A Question About Sugar
Replies
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tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
Carbs are rarely, if ever stored as fat. DNL? The dietary fat you eat is the easiest to store
What do you mean by DNL? Are you saying CICO doesn't work?![:\](https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
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tigersword wrote: »We aren't talking about acute changes. We are talking about overall net changes in fat storage.
Over what time period ?
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tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
Carbs are rarely, if ever stored as fat. DNL? The dietary fat you eat is the easiest to store
What do you mean by DNL? Are you saying CICO doesn't work?
You don't know what DNL is?0 -
What do you mean by DNL?
De Novo Lipogensis - making of new fat from carbohydrates. Only tends to happen in prolonged overfeeding where the carb intake exceeds total energy demands.
Generally speaking the effect of eating carbs is to switch fuel use towards carbs (to get rid of glucose from the bloodstream) which leaves the fat being stored instead of used as fuel. So the net effect is carb intake reduces fat oxidation / increases fat storage without requiring actual conversion of carbs to fats.
Eating fat has no such effect on the fuel split.0 -
and someone said "it really is not all that complicated"
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tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
I don't think you understand what the term "net" means. Also, sugar is burned instantly for energy, then leftovers are used to refill glycogen stores, then if any are left over at that point, it's converted to glycerol. However, as we've established, 730 grams of glucose are required for brain use and glycogen storage (not counting the glucose used by the rest of the body, of which there are various organs that are glucose exclusive for energy.) The average American eats around 200-300 grams of carbs per day. So even if glycogen is only half depleted during the day, it's not being refilled. So there isn't any left over glucose to be converted to glycerol, because it's all used up before it gets to that step. Dietary fat, on the other hand, gets shuttled right to adipose tissue for storage after being eaten, then the endocrine system pulls what it needs from adipose storage.0 -
Oh boy! I'm a bit of a fruit addict. I stay under my tdee most days, but always go over in sugar, mostly because of all the fruit I eat. Should I cut down on fruit or not?? I'm losing weight just fine.0
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christinev297 wrote: »Oh boy! I'm a bit of a fruit addict. I stay under my tdee most days, but always go over in sugar, mostly because of all the fruit I eat. Should I cut down on fruit or not?? I'm losing weight just fine.
Provided that you have no health issues where sugar could be a problem, and you eat enough protein and fat, no need to worry about your fruit. If you love it, enjoy!
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tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
I don't think you understand what the term "net" means. Also, sugar is burned instantly for energy, then leftovers are used to refill glycogen stores, then if any are left over at that point, it's converted to glycerol. However, as we've established, 730 grams of glucose are required for brain use and glycogen storage (not counting the glucose used by the rest of the body, of which there are various organs that are glucose exclusive for energy.) The average American eats around 200-300 grams of carbs per day. So even if glycogen is only half depleted during the day, it's not being refilled. So there isn't any left over glucose to be converted to glycerol, because it's all used up before it gets to that step. Dietary fat, on the other hand, gets shuttled right to adipose tissue for storage after being eaten, then the endocrine system pulls what it needs from adipose storage.
http://www.jlr.org/content/11/2/131.full.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogenesis
Excess glucose is turned into fat
You would only need to replenish a full 730 g of glucose if you use it. If the muscles and liver are already full of glucose, they would not take any more in. Typically, up to 60% of calories burned at rest, 30% of calories burned at light activity, and 60% calories at intense activity are fat. So, in an oversimplified example, a person at 2400 tdee who is not active burns 240 g (960 calories) glucose a day. Should they eat 300 g carbs (ignoring fiber to make this simpler), they would store 240 calories, or 27 grams of fat. This fat may be burned because total energy in is less then energy out, or it may be retained (net fat gain). Excess glucose must be stored, or it causes the kind of damage seen in diabetics. Excess carbohydrate is turned into fat all through the day in the body. 0 -
What do you mean by DNL?
De Novo Lipogensis - making of new fat from carbohydrates. Only tends to happen in prolonged overfeeding where the carb intake exceeds total energy demands.
Generally speaking the effect of eating carbs is to switch fuel use towards carbs (to get rid of glucose from the bloodstream) which leaves the fat being stored instead of used as fuel. So the net effect is carb intake reduces fat oxidation / increases fat storage without requiring actual conversion of carbs to fats.
Eating fat has no such effect on the fuel split.
