Body Positive or Promoting an unhealthy lifestyle
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lemurcat12 wrote: »WillLift4Tats wrote: »But can't you agree that for a significant percent of the female population, this is true? I am sure I can find some past studies that back this up.
No, and none of the studies I've ever seen were convincing at all. It's just not consistent with my understanding of human nature and something that rather bugs me when pushed as a feminist issue (and I'm a feminist, I just don't think that skinny models are really the issue). In particular with something like anorexia the evidence seems to be that it predates current fashion norms and the tendency is probably more biological, from what I've read.
But I'm sorry to have brought this off topic, so will drop it now.
I totally agree here. I think the issue really starts at home with self esteem and what we're taught to value in other people and ourselves.
Sorry to butt in
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I don't think it's promoting any kind of lifestyle, I have more issue with the fact that the photos in the article seem to promote a specifc, objectified and cliched version of femininity, regardless of size.
As far as body positivity is concerned, to me that's an important and huge issue that involves a lot more than "fat acceptance". People with all kind of body issues should not be shamed. People in general are very rarely shamed into anything good, I think.
Finally, it's just marketing. And while I still buy plus sizes I am a lot more likely to buy from companies who use actual plus-sized models in their clothes, for purely practical reasons and nothong to do with ideology.0 -
Why wouldn't we have models in all sizes? How can you tell what your clothes are going to look like in a size 24 on a size 2 model? As far as her life style, I don't know how healthy she is. I hope she's healthy. But she got the job to model clothing, not to promote a life style.
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Woman Within is one of the most amusing plus size companies I've seen. Not only do they do the most absurd vanity sizing I've ever come across, the models they use are so slim that the clothes are baggy as heck on them, like they belong on someone 75 lbs heavier.
Yet, they're a very popular plus size clothing retailer despite this.0 -
I don't think she's promoting an unhealthy lifestyle at all. We don't know what the overall picture of her health is just like we don't know how she got to be the weight she is.
But based on her social media followers, the #EffYourBeautyStandards movement and the large amount of press she's recently received, we do know that she's has given thousands of individuals the encouragement to love their bodies.
Seeing her model a pair of jeans or a dress isn't going to make me want to run out and gorge myself on fried food and wave goodbye to the gym. But women like her, who are so gloriously comfortable in their own skin, makes me a little less embarrassed to wear a bathing suit at a crowded beach.
I don't care if you're a size 4 or a size 24. Anyone who loves their body and is comfortable in their own skin is wonderful in my book. Besides, what's it to me if someone likes the way they look and is happy with themselves? It's not like their happiness is going to rain piss in my egg whites and ruin my day.
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I think that there is a difference between feeling good about having a healthy, strong but imperfect/real body, vs. being defiant about being 100+ pounds overweight. The latter doesn't seem very psychologically healthy to me.
I don't understand why people think she is attractive--even if she got down to a more average weight, she doesn't have a unique or interesting look and her features aren't very nice.
If she were thin, nobody would look twice at her. Maybe that is why she is fighting so hard for this--she just wants the attention.
She is WAY too short to model--it is really quite silly, weight aside.0 -
I have body image issues, but I find it condescending when any movement tries to get me to chant that I'm beautiful.
You don't have to convince beautiful people to chant that they are beautiful.
The whole self-esteem stuff just comes off as false to me, like giving everyone a sticker or a participation ribbon. Who showcases that on their mantel?0 -
Lourdesong wrote: »I have body image issues, but I find it condescending when any movement tries to get me to chant that I'm beautiful.
You don't have to convince beautiful people to chant that they are beautiful.
The whole self-esteem stuff just comes off as false to me, like giving everyone a sticker or a participation ribbon. Who showcases that on their mantel?
I get that.0 -
azulvioleta6 wrote: »I think that there is a difference between feeling good about having a healthy, strong but imperfect/real body, vs. being defiant about being 100+ pounds overweight. The latter doesn't seem very psychologically healthy to me.
I don't understand why people think she is attractive--even if she got down to a more average weight, she doesn't have a unique or interesting look and her features aren't very nice.
If she were thin, nobody would look twice at her. Maybe that is why she is fighting so hard for this--she just wants the attention.
She is WAY too short to model--it is really quite silly, weight aside.
FALSE.
I looked twice at her, while she was overweight. And attractiveness is so much more than facial features. Confidence, that shine in a person's eyes.. that is where a lot of attraction comes from. And I DO believe that she is attractive, and if she were thin, she probably WOULD turn heads.
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Lourdesong wrote: »I have body image issues, but I find it condescending when any movement tries to get me to chant that I'm beautiful.
You don't have to convince beautiful people to chant that they are beautiful.
The whole self-esteem stuff just comes off as false to me, like giving everyone a sticker or a participation ribbon. Who showcases that on their mantel?
