The January Gym Crowd
Replies
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Hate hate hate it! Sorry...I'm a bad person.
I've been at the same gym (on and off) for 14 years. I'm in at 6am so every January this happens and I know it won't last long. Not as long as the PM crowd anyway. At our place you pay for the whole year.0 -
My gym is more crowded for sure and for the most part, I think it's great. I just hate the parking lot. And the long walk to the front door. In the cold. Especially when it's raining. Or snowing. Or icy. I'm such a whiny baby.0
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JeffseekingV wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »My understanding of the niche fitness business is that a key part of the business model is that it takes far fewer members to reach a break-even point if you have an attractive product. The initial capital investment is lower, overhead costs are lower, and members are willing to pay a higher price for the increased attention (which can also result in lower turnover rate). Starting a traditional club with a lot of equipment require a much larger volume of members. And unless you are a higher-end premium facility, you are usually competing on price with a bunch of other chains. It turns into a race to the bottom that needs a constant flow of new members to sustain.
A boutique club usually doesn't require anywhere near that much churn and burn.
I think the fact that the product might be "hot" right now drives the decision to open the business and increases the chances for success--as opposed to being a "price gouging" strategy to line the pockets of the owner.
Yep.
http://blog.kimcorealty.com/2012/10/the-economics-of-crossfit-paying-premium-prices-to-be-in-pain/
TL;DR - I'll just assume that Crossfit gyms are gouging members with incoherently high prices.
Yup. $100-$150 per month around here. And they have "classes" so you have to get to a class at a certain time if you want to compete with the others in the class. I might try one on a groupon for LOLs but other than that
whoops
Not sure what you are trying to debate. You were debating that crossfit isn't that expensive then you post an article about how overpriced crossfit gyms are. lol0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »jofjltncb6 wrote: »My understanding of the niche fitness business is that a key part of the business model is that it takes far fewer members to reach a break-even point if you have an attractive product. The initial capital investment is lower, overhead costs are lower, and members are willing to pay a higher price for the increased attention (which can also result in lower turnover rate). Starting a traditional club with a lot of equipment require a much larger volume of members. And unless you are a higher-end premium facility, you are usually competing on price with a bunch of other chains. It turns into a race to the bottom that needs a constant flow of new members to sustain.
A boutique club usually doesn't require anywhere near that much churn and burn.
I think the fact that the product might be "hot" right now drives the decision to open the business and increases the chances for success--as opposed to being a "price gouging" strategy to line the pockets of the owner.
Yep.
http://blog.kimcorealty.com/2012/10/the-economics-of-crossfit-paying-premium-prices-to-be-in-pain/
TL;DR - I'll just assume that Crossfit gyms are gouging members with incoherently high prices.
Yup. $100-$150 per month around here. And they have "classes" so you have to get to a class at a certain time if you want to compete with the others in the class. I might try one on a groupon for LOLs but other than that
whoops
Not sure what you are trying to debate. You were debating that crossfit isn't that expensive then you post an article about how overpriced crossfit gyms are. lol
whoops whoops
*pat pat*0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »
So then that's all pure profit.3dogsrunning wrote: »and how much are the co-marketing costs?
They aren't spending on equipment, or staffing. Again, we go back to higher costs due to cult status and marketing costs. This isn't magic. It's done every day.
Exposed franchise fees are a simple $3k yearly plus some derptificate, that's fine. What are the other costs? Considering my one experience with having bought into a food franchise, those costs are fairly extreme, and come with requirements to pay for marketing, regional fees, management fees, logistical fees, etc. etc. etc.
Again, cult + marketing of cool = excessive membership charge.and how much are the co-marketing costs?
They aren't spending on equipment, or staffing. Again, we go back to higher costs due to cult status and marketing costs. This isn't magic. It's done every day.
Exposed franchise fees are a simple $3k yearly plus some derptificate, that's fine. What are the other costs? Considering my one experience with having bought into a food franchise, those costs are fairly extreme, and come with requirements to pay for marketing, regional fees, management fees, logistical fees, etc. etc. etc.
Again, cult + marketing of cool = excessive membership charge.
Crossfit is an affiliate, not a franchise. The difference being that you do not have the same level of requirement that you see in franchising.
The crossfit boxes here do next to no marketing. One guy has his truck painted. They have signs on their building. That's about it.
No *kitten*.
I'm going to review this more in depth, $3k and a few fees to clean up? yeah bob.
Not so fast chief. Just because you waaaay estimated the franchise fees doesn't mean it's all profit. I think you're still failing to do a proper accounting of what it costs to run a gym and how many members you need to have to turn a profit.
But maybe next time a little research before accusing a company of soaking it's members just because.....made up reasons.
Cult costs are excessive, and why the average CF gym in my little slice of the outer rim is $150 a month for unlimited.