Thanks for the clarification, and confirmation that DNL - carbs turning into fat, mostly in the liver and fat tissue - occurs when someone takes in more calories than they use. It occurs all the time, but operates at lower level during starvation, carb restriction, and carb overfeeding to up to 50% of calories. 0 -
The first link is a rat study. Rats and humans don't process fat and carbs in the same way at all, so it doesn't do anything to support what you're saying. De novo lipogenesis is very common in rats. It's rather rare in humans.tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
I don't think you understand what the term "net" means. Also, sugar is burned instantly for energy, then leftovers are used to refill glycogen stores, then if any are left over at that point, it's converted to glycerol. However, as we've established, 730 grams of glucose are required for brain use and glycogen storage (not counting the glucose used by the rest of the body, of which there are various organs that are glucose exclusive for energy.) The average American eats around 200-300 grams of carbs per day. So even if glycogen is only half depleted during the day, it's not being refilled. So there isn't any left over glucose to be converted to glycerol, because it's all used up before it gets to that step. Dietary fat, on the other hand, gets shuttled right to adipose tissue for storage after being eaten, then the endocrine system pulls what it needs from adipose storage.
http://www.jlr.org/content/11/2/131.full.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogenesis
Excess glucose is turned into fat
You would only need to replenish a full 730 g of glucose if you use it. If the muscles and liver are already full of glucose, they would not take any more in. Typically, up to 60% of calories burned at rest, 30% of calories burned at light activity, and 60% calories at intense activity are fat. So, in an oversimplified example, a person at 2400 tdee who is not active burns 240 g (960 calories) glucose a day. Should they eat 300 g carbs (ignoring fiber to make this simpler), they would store 240 calories, or 27 grams of fat. This fat may be burned because total energy in is less then energy out, or it may be retained (net fat gain). Excess glucose must be stored, or it causes the kind of damage seen in diabetics. Excess carbohydrate is turned into fat all through the day in the body.
Also, high intensity activity burns far more CHO than fat, it's what glycogen is for, so i have no idea where you got your numbers from, because they aren't correct. It's also pretty easy to twist numbers around to make a point when you just randomly make them up. Fat and glucose metabolism are a 24/7 constant, you're burning glucose for fuel every second of every day. Plus you're ignoring the very basic fact that glycogen storage can increase as necessary. Your attempt to "oversimplify" your example completely invalidates it.
Has it occurred to you that when several people with science and research based backgrounds all tell you that carbs are very rarely stored as fat, that maybe your assumption is incorrect?0 -
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While it is better done than your beloved breitbart, it's woo woo bunk with zero educational, reasonable, rational, or scientific value.GaleHawkins wrote: »Fed Up is a well done piece created over like three years.
Sorry homes.
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aintgotnoskinny wrote: »Heh, my sugar count also is not what is 'recommended' but it is all natural sugars because I eat a lot of fruit so I guess its just fine as long as its not added sugar. (:
Don't we all wish that was the case.
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tigersword wrote: »
The first link is a rat study. Rats and humans don't process fat and carbs in the same way at all, so it doesn't do anything to support what you're saying. De novo lipogenesis is very common in rats. It's rather rare in humans.tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
I don't think you understand what the term "net" means. Also, sugar is burned instantly for energy, then leftovers are used to refill glycogen stores, then if any are left over at that point, it's converted to glycerol. However, as we've established, 730 grams of glucose are required for brain use and glycogen storage (not counting the glucose used by the rest of the body, of which there are various organs that are glucose exclusive for energy.) The average American eats around 200-300 grams of carbs per day. So even if glycogen is only half depleted during the day, it's not being refilled. So there isn't any left over glucose to be converted to glycerol, because it's all used up before it gets to that step. Dietary fat, on the other hand, gets shuttled right to adipose tissue for storage after being eaten, then the endocrine system pulls what it needs from adipose storage.
http://www.jlr.org/content/11/2/131.full.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogenesis
Excess glucose is turned into fat
You would only need to replenish a full 730 g of glucose if you use it. If the muscles and liver are already full of glucose, they would not take any more in. Typically, up to 60% of calories burned at rest, 30% of calories burned at light activity, and 60% calories at intense activity are fat. So, in an oversimplified example, a person at 2400 tdee who is not active burns 240 g (960 calories) glucose a day. Should they eat 300 g carbs (ignoring fiber to make this simpler), they would store 240 calories, or 27 grams of fat. This fat may be burned because total energy in is less then energy out, or it may be retained (net fat gain). Excess glucose must be stored, or it causes the kind of damage seen in diabetics. Excess carbohydrate is turned into fat all through the day in the body.
