for doing unweighted squats or even barbell squats with 70 or even 140 lbs, so there is absolutely no point in me trying to find a solution to doing squats in these situations.
Again I mentioned it because if other people have the same situation they might stop trying to progress because they think their form needs to be fixed first, when in fact progressing to heavier weights is the fix. Especially if every single person they ask just mindlessly regurgitates the same ridiculous stuff that you and others have been trying to tell me.0 -
everyone's (speaking in terms of men since women's center of mass is lower) center of mass is just below their belly button to their hips - you aren't special
you should see a (qualified) personal trainer who can show you and help with your form because you seem unable to grasp the concept of changing your body movements so that you can do them correctly. also you should stick to only bodyweight squats until you are capable of handling the movements correctly.
sadly you seem too proud to do even that, as you refuse to admit that there is any chance that your form is bad. in that case just try not to hurt yourself
(look at this objectively - it's you against the world, and the world knows more about squat mechanics than you do)0 -
You're ignoring the rest of human variation such as bone length and joint ranges. You're taking an idealization of a generalization, and generalizing that, and assuming it trumps observed reality, as well as assuming that everyone agrees with you. That's the second most ridiculous thing you've said in this thread, the first being your suggestion that a stay-at-home parent should have lots of free time.
Maybe if you keep arguing it will keep this from having happened. Good luck.
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Rest as long as you need to. Don't turn your weight lifting session into cardio.0
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I know this will be a matter of opinion for everyone, but I'm just curious where people draw a line, if any, for how long you would pause between reps before you consider stopping a set or consider it not "a set" anymore?
I would not wait over 1 minute between sets. But, when I do some best surfing exercises, I take 2 minutes rest because surfing incorporates a lot of twisting and rotating of your body.0 -
he is wrong, and you should not be thanking him.
Thanks. You can see what I mean though, whether I'd be moving the bar or my knees, my form would still be changing between different weights.From the images, your form at 210 lbs looks spot on. What I always look for is the position of the bar relative to your feet. If the bar is over the center of your feet, then it's in the right place, regardless of torso mechanics or knee position. For the lighter weights, you could let your knees go out in front of your feet farther to keep the bar over the center of your feet.
your problem at 210 is the same at 70.
Were you taught to keep knees behind toes at all? Because this is exactly how you're squatting. Your hips are WAY to far back, and knees not far enough forward. You're bending over far too much. Thats why the load goes so far forward at 70lbs. It's trying to counterbalance how craptacularly out of position your hips are.
In any proper high bar squat, your back and shins will be parallel throughout the lift. In your case, your shins are far more vertical compared to the back.
You have exponentially greater hip sheer force and lower back strain squatting like this. I would recommend you seek advice from a profession immediately before you tear something if you actually try and put some real weight on the bar.0 -
You're ignoring the rest of human variation such as bone length and joint ranges. You're taking an idealization of a generalization, and generalizing that, and assuming it trumps observed reality, as well as assuming that everyone agrees with you. That's the second most ridiculous thing you've said in this thread, the first being your suggestion that a stay-at-home parent should have lots of free time.
Maybe if you keep arguing it will keep this from having happened. Good luck.
bone and joint ranges don't matter nearly as much as you think they do. you have bad form and according to you earlier, bad flexibility in your ankles preventing you from doing the form correctly.
you are leaning forward too far in your squats - pony up a few bucks and pay for a few months of training sessions with a good PT. you will save yourself money and time from injuries down the road as well as getting improved strength and mass gains from better form
edit - i understand that as a SAH dad you may not have spare funds to do this, so try putting the bar on your deltoids (vs traps where it seems you have them now,) spreading your feet farther apart a few inches and focus on spreading the knees out as you go down - this will help make up for your ankle inflexibility by bringing your butt forward a little and allowing you to be more upright in your torso. post us another gif like that and we'll see if it is better
basically it seems as if you are trying to do a bastardized mix of low bar and high bar squat form while holding it in the high bar position. this video should explain pretty well for you if you learn better by seeing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRMiUtscrHw 0 -
Some people can not be convinced. No matter how many times they are told, by how my people, they will always have done more research, or are special, so the rules don't apply to them in some way.
