1 gram of protein per lbs myth

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  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    Cortelli wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    This is from dietitian.com:

    "The RDA for protein for adult males is 63 grams per day. Athletes can maintain protein equilibrium (muscle building equals muscle breakdown) on 1 gram of protein per kilogram of body weight per day. So take your weight, divide by 2.2 then multiply by 1. In fact most persons can achieve protein equilibrium (positive nitrogen balance) at 0.6 to 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram per day.

    [. . .]

    (emphasis added)

    Just an aside, I love this sterling editing at dietitian.com, but I think the formula is incomplete. Should be: "So take your weight, divide by 2.2, then multiply by 1, then multiply by 1 again, then divide by 1, then add 0."

    When do I get my check from dietitian.com?

    Cheers!

    LOL, yeah but I decided not to editorialize that little part. I did get a chuckle out of it! :D
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Sarauk2sf wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Sarauk2sf wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Sarauk2sf wrote: »
    Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
    Sarauk2sf wrote: »
    Now, many of the newer studies include some 'better' data, due to the passage of time and therefore technology. For example, better BF% assessments - it does not negate the older ones, but mitigates limitations.

    It really depends. Newer could negate the older ones due to new information, better understanding of the topic. It could expand upon older research and provide new insight. Or it can provide something completely different that warrants further research. Think about stuff like DOM's. At one time the data said it was lactic acid build-up, now the data says it's micro-damage to the muscle tissue. There's probably little reason to look at the old data on that subject at this point. It really depends on what's being reviewed. I was surprised that such old information was used on the subject of protein when protein has been researched at nauseum over the last 10 years, there is so much current info out there.

    Did not say that they could not.

    Also, it may be been studied ad nauseum, but you need to ring fence to try to be applicable to the population you are looking at addressing. Can you point out studies that you think should have been included that were not?

    If I had time to research this topic on my own I definitely could, I actually had to do a fair amount of research on Protein a couple semesters ago.

    Why are we arguing about something stupid again?

    Did not realize we were arguing. To me, you seemed to have an objection to newer studies not being included (or older studies being included). I was wondering what ones you thought were missing, or which older ones may have newer ones calling them into question, as if you knew of any, I would like to look at them to the 'mix' of relevant studies.

    Like I said above, my objection to the older research is related to the standards I'm held to in my MS program, that's all. After a year of them being pounded into us with wonderful deductions to grades because of poor research choices I tend to follow them pretty strictly, perhaps a little looser outside of the confines of class but still pretty closely.

    I don't have time to really research the topic directly but here are some resources I had saved from previous classes. A couple of these might be applicable to this thread, but probably not too much. I don't recall exactly why I saved these, I think we were looking at Vegan athletes at the time. This isn't APA format, but who's grading? LOL

    Secondary Source Examples:

    MARK A. TARNOPOLSKY. Building muscle: nutrition to maximize bulk and strength adaptations to resistance exercise training. European Journal of Sport Science, March 2008; 8(2): 6776

    Joel Fuhrman and Deana M. Ferreri. Fueling the Vegetarian (Vegan) Athlete. Current Sports Medicine Reports

    John D Bosse1,2* and Brian M Dixon1. (2010). Dietary protein to maximize resistance training: a review and examination of protein spread and change theories. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2012, 9:42

    Matthew Stark1, Judith Lukaszuk1*, Aimee Prawitz1 and Amanda Salacinski2. (2012) Protein timing and its effects on muscular hypertrophy and strength in individuals engaged in weight-training. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2012, 9:54

    Eric R. Helms, Caryn Zinn, David S. Rowlands, and Scott R. Brown. (2014). A Systematic Review of Dietary Protein During Caloric Restriction in Resistance Trained Lean Athletes: A Case for Higher Intakes. Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, 2014, 24, 127 -138

    ELIZABETH CHERRY. (2006). Veganism as a Cultural Movement:A Relational Approach. Social Movement Studies. Vol. 5, No. 2, 155–170

    Not really related to protein but here are a couple primary source pieces that I had used for something related to carbs.

    Stuart D.R. Galloway, Matthew J.E. Lott, and Lindsay C. Toulouse. Preexercise Carbohydrate Feeding and High-Intensity Exercise Capacity: Effects of Timing of Intake and Carbohydrate Concentration. International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, 2014, 24, 258 -266

    Ste´phanie Vieillevoye • Jacques R. Poortmans, Jacques Duchateau • Alain Carpentier. (2010). Effects of a combined essential amino acids/carbohydrate supplementation on muscle mass, architecture and maximal strength following heavy-load training. Eur J Appl Physiol (2010) 110:479–488

    The above study from Galloway, Lott, and Toulouse is actually very interesting and actually applied it to my own training and found the results to carry over.



    ^^thanks.

    As I noted, the Helms one is not contradictory at the high level, will have a look at those others to see if covered by, or at least considered in, his analysis (his was pretty extensive). Just for my own nerd reasons I am wondering whether the Tarnopolsky one was not used as it was specifically looked at and excluded for a specific reason (as mentioned by SideSteel, there were a couple excluded - I cannot recall which ones though without looking into it further) - Menno used his other studies. I am actually interested in the vegan ones - just for nerd reasons, so thanks for those as I had not really looked into it and its an interesting topic to me. Thanks for the other links also.