Also, high intensity activity burns far more CHO than fat, it's what glycogen is for, so i have no idea where you got your numbers from, because they aren't correct. It's also pretty easy to twist numbers around to make a point when you just randomly make them up. Fat and glucose metabolism are a 24/7 constant, you're burning glucose for fuel every second of every day. Plus you're ignoring the very basic fact that glycogen storage can increase as necessary. Your attempt to "oversimplify" your example completely invalidates it.
Has it occurred to you that when several people with science and research based backgrounds all tell you that carbs are very rarely stored as fat, that maybe your assumption is incorrect?
http://www.e-spenjournal.org/article/S1751-4991(11)00006-0/fulltext
Information on % of calories from fat at different levels of activity.
"The average resting RQ of 0.82 thus reflects that the human body derives more than half of its energy from fatty acids and most of the rest from glucose (Table 1)
" While proteins and CHOs elicit strong auto-regulatory adjustments in their oxidation in response to changes in intake, fat is at the bottom of an oxidative hierarchy that determines fuel selection.47 This response is governed by a relatively small storage capacity of protein and CHO, a need to maintain glucose homeostasis within tight limits, and infinite body capacity for fat storage.47"
Sorry, typo. Low intensity exercise burns most of the calories from fat. Medium intensity exercise is about 50-50, and high intensity exercise burns just over 2/3 of calories from carbohydrate, but longer duration exercise tends to burn a higher percentage of fat once carbohydrate stores are exhausted.
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37385
Fat storage increased in response to fructose. DNL in humans.
Glycogen storage increases results from things like carb-loading in elite athelets, a rare situation. Any info you have on how much storage can be increased would be appreciated.
My example was based on the assumption that the calories were ingested, digested, and stored/used over a 24 hour period.
If you don't like my numbers, please post the links to your studies.
I'm not aware of the science and research background of any posters. I simply have healthy scepticism when presented with information that is inconsistent with what is commonly known to be true. 0 -
Sugar is an important factor if it comes on your weight gain. Try to cut sugar from your diet and avoid as much as you can. You should also maintain calorie intake in your body. Because calory is calory doesn't matter from where it comes from.0
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Patttience wrote: »What we all need to do is know our carb count. You should aim to keep your carb count low.
There's almost nothing that WE ALL need to do. Drinking water and breathing air are a couple of those things.
I can't do low carb because it absolutely destroys my athletic performance. I need my fuel.
There is also evidence that individuals with serotonin deficiencies shouldn't do low carb, since carbs help boost serotonin levels in the brain. Low carb could wreak havoc on your mood if you have this issue. It's also a reason why some depressed people often overeat carbs to help themselves feel better. I can only imagine that a drastic restriction in carbs would lead to carb binges for those people. Perhaps that's why people on super-restrictive diets frequently fail?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8697046 (for the cite your sources people)0 -
tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »tigersword wrote: »From a nutrition aspect, I try to limit my intake of added sugars from processed foods and such. I don't count sugars from fruits and other natural sources. I watched a really interesting documentary yeaterday though called Fed Up. According to that, sugar calories (all sugars, natural or processed) aren't treated by your body the same way and are more readily stored as fat instead of used as energy. It is worth watching if you would like to learn more about sugar in your diet.
No. The sugars are treated exactly the same way, as they are the exact same molecules. The human digestive system doesn't recognize "Apple" or "Twinkie." It recognizes glucose and fructose and digests them accordingly.
Also, unless you're eating kilograms of sugar, it won't be stored as fat. Sugar is almost never stored as fat, as the body readily uses it as its main energy source. It won't remain in the body long enough to be converted to fat, unless, like I said, you're eating about a 1000 grams in a sitting. That would be the equivalent of 25 cans of Coke in one sitting, for perspective.