For me the whole self esteem stuff matters, because I'm raising two girls. I want them to know it's okay to think they are good at something, or smart, or kind - that it's not immodest or wrong to celebrate things you like about yourself. I don't want them to fall into the same self loathing trap loop that I did.
I do agree about the chanting stuff though. I don't think I'm beautiful (and I'm super okay with that), so being told I must think that makes me uncomfortable. But I hate to be bossed around
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Some people are larger and have healthy lifestyles. Some people are smaller and have healthy lifestyles. Some people are larger and have unhealthy lifestyles. Some people are smaller and have unhealthy lifestyles.
Size is not the best indicator of health or healthy lifestyle.
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msjessicamccoy wrote: »Some people are larger and have healthy lifestyles. Some people are smaller and have healthy lifestyles. Some people are larger and have unhealthy lifestyles. Some people are smaller and have unhealthy lifestyles.
Size is not the best indicator of health or healthy lifestyle.
To a certain extent.0 -
Lourdesong wrote: »Woman Within is one of the most amusing plus size companies I've seen. Not only do they do the most absurd vanity sizing I've ever come across, the models they use are so slim that the clothes are baggy as heck on them, like they belong on someone 75 lbs heavier.
Yet, they're a very popular plus size clothing retailer despite this.
I touched on this in an earlier post...but I really think thin-looking "plus size" models are part of the appeal for many women shopping plus.
I think some women look at those catalogs and others, thinking "well this woman is all proportional and lovely, but she's plus sized" and they aspire to be like that as well. They may naively imagine that's what the slightly smaller sizes like 12-14 look like (assuming they wear larger plus sizes) - I honestly thought that myself for years. I'm sure part of it is also imagining that the clothes' clever designs are really working to disguise "flaws" and unwanted extra pounds.
Is that a little nuts? Of course. Denial plays a huge role. But also, I think most of us have our favorite body parts and not so favorite, regardless of weight. As silly & shallow as it sounds when I'd see photos of plus size models who were truly plus size, even though they might weigh the same as I did, I couldn't help but think "yes but my arms are not quite like that thank goodness" and other ridiculous judgy thoughts. I think for some, seeing clothes on a regular everyday person is more disturbing than seeing them on a thin model and while that may be sad, it's one of the MAJOR reasons you don't see more truly plus models...yet?
Target has a new plus line coming out and I noticed some of the models are very much outside the norm. I looked at the photos and part of me was like "that looks fantastic" while another part of me was thinking "hmmm they are not going to sell skinny jeans to a plus sized teenager when they're on someone who looks (to their eye) like their dowdy History teacher".
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/01/81102/target-plus-size-lookbook-ava-viv#slide
Advertising/marketing is all about fantasy and that is going to take a lot to completely change.
Just my thoughts.
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MireyGal76 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »
Big people shouldn't be relegated to wearing tarps because the current market doesn't "like" the way they look!
Or America could follow other country leads and make it hard to find clothes above a size 14 or 16. That way, people might be a bit more motivated to lose weight, if they actually had to wear tarps because they are too big.
I don't think it's ok to give the message that you can be morbidly obese like that woman and that it's ok. It's just not ok. And no, I don't like skinny models either, but at least they are 20-30 pounds from a normal weight... not 200+.
So...what... we endeavor to make them feel like crap so that they'll lose weight? You think that will motivate the masses?
Getting healthy is hard work. Losing weight is hard work. You need to invest in yourself in order to make a change that is worth changing. That does not work well with self hatred. Do you think someone in a tarp is going to want to go work out? Do you think they will be able to hold their head high if nothing fits?
Example:
I'm not overweight, I'm at goal weight actually... but I am tall. Very tall (6'1"). And when nothing I try on fits me, I get upset, and angry, and frustrated, and I don't wanna go out. I feel like a mutant and I'm embarrassed.
I have long legs (37" inseam). I have long arms. I have a long torso. Dresses don't fit well. Long sleeve shirts don't fit well. NOTHING fits well, unless I buy from a tall store. But if my clothes don't fit me... I AM MISERABLE. I don't want to go to work. I feel uncomfortable there because I feel like people are staring. And by the end of the day, I am demotivated. I just wanna go home and flop down on the couch.
Being overweight and being tall are very different, I get that. But if my clothes impact me that strongly, how much more so will someone who has too much weight feel EVEN IF THEY'RE TRYING TO LOSE IT?
But hey... if we shame them into hiding... at least we don't have to look at them, right? /sarcasm
I'm not talking about shaming at all. I'm talking about awareness. When you grow up in a place where you just can't find clothes over a size 14, it's a totally different mentality, and it's easier to get back on track when your size 12 clothes get snug and you know you're running out of options, than when you're a size 22 and it's so easy to find clothes for your size, or the next size up and that being overweight is so easily accepted as normal.