    FWIW, I have a generalized concern with older studies - not that they are older, but tend, moreso than more recent studies (or at least that's my impression) to use nitrogen balance as a proxy for protein requirements, which tends to underestimate requirements.

    Hey no problem. Honestly I hate the whole topic of protein because there is just so much information out there and the results are so varied. I've read everything from 1.2gms / kg to 1.8gm's kg for athletes and as high as 2.3gm's / kg for strength athletes and horse jockeys. You want to talk about an area of research that suffers from research bias, the subject of protein seems to be ripe with it. I think when you look at the collective body of evidence I think a couple things are clear, anything above 2.3gm's / kg for non-precontest bodybuilders is definitely excessive, but athletes in particular can hit 1.6gm's / kg. There are studies that say athletes can do like 1.4 but I've read more that say 1.6 - 1.8, so that is what I would stick to in the case of athletes. Not that I'm 100% right and absolute, that's just what I see more frequently in work I've read for school so that is what I would stick with, other quantities would likely work fine as well.

    Aside from the actual research, it's interesting to listen to the actual researchers talk. Layne Norton has a podcast and has talked about this subject-matter. Since Dr. Norton did his PhD work on Protein, I would say his opinions have considerable merit. The ISSN has a podcast called "We Do Science! The Guru Performance Podcast" and you get all kind of researchers on from Alan Aragon, Brad Schoenfeld, etc.

    Thanks for the Podcast reference. I'm going to check that out!
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
    kgeyser wrote: »
    We're back.

    da10a526cc2ee1a2ebb9286033a2aa45.jpg

    I knew there was a conspiracy...
  • Kalikel
    Kalikel Posts: 9,603 Member
    MrM27 wrote: »
    Kalikel wrote: »
    I go with the .8g/lb rule...and I don't even get that much. If I'm in the 30s, it's a big day. I just don't like protein foods. Working on it.

    I think most bodybuilders like to go over whatever that highest number that has been proven to be of any use (1.2?) might be, but it's not a big deal. If they want to eat more protein, good for them.

    Wish I could absorb some of that love for protein. Totally jealous.

    Those 2 lines together make no sense at all. 30s is a big day bUT then you go .8 rule. So you're at least 100g short. OK I get it

    Also, don't make assumptions about bodybuilders. You have none clue of the mind frame.

    I have to break my streak of not replying to your posts because you were right. It doesn't make sense.

    I typed .8/lb instead of .8/kg. I'm not even sure why. I think I was reading about the pounds per X and must've had it in my brain, but honestly don't know why I typed pounds instead of kilos.

    .8g/kg of body weight. 169/2.2 (.8) = ~62

    I should get 62. 40 is an impressive day. I have to spend my whole day trying to take in extra just to get to 40 or 45 and never feel very well when I do, so I don't usually go that high. I still battle myself with the idea that maybe I'm a freak of nature and really don't need much protein. I don't know what it's going to take to get me on the protein train. I think I need my albumin to come in low or something. I should eat more of it. Working on it.

    So, do some name-calling. Revel in the fact that I was wrong and you were right. Have yourself a little "I was RIGHT!" party.

    If you want to dredge up arguing whether massive amounts of protein are required or whether an adequate amount of calories and protein will suffice, save your time. I'm not going over it again, haven't changed my mind and will stipulate that you don't agree, think nobody should pay me attention and that you think I'm an idiot.

    I have studied Muscle Dysmorphia, but haven't ever talked to anyone who had it about their feelings, etc. I have talked to people who enjoy their muscle building, but not a lot - not about their workouts, emotions, stuff like that. Not really. It's not like you can just pepper people with really personal questions, so I don't know who just likes to lift v. who has Muscle Dysmorphia anymore than I can tell who is underweight from who has anorexia without asking some questions.

    I don't suggest I know a lot about the group, either in general or the ones who have a problem. I do know that many of them like to take in more protein than anyone has suggested could be of any benefit, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

    They eat extra protein. I eat extra fruit. Can't really be too high up on a horse, even if wanted to, which I do not.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    I see crying. We don't need that.
  • Kalikel
    Kalikel Posts: 9,603 Member
    dbmata wrote: »
    I see crying. We don't need that.
    If you meant me, not hardly.
  • Cacheola
    Cacheola Posts: 50 Member
    I try and space major intake every 4 hours, casein before bed. Follow your nose... if you're clearing rooms or having fun in elevators, your either not blending your protein well enough or you're taking too much. That's my rule of bum. err, thumb.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    WalkingAlong wrote: »
    stevencloser wrote: »
    WalkingAlong wrote: »
    Well, yes. But they recommend that as a minimum because they see no need for much more. The end of that article puts it like this: "There’s no need to go overboard on protein. Though some studies show benefits of high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets in the short term, avoiding fruits and whole grains means missing out on healthful fiber, vitamins, minerals, and other phytonutrients."

    I'm not arguing against anyone's chosen level. I think there are all kinds of goals and schools of thought.

    That's not what minimum means at all and that's not what that quote implies either.
    How would you address the mainstream rec to eat a maximum of 35% protein?
    http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/protein


    I don't think you're really getting minimums and maximums. I eat (roughly) 1g per lb bodyweight (I'm aware I could achieve what I want on less, I just like my meat) that's 25% of my calories. If I was at deficit it'd be 30%.

    Well under the maximum and well over the minimum :/

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