The body is actually quite good at storing glucose as fat, except in diabetics. Carbohydrates are turned into glucose by the body, quickly for simple sugars, more slowly for complex carbohydrates and sugars that are eaten with fiber, fat, or protein. Sustained high levels of glucose in the blood causes damage to nerves and the vascular system, leading to blindness and necrosis. Fortunately the body uses insulin to prevent glucose from causing damage. Insulin causes the liver and muscles to take up glucose and store it. You can store about 100g of glucose in the liver and 500g glucose (in the form of glycogen) in the muscles. Once your immediate need for glucose is met (i.e. your brain will use 120g/day), and the storage room inside your muscles and liver is full, insulin causes any excess glucose to be stored in fat cells. You do not need to eat kilos of sugar in one sitting to gain fat from it. Even if you come to a meal competely starved, with your muscles and liver absolutely empty of glycogen, you will have excess glucose after 600 grams. And, of course, your body would never let you have absolutely no glucose, as it is necessary for your brain to keep running. When the body is starved of carbohydrate, it begins to make protein into glucose, breaking down muscle if it has no other source. Fat can also be made into glucose, but it is a slow process. The body can make fat out of any excess calories that it can digest (i.e. fat, protein, and carbohydrates, excluding insoluable fiber).
It really isn't that good. While I admit I may have exaggerated the number slightly, let's go ahead and use 600 grams of storage, plus the 130 grams the brain uses. That's still 730 grams. That's still almost 3000 calories worth of sugar before it gets converted to fat.
Over 85% of the fat in adipose tissue is made of fatty acids. Sugar is very rarely stored, because it's used immediately.
Yes, the sugar is turned by the liver into fatty acids by the body so it can be stored in fat cells. And, as you acknowledged above, that happens continuously over the day. Sugar, in some ways, is more likely to be stored as fat, as it has no other use in the body other than stored and used energy. Fat and protein both are used to make hormones, in the nervous system, to repair and build body tissues, in the skin, etc. (have a use beyond their caloric content).
There is only a net gain of fat when the body is given more calories than daily energy expenditure, however, as we live in a society with over 50% of people being overweight or obese, this is not a rare event. Having one`s liver and muscles completely empty at the beginning of a meal is extremely rare, however, unless carbs are restricted. Keep in mind the 130 g of carbs the brain uses is over the course of a day. For the 1/2 hour of a meal, only 5-6g carbs would be needed.
This is how carbs become net fat. If someone had their body full of stored carbs at breakfast, then ate a 500 calorie lunch, with a tdee of 2400 calories, they would have the room to store 400 calories (100 calories burned/hour at normal activity at this TDEE). So, assuming they ate 58% carbs (72g), 30% fat (17g) and 22% protein (15g - numbers slightly off due to rounding), the person would be gaining net fat in from the carbohydrate and some of the fat, with the remaing fat and all protein going to create and maintain body systems (non-energy requirements). Some of the carbs would be sugar, so sugar made fat in this example, perhaps as little as the 10 grams in a glass of juice. Sugar is turned into net fat regularly.
I don't think you understand what the term "net" means. Also, sugar is burned instantly for energy, then leftovers are used to refill glycogen stores, then if any are left over at that point, it's converted to glycerol. However, as we've established, 730 grams of glucose are required for brain use and glycogen storage (not counting the glucose used by the rest of the body, of which there are various organs that are glucose exclusive for energy.) The average American eats around 200-300 grams of carbs per day. So even if glycogen is only half depleted during the day, it's not being refilled. So there isn't any left over glucose to be converted to glycerol, because it's all used up before it gets to that step. Dietary fat, on the other hand, gets shuttled right to adipose tissue for storage after being eaten, then the endocrine system pulls what it needs from adipose storage.
http://www.jlr.org/content/11/2/131.full.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogenesis
Excess glucose is turned into fat
You would only need to replenish a full 730 g of glucose if you use it. If the muscles and liver are already full of glucose, they would not take any more in. Typically, up to 60% of calories burned at rest, 30% of calories burned at light activity, and 60% calories at intense activity are fat. So, in an oversimplified example, a person at 2400 tdee who is not active burns 240 g (960 calories) glucose a day. Should they eat 300 g carbs (ignoring fiber to make this simpler), they would store 240 calories, or 27 grams of fat. This fat may be burned because total energy in is less then energy out, or it may be retained (net fat gain). Excess glucose must be stored, or it causes the kind of damage seen in diabetics. Excess carbohydrate is turned into fat all through the day in the body.
You are assuming that glycogen max every day then deplete. It doesn't work that way. For some reason you think people are walking around with max glycogen stores. You are trying to present your example with sedentary individuals. Why? You most most of us here do some kind of training. You do realize that the liver will deplete daily. You are also not taking into consideration TEF of carbs.