But it's true that we are WAY past that in this country (and a lot of other countries, really). So, probably a moot point.
And I do agree that it's a nice change to see a woman who is actually a plus size modeling clothes. I'm just not sure if it's going to do any good, especially as, well, she didn't exactly pick the most flattering outfits to model.0 -
honkytonks85 wrote: »What always gets me is the assumption that being big = unhealthy lifestyle and being slim = healthy lifestyle. Not really the case. It is possible to be overweight and still be healthy. It is possible to be slim and be unhealthy.
thank you for your comment honkytonks. I have many friends who are ideal weight and have just as many health issues as I do.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »
Big people shouldn't be relegated to wearing tarps because the current market doesn't "like" the way they look!
Or America could follow other country leads and make it hard to find clothes above a size 14 or 16. That way, people might be a bit more motivated to lose weight, if they actually had to wear tarps because they are too big.
I don't think it's ok to give the message that you can be morbidly obese like that woman and that it's ok. It's just not ok. And no, I don't like skinny models either, but at least they are 20-30 pounds from a normal weight... not 200+.
So...what... we endeavor to make them feel like crap so that they'll lose weight? You think that will motivate the masses?
Getting healthy is hard work. Losing weight is hard work. You need to invest in yourself in order to make a change that is worth changing. That does not work well with self hatred. Do you think someone in a tarp is going to want to go work out? Do you think they will be able to hold their head high if nothing fits?
Example:
I'm not overweight, I'm at goal weight actually... but I am tall. Very tall (6'1"). And when nothing I try on fits me, I get upset, and angry, and frustrated, and I don't wanna go out. I feel like a mutant and I'm embarrassed.
I have long legs (37" inseam). I have long arms. I have a long torso. Dresses don't fit well. Long sleeve shirts don't fit well. NOTHING fits well, unless I buy from a tall store. But if my clothes don't fit me... I AM MISERABLE. I don't want to go to work. I feel uncomfortable there because I feel like people are staring. And by the end of the day, I am demotivated. I just wanna go home and flop down on the couch.
Being overweight and being tall are very different, I get that. But if my clothes impact me that strongly, how much more so will someone who has too much weight feel EVEN IF THEY'RE TRYING TO LOSE IT?
But hey... if we shame them into hiding... at least we don't have to look at them, right? /sarcasm
I'm not talking about shaming at all. I'm talking about awareness. When you grow up in a place where you just can't find clothes over a size 14, it's a totally different mentality, and it's easier to get back on track when your size 12 clothes get snug and you know you're running out of options, than when you're a size 22 and it's so easy to find clothes for your size, or the next size up and that being overweight is so easily accepted as normal.
But it's true that we are WAY past that in this country (and a lot of other countries, really). So, probably a moot point.
And I do agree that it's a nice change to see a woman who is actually a plus size modeling clothes. I'm just not sure if it's going to do any good, especially as, well, she didn't exactly pick the most flattering outfits to model.
why does she have to wear clothing that YOU deem appropriate for her body?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »WillLift4Tats wrote: »But can't you agree that for a significant percent of the female population, this is true? I am sure I can find some past studies that back this up.
No, and none of the studies I've ever seen were convincing at all. It's just not consistent with my understanding of human nature and something that rather bugs me when pushed as a feminist issue (and I'm a feminist, I just don't think that skinny models are really the issue). In particular with something like anorexia the evidence seems to be that it predates current fashion norms and the tendency is probably more biological, from what I've read.
But I'm sorry to have brought this off topic, so will drop it now.
I must disagree. There are plenty of studies to back this up. Not to say ads/models are the sole factor, not at all. They do play a part in some young adults, not just young women.
And to speak to Virgoddess, yes I completely agree that this starts at home with good modeling (no pun intended)0 -
salembambi wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »
Big people shouldn't be relegated to wearing tarps because the current market doesn't "like" the way they look!
Or America could follow other country leads and make it hard to find clothes above a size 14 or 16. That way, people might be a bit more motivated to lose weight, if they actually had to wear tarps because they are too big.
I don't think it's ok to give the message that you can be morbidly obese like that woman and that it's ok. It's just not ok. And no, I don't like skinny models either, but at least they are 20-30 pounds from a normal weight... not 200+.
So...what... we endeavor to make them feel like crap so that they'll lose weight? You think that will motivate the masses?
Getting healthy is hard work. Losing weight is hard work. You need to invest in yourself in order to make a change that is worth changing. That does not work well with self hatred. Do you think someone in a tarp is going to want to go work out? Do you think they will be able to hold their head high if nothing fits?