It's just too bad that in this case the natural consequences of plugging your ears and singing lalallaalaa could be emergency back surgery.0 -
This is exactly what happens on all internet forums regardless of topic. If there were a dictionary of internet stereotypes, this would be one of the first entries. Every hobby and pursuit has its own 'rules of thumb' which some people in their zeal try to apply with an absolutist mentality, and they proceed to patrol the forums looking for opportunities to spout their dogma and browbeat anyone who doesn't submit. It doesn't matter if it's fitness, or aquariums, or guns, or laser pointers, or gardening, or sailing, or anything else, it's always the same. Sorry to disappoint you but while repetition produces the illusion of truth, it doesn't make it true.0
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every elite trainer on earth disagrees with you and think you're just straight up doing it wrong. in the end, just another guy with terrible form and destined for injuries.0
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This is exactly what happens on all internet forums regardless of topic. If there were a dictionary of internet stereotypes, this would be one of the first entries. Every hobby and pursuit has its own 'rules of thumb' which some people in their zeal try to apply with an absolutist mentality, and they proceed to patrol the forums looking for opportunities to spout their dogma and browbeat anyone who doesn't submit. It doesn't matter if it's fitness, or aquariums, or guns, or laser pointers, or gardening, or sailing, or anything else, it's always the same. Sorry to disappoint you but while repetition produces the illusion of truth, it doesn't make it true.
i am sorry to hear that you're probably going to be using a walker about 35 years early
at least don't try to teach your kids how to lift. or, for that matter, how to be people at all; you sadly are too proud to even admit that you might be wrong (which you are) and see a trainer to make sure that you are still able to walk down the aisle unassisted if/when your children get married0 -
I didn't read all the way through so maybe this already came up, but have you ever thought about working on your cardio? It sounds like that is your issue if I'm reading this right. You have weak lungs compared to the strength in your legs, right? I'm sure I won't be taken seriously here, because I am a runner and I have just started my attempt at lifting "heavy", but it may be worth throwing some cardio in if it will help your lifting in the long run.
**by "heavy" I mean the "gym" where I work has no barbell so I am currently "lifting" 20 lb dumbells for my chest press and 15lb dumbells for my shoulder press. Laugh if you must, we all start somewhere
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Yep, I swim, dive, bike, kayak, and quite a bit of other general activity. (I only started lifting in December.) I ran cross-country in my mid-teens, and also ran regularly during USAF basic training, and then in my late 20's, and it was always torturous, except those rare moments of runner's high.I didn't read all the way through so maybe this already came up, but have you ever thought about working on your cardio? It sounds like that is your issue if I'm reading this right. You have weak lungs compared to the strength in your legs, right? I'm sure I won't be taken seriously here, because I am a runner and I have just started my attempt at lifting "heavy", but it may be worth throwing some cardio in if it will help your lifting in the long run.
**by "heavy" I mean the "gym" where I work has no barbell so I am currently "lifting" 20 lb dumbells for my chest press and 15lb dumbells for my shoulder press. Laugh if you must, we all start somewhere I do pretty well with the biking, which is basically low-impact running for me... great cardio without the shin splints and blisters. :happy:
Good luck with your lifting, and be careful: it can be as addictive as running! 0 -
Well...I got nothing then Good luck to you! and I really hope that you are wrong about lifting. I don't have enough extra time to be addicted to another thing...lol! 0
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Let's see:
- Apply absolutist mentality to general rule(s) of thumb with no regard for context. Check!
- Claim you are only looking out for someone's best interest. Check!
- Doomsaying. Check!
- Claim to be speaking on behalf of the world's foremost expert(s). Check!
Yep you hit all the requirements. And for bonus points:
- Advice is unsolicited.
- Advice is off-topic.
- Advice and doomsaying are still repeated over and over long after it is clearly unwelcome, "because we care."
- Attempted browbeating.
- Ad-hominem attacks.
- Threatening to stalk someone.
You're doing great! Are you classically trained?0 -
those aren't rules of thumb, they are physics and lifting mechanics that you are saying you're the exception toLet's see:
- Apply absolutist mentality to general rule(s) of thumb with no regard for context. Check!
-if we weren't looking out for your best interest, we'dd not have told you that your form is bad - instead letting you figure it out yourself after ruining your back or dropping all of that weight on yourself- Claim you are only looking out for someone's best interest. Check!
- Doomsaying. Check!
- Claim to be speaking on behalf of the world's foremost expert(s). Check!
also, who's threatening to stalk you? i missed that one. or are you just grasping for straws? maybe conceited a little? whole world's about you?- Advice is unsolicited.
- Advice is off-topic.
- Advice and doomsaying are still repeated over and over long after it is clearly unwelcome, "because we care."
- Attempted browbeating.
- Ad-hominem attacks.
- Threatening to stalk someone.