You said we would only need to replenish 730g, do you realize how much that actually is? Then you said the sedentary individual is eating 300g of carbs per day, really? How many sedentary people around here do you know that are eating 300g of carbs per day? Then you say ignore fiber, how convenient. Lastly you say excess carb may be burned because energy in is less than energy out but at the same time you say it might be stored. Really? So it might just do whatever it feels?
Nice attempt at creating a situation to back up your beliefs but it didn't work.
One more question, how many people do you know that are sesedentary maintaining on 2400 calories. Better yet, how many women do you know that maintain at 2400 calories and are sedentary?
First of all, I'm not implying that people in a caloric deficit are gaining fat %. My example is of a person eating in excess of their TDEE, above maintenence, or more calories than their body uses a day (not necessarily female). Fat gain would be rare in people eating at a deficit, but fat gain is not rare in the general population. My example is not a dieter, just the average Joe. I chose a person with 2400 TDEE because then I could say their average energy expenditure is 100 calories/hour (24 hours in a day). I was trying to keep the math simple. This is the same reason I didn't include any activity or fiber. Type and duration of activity affects % of fat burned vrs carb, making the equation unnecessarily complicated. I personally don't know any sedentary people on the boards.
The 300g carb I took from tigerswords response as being an average person's carb intake. I don't know anyone on the boards that are eating 300 g carbs a day specifically (many of them are dieting, most have closed their diaries), however, if the TDEE is lower, the amount of carbs to be over the amount needed by the body would also be lower. Yes, the liver empties every day, but that is only 100 g/carbs, and many people consume 100 g/carbs a day (this is less than the minimum recommendation).
I postulated that someone (non-dieter) after a filling breakfast would burn 400 calories before lunch (lunch being 3.5 hrs after breakfast and lasting .5hrs) with a TDEE of 2400 calories. After 500 calories ingested, the excess 100 calories would be stored as fat (calories in-calories out). I didn't say 730g of carbs, that was tigersword. 600g of carbs is between 1 and 2 pounds, less that the 2 + lbs claimed to be necessary to have DNL by tigersword. It is also 2920 calories. According to yarwell, carbohydrate intake needs to be more than TDEE for DNL, so a person with a TDEE of 2000 calories would need to consume 2001 calories of carbs, 500.25 g in one day, to create fat from carbs...
TEF - Thermal effect of food? That is already accounted for in TDEE.
Though you are absolutely right, results would vary by person, metabolism, and activity level. I'm not trying to make an example that applies precisely to every individual, just illustrate a point.
When I said that the excess carbs might be burned after they are stored as fat, I meant just that. I over-eat at breakfast, and store fat. Later in the afternoon I run a marathon (it could happen....
), and the fat I stored gets burned as well as the stored glycogen in my muscles. The glucose isn't doing whatever it feels, as it does in tigerswords example with the kilograms of sugar. Assuming a minimum of 2 kilograms, that is 2000g of sugar (8000 calories) swimming around someone's body with nowhere to go, unable to become fat, unlikely to be used for energy in one day, probably destroying the eater's vision, circulatory, and nervous system. I like my version better...
I'm sorry if I misunderstood any of your points. Your post was a little hard to follow. You may wish to engage a beta reader... 0 -
I can't believe I just went and checked how to spell calorie. Or was it celery. How do you spell celery? Am I right?
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Thanks for the clarification, and confirmation that DNL - carbs turning into fat, mostly in the liver and fat tissue - occurs when someone takes in more calories than they use.
just for clarification, it occurs mainly after a prolonged period of eating where the carbohydrate intake alone exceeds the calories expenditure, let's say eating 600g/day of carbs (2400 cals) while expending 2000 cals/day.
The early phases of overeating carbs loads up glycogen reserves to higher than normal levels first, then DNL later. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.long :-
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neanderthin wrote: »Except in a deficit, nothing including sugar gets stored as fat....eat too much then sugar along with the rest of what you eat will get stored as adipose tissue. Not sure what your point is here.
Fat gets stored and released all the time, after eating we store most of what we ate for later use otherwise we would be eating all the time (which some people do seem to do).
^^^^^This - weight loss is about burning more fat than you store!
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sugar has calories.
fit it into your deficit.
thumbs up.0 -
ScottDowell wrote: »Sugar is an important factor if it comes on your weight gain. Try to cut sugar from your diet and avoid as much as you can. You should also maintain calorie intake in your body. Because calory is calory doesn't matter from where it comes from.
???
0
This discussion has been closed.
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