Back when I lived in Boston, one opened for the grand discount of $175 a month unlimited. At that price level, they're pricing out most folks, and ensuring that the in-house body count stays at a particular level, but it's pretty damn silly to think that they have to charge that much to run a gym.
They don't, it's the result of cult marketing pricing. It's even more obvious since the fees are so low, and apparently there aren't your average franchise co-marketing fees, management fees, etc. We're already seeing "knock offs" here, so it's only a matter of time before coherent pricing comes to the CF world.
wrong wrong wrong. like, record levels of wrongness in here. but i guess it's more fun to take jabs at CF than to try to write a functioning business plan?
1. $150 per month is cheap. dirt cheap
2. you're not worried about pricing out a bunch of people, only pricing in your target audience.
3. i charge $400 per month on average to run my gym and a couple of months back a client laughed in my face because she thought it was too cheap for what she was getting. she said she would have paid double.
4. not only am i not a cult, no one in my local area knows who i am.
5. you are comparing a boutique niche service to walmart pricing and you don't seem to realize it.
$150 is not dirt cheap for a Crossfit gym.
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I don't even know what we are trying to sort out any more.
PS- that movie's awesome.0 -
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Yes, I belong to a Gold's gym and every class is at capacity and all machines are filled afterwards. I just do my thing and know they will all fall off eventually
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JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
Are you having trouble reading the many posts running down the costs on the business model? Are you having difficulty understanding that what is expensive or logical to you doesn't apply to every individual across the board? Are you incapable of comprehending that if you're spreading rent, utility, and maintenance costs across a smaller pool of members that those members will have a higher membership cost? Are you unable to delineate between "cost" and "value"?0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
Are you having trouble reading the many posts running down the costs on the business model? Are you having difficulty understanding that what is expensive or logical to you doesn't apply to every individual across the board? Are you incapable of comprehending that if you're spreading rent, utility, and maintenance costs across a smaller pool of members that those members will have a higher membership cost? Are you unable to delineate between "cost" and "value"?
Are you understanding the words coming out of my mouth? And the article you just posted too.0 -
What part of the article spoke of price gouging members?0
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What are we even talking about anymore0
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haha. The article is trying to justify the costs by stating "it's like renting a personal trainer" and the big workout places rely on membership not showing up. I'd guess that all fitness places over book their membership because everyone knows the attendance rate is not 100%.
Like I said, it seems interesting but not $150/month interesting. Or better yet at $175 / month interesting like the article mentions.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
So you pay $100 a month to go to a gym and $150 is somehow a really big deal?
This is like ranting about name brand clothes or apple products. People pay it and like the stuff, who cares?0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
So you pay $100 a month to go to a gym and $150 is somehow a really big deal?
This is like ranting about name brand clothes or apple products. People pay it and like the stuff, who cares?
No. I'm paying $100 to go to a gym. Paying ANOTHER $150 for limited additional benefit = expensive.
What you are saying is like paying for a Honda civic and complaining about not wanting to pay for another Honda civic. I could actually afford another Honda Civic but it would be a complete waste of money to pay twice for the essentially the same thing.
That is why I said "it might be okay if I could go and do other stuff when I'm not doing WOD" Why? Because then I could justify quitting one gym and paying for the xfit gym. But I doubt it because my Y has bball courts, swim center, cardio machines etc... things that the typical xfit does not have.0 -
Well. So DYELB brings up an EXCELLENT point.
If you look at this as a hobby type thing- 150 a month is not expensive. Regular lessons hockey/karate/dance/music would run you 200+ a month. I know at my studio- unlimited runs around 290- which includes rehearsal fees
if you stop looking at it like a gym- and you look at it like regular dance classes- or regular hockey lessons- it becomes on point.
If you look at it as a gym- then oh hell no.0 -
It's all relative...my gym membership is relatively cheap at $35 for a 24/7 facility...but my coach whom I meet with for 60 minutes once per week runs me about $200 per month. In that light, CF is relatively cheap as you are getting unlimited access to the facility and coaching (albeit not as personal as having an individual coach).
As to the original question, there's been a slight uptick at my gym, but it's a local joint...most of the New Years folks are hitting the big box gyms around town.0 -
I still don't understand how someone can argue comparability of these two different gym business models when the users/members ratio are so different...and then argue that one pricing structure is somehow incoherent because compared to globogym...
...and then somehow this equates to a potential business opportunity...
...but I've already said this a couple of times in this very thread and feel like I'm engaged in postmortem pummeling of equus ferus caballus.
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JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
So you pay $100 a month to go to a gym and $150 is somehow a really big deal?
This is like ranting about name brand clothes or apple products. People pay it and like the stuff, who cares?
No. I'm paying $100 to go to a gym. Paying ANOTHER $150 for limited additional benefit = expensive.