You're doing great! Are you classically trained?
you're taking all of this bad form stuff really personally. stop being offended and just try to think about it objectively. if you don't believe me, go post a form check request to /r/weightlifting on reddit - there are many world class lifters there and get visits from people such as arnold and more. they do form checks all the time and bad advice gets downvoted to hell, so you will quickly see what you should do
what's it going to hurt, other than your pride?0 -
When dogs are shown for conformation, they trot them around the ring. Anyone who has seen even a quick clip of a dog show has probably seen this. They aren't just trying to prance around to look cutesy, they are displaying the dog's form, which is a direct reflection of the quality of its muscles, joints, and bones... its build. Having shown a little I can see good vs bad by just seeing a dog trot. My wife can tell you which specific body parts are out of whack in which ways and the particular types of injuries or degenerative diseases that will result years later.
She can do this because a dog's form while trotting has been meticulously calculated by its motor neurons to be the most efficient use of the body it's connected to, and conformation judges use this to judge dogs because it's impossible to fake. You can't train a dog with bad conformation to run with champion form. The only way to get a dog to run like a champion is to choose its parents, and then cherry-pick from the litter because even then some of them will be less than good.
If you want to squat ridiculous amounts of weight, the most important part of that is choosing your parents. What do all elite squatters have in common? Great conformation. Having lots of strength without good conformation only allows one's muscles to destroy their joints. If your body is not built such that forces are properly distributed in proportion with the joints and bones they are being placed on, then you are never ever going to be an elite squatter no matter how much you train or how much you adjust your form. You can go on all day about the virtues of perfect form but it's not a valid comparison because the entire population of elite squatters has been cherry-picked for bodies that actually benefit from that form. If someone's body does not benefit from squatting with that form then it's already a given that they will never ever become an elite squatter.
If your build is less than ideal, then using idealized form without compensating for your quirks will fail much earlier because it does not properly distribute the loads on your various body parts. Trying blindly to squat with 'perfect' form with this train wreck of a skeleton is a recipe for disaster and I'm not stupid enough to do it.
Maybe I'm 'special' in that I have a tactile sense, or maybe it's just that mine is well developed because I spent most of my life beating the crap out of this body instead of sitting on a couch. But whatever the cause, I can feel the various loads and stresses on my ankles, knees, hips, and back and I can tell when they are getting higher or lower and dangerously high. Unless video technology has advanced to the point of sending real-time tactile data then there's no way that someone watching a video of me is going to know more than I can about the relative distribution of stress on my joints, especially in comparison to how much each of them can take. I can tell the difference when I change any aspect of my foot position, foot angle, knee width, hip angle, etc. That's how to adjust your positioning to optimize the distribution of forces, assuming you have that tactile sense.
But apparently many people can't even tell when their back is bent or straight, so maybe this is why so many people need someone else to tell them how to move or when their knees are being abused. Hooray for them. Maybe they will be elite squatters too. I won't. It's not my goal and I don't give a crap what someone does to squat 1000 pounds.0 -
didn't read your wall of text. here are four things you should think about
1. you are doing it wrong and refuse to admit that it is wrong because you think you're different
2. with the form you're using (with bar in front of your feet while you go down) you are putting excess strain on your back by having the bar farther up the lever arm than it is supposed to be
3. with the form you are using the weight is on your toes - regardless of whether your heels are on the ground, your center of gravity is in front of your toes, and you will never be able to drive up from your heels with this
4. with the form you are using the center of gravity is in front of your toes - as such when you get to a certain amount you literally will fall onto your face with the bar landing on top of you
whether you ever make it to 4 doesn't matter because you are doing the lift in a far less efficient manner (and far more dangerous) than the way that it is designed to be performed
put the bar in the correct position for a low bar squat and spread your feet out a little wider. you will find that you can lower the bar directly vertical to your feet without much problem as long as your ankles are able to handle your knee moving forward a little bit. no amount of hand wringing or complaining about your super special unicorn rare femur length is going to change this.
and i'm going to reiterate - if you don't believe us (and every professional who trains the squat) you should go post a form check on /r/weightlifting.
again, what's it going to hurt to just go have them watch a video of you, other than your pride? all i see is a sad old man who's too used to winning arguments with toddlers to admit that he doesn't know what's best - and might hurt himself in the process0 -
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Please stop bumping this.0
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Why?0
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a few seconds at best. If I have to pause that long then I just rack the weight and end the set. No point in pausing for so long.0
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Here's the type of set I was talking about, for those confused about why you can't just 'breathe normally throughout the whole set.'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSPE3wlv_Es
(This was 225 X 15 @ 182 lbs.)0 -
pro tip: keep a pail next to the rack so you can throw up into it.
not even kidding0 -
pro tip: keep a pail next to the rack so you can throw up into it.
not even kidding
I just let my dog in the gym with me. no pail needed.0 -
Also, keep a food scale and tare the bucket so you can log your puke and eat back the calories. :bigsmile:pro tip: keep a pail next to the rack so you can throw up into it.
not even kidding0
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