Example:
I'm not overweight, I'm at goal weight actually... but I am tall. Very tall (6'1"). And when nothing I try on fits me, I get upset, and angry, and frustrated, and I don't wanna go out. I feel like a mutant and I'm embarrassed.
I have long legs (37" inseam). I have long arms. I have a long torso. Dresses don't fit well. Long sleeve shirts don't fit well. NOTHING fits well, unless I buy from a tall store. But if my clothes don't fit me... I AM MISERABLE. I don't want to go to work. I feel uncomfortable there because I feel like people are staring. And by the end of the day, I am demotivated. I just wanna go home and flop down on the couch.
Being overweight and being tall are very different, I get that. But if my clothes impact me that strongly, how much more so will someone who has too much weight feel EVEN IF THEY'RE TRYING TO LOSE IT?
But hey... if we shame them into hiding... at least we don't have to look at them, right? /sarcasm
I'm not talking about shaming at all. I'm talking about awareness. When you grow up in a place where you just can't find clothes over a size 14, it's a totally different mentality, and it's easier to get back on track when your size 12 clothes get snug and you know you're running out of options, than when you're a size 22 and it's so easy to find clothes for your size, or the next size up and that being overweight is so easily accepted as normal.
But it's true that we are WAY past that in this country (and a lot of other countries, really). So, probably a moot point.
And I do agree that it's a nice change to see a woman who is actually a plus size modeling clothes. I'm just not sure if it's going to do any good, especially as, well, she didn't exactly pick the most flattering outfits to model.
why does she have to wear clothing that YOU deem appropriate for her body?
*shrug* whatever floats people's boats.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »MireyGal76 wrote: »
Big people shouldn't be relegated to wearing tarps because the current market doesn't "like" the way they look!
Or America could follow other country leads and make it hard to find clothes above a size 14 or 16. That way, people might be a bit more motivated to lose weight, if they actually had to wear tarps because they are too big.
I don't think it's ok to give the message that you can be morbidly obese like that woman and that it's ok. It's just not ok. And no, I don't like skinny models either, but at least they are 20-30 pounds from a normal weight... not 200+.
So...what... we endeavor to make them feel like crap so that they'll lose weight? You think that will motivate the masses?
Getting healthy is hard work. Losing weight is hard work. You need to invest in yourself in order to make a change that is worth changing. That does not work well with self hatred. Do you think someone in a tarp is going to want to go work out? Do you think they will be able to hold their head high if nothing fits?
Example:
I'm not overweight, I'm at goal weight actually... but I am tall. Very tall (6'1"). And when nothing I try on fits me, I get upset, and angry, and frustrated, and I don't wanna go out. I feel like a mutant and I'm embarrassed.
I have long legs (37" inseam). I have long arms. I have a long torso. Dresses don't fit well. Long sleeve shirts don't fit well. NOTHING fits well, unless I buy from a tall store. But if my clothes don't fit me... I AM MISERABLE. I don't want to go to work. I feel uncomfortable there because I feel like people are staring. And by the end of the day, I am demotivated. I just wanna go home and flop down on the couch.
Being overweight and being tall are very different, I get that. But if my clothes impact me that strongly, how much more so will someone who has too much weight feel EVEN IF THEY'RE TRYING TO LOSE IT?
But hey... if we shame them into hiding... at least we don't have to look at them, right? /sarcasm
I'm not talking about shaming at all. I'm talking about awareness. When you grow up in a place where you just can't find clothes over a size 14, it's a totally different mentality, and it's easier to get back on track when your size 12 clothes get snug and you know you're running out of options, than when you're a size 22 and it's so easy to find clothes for your size, or the next size up and that being overweight is so easily accepted as normal.
But it's true that we are WAY past that in this country (and a lot of other countries, really). So, probably a moot point.
And I do agree that it's a nice change to see a woman who is actually a plus size modeling clothes. I'm just not sure if it's going to do any good, especially as, well, she didn't exactly pick the most flattering outfits to model.
There's no way to argue that having to wear a tarp instead of real clothing is not shaming.
Sorry, but no.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »azulvioleta6 wrote: »I think that there is a difference between feeling good about having a healthy, strong but imperfect/real body, vs. being defiant about being 100+ pounds overweight. The latter doesn't seem very psychologically healthy to me.
I don't understand why people think she is attractive--even if she got down to a more average weight, she doesn't have a unique or interesting look and her features aren't very nice.
If she were thin, nobody would look twice at her. Maybe that is why she is fighting so hard for this--she just wants the attention.
She is WAY too short to model--it is really quite silly, weight aside.
FALSE.
I looked twice at her, while she was overweight. And attractiveness is so much more than facial features. Confidence, that shine in a person's eyes.. that is where a lot of attraction comes from. And I DO believe that she is attractive, and if she were thin, she probably WOULD turn heads.
Hmmm...I find her extremely plain.0
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