What you are saying is like paying for a Honda civic and complaining about not wanting to pay for another Honda civic. I could actually afford another Honda Civic but it would be a complete waste of money to pay twice for the essentially the same thing.
That is why I said "it might be okay if I could go and do other stuff when I'm not doing WOD" Why? Because then I could justify quitting one gym and paying for the xfit gym. But I doubt it because my Y has bball courts, swim center, cardio machines etc... things that the typical xfit does not have.
Where are people telling people to pay ANOTHER $150? Why do you think every person in the world is paying for two memberships? And if they are, why is that a problem? I've paid for 3+ memberships for years0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »
What are you saying? That you can't afford it so obviously no one can?0 -
Well. So DYELB brings up an EXCELLENT point.
If you look at this as a hobby type thing- 150 a month is not expensive. Regular lessons hockey/karate/dance/music would run you 200+ a month. I know at my studio- unlimited runs around 290- which includes rehearsal fees
if you stop looking at it like a gym- and you look at it like regular dance classes- or regular hockey lessons- it becomes on point.
If you look at it as a gym- then oh hell no.
That's the entire point of what we've been saying. It doesn't even resemble a regular gym membership. A completely different experience0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »It's all relative...my gym membership is relatively cheap at $35 for a 24/7 facility...but my coach whom I meet with for 60 minutes once per week runs me about $200 per month. In that light, CF is relatively cheap as you are getting unlimited access to the facility and coaching (albeit not as personal as having an individual coach).
As to the original question, there's been a slight uptick at my gym, but it's a local joint...most of the New Years folks are hitting the big box gyms around town.
Actually, that's a great plan. Opt for a cheap gym and spend the rest on a xfit place. But I'm at the y because of the family plan and my daughter goes to Y programs like after school care. So ditching the Y really isn't a good alternative. But if I could, I'd totally do that.0 -
Remember that the people you are complaining about help subsidize your gym membership (by paying but not showing up as often or for as long as you). Be happy!0
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The 'noobies' have already given up at my pool. A few new faces the first Monday in January, but overall it's not been awful. Last year was much worse! The worst month for new people where I swim is September. Lots of parents decide they're going to get back to exercise while their kids are in school.0
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JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »
The contradiction that $150 is expensive for xfit membership?
I work in NYC and live upstate, so the numbers are definitely higher than average if you live in say Ohio, but it's not that far gone for say Boston or Cali.
I pay $135 a month for unlimite karate lessons.
I pay $72 a month for my gym near work, that's discounted down from the standard rate of I think $120 a month because of corporate whatever.
I pay $60 a month for my gym near home.
I have a strength coach that I go to to prep for powerlifting meets, he's about $2k for 30 sessions. A pack of sessions can last me about a year.
I play rugby as well, and dues for that are $400 per year.
That's $5604 annually or about $108 a week
That's a lot, and I know I spend more than most on this kind of thing because of my interests and my means, but that weekly cost is less than what I'd spend in a night going out to the bars.
If you can't afford crossfit that's obviously fine, but this rant about the obnoxiously greedy stupid expensive and evil xfit is pretty asinine. Just let it be, people are paying that much, and they enjoy it. To them it's worth it, just like to me the stuff I do is worth $108 a week.
I live in Seattle. So cost of living is pretty high. $150/month for crossfit is expensive IMHO.
Why?
1) The setup is pretty basic
2) What it takes to be xfit certified isn't that intensive.
3) You have to go at X time because classes are scheduled such.
4) Unless you want to do the same thing again, I believe xfit is only geared around a 3-4 per week schedule.
It might be okay if I could do other stuff there when I don't want to their classes but I have no idea of the bars/equipment are available if there is a class at the same time.
I already pay $100/month for a gym, so paying another $150 isn't logical to me. It would be better for me to set up the WOD at my current gym and find a way to do that vs joining another gym to do it.
So you pay $100 a month to go to a gym and $150 is somehow a really big deal?
This is like ranting about name brand clothes or apple products. People pay it and like the stuff, who cares?
No. I'm paying $100 to go to a gym. Paying ANOTHER $150 for limited additional benefit = expensive.
What you are saying is like paying for a Honda civic and complaining about not wanting to pay for another Honda civic. I could actually afford another Honda Civic but it would be a complete waste of money to pay twice for the essentially the same thing.
That is why I said "it might be okay if I could go and do other stuff when I'm not doing WOD" Why? Because then I could justify quitting one gym and paying for the xfit gym. But I doubt it because my Y has bball courts, swim center, cardio machines etc... things that the typical xfit does not have.
Where are people telling people to pay ANOTHER $150? Why do you think every person in the world is paying for two memberships? And if they are, why is that a problem? I've paid for 3+ memberships for years
Dyeb is stating that. Did you read his post? Or mine? You could not have but it appears that you just did that. What's the problem? I don't want two Honda civics0
This discussion has been closed.
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