losing fat/ gaining muscle mass simutaneously
irongrinder
Posts: 202 Member
there's no goal in here set to account for both losing fat and gaining muscle at the time, if I just lose fat, I'm just losing weight, if I just build muscle, I'm just gaining weight. I want to do both, so how do I make my goal? I will not do like all these other body buiilders and "bulk then cut" because I know it's possible to do both at the same time. So how do I set my goal weight and goal calorie intake and all that stuff?
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Brah you can't do both the same time, that's why everyone does bulking/cutting. If there was a way to do both, there would be no need for bulks and cuts, and everyone would be in a happy place with their shirts off 24/7 (not that I would complain). I don't even lift and even I know that.0
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I could be wrong, but as I understand it fat loss requires a caloric deficit. Muscle building requires a slight caloric surplus and lifting. You cannot do both at the same time, it's not possible.
ETA: I currently don't lift either, and I also know that.0 -
As far as I know, you can't do both.
To lose fat, you need to eat at a deficit.
To gain muscle, you need to eat at a surplus.
They don't go together. You can work on strengthening the muscles you have, of course. But you can't build muscle out of thin air - you need something (the extra calories) with which to build them.0 -
It may not be as efficient to attempt to do both but it can be done. To argue otherwise seems a bit silly.
If you take someone and put them at maintenance calories and put them on a progressively demanding resistance training program and push progress for a year or two, do you honestly believe that there will be NO CHANGE in physique?
You can do both at the same time, it might not be as efficient.
Stick calories at maintenance and monitor weight for a couple of weeks. If your weight goes up, slightly reduce calories. If it goes down, slightly increase calories. Monitor and adjust/repeat as needed.0 -
Okay, my mistake.0
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »Okay, my mistake.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to direct my comment at you. It's just that it's often claimed that recomping does not exist or that you CANT do it and I believe that's incorrect.
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »Okay, my mistake.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to direct my comment at you. It's just that it's often claimed that recomping does not exist or that you CANT do it and I believe that's incorrect.
It's okay. I really didn't think it could be done. Learn something new every day
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I don't understand this...I thought strengthening muscle was the result of building muscle. Isn't that how they get stronger? You work them hard, microtears occur, the body then rebuilds it stronger and bigger than before to adapt?TheVirgoddess wrote: »As far as I know, you can't do both.
To lose fat, you need to eat at a deficit.
To gain muscle, you need to eat at a surplus.
They don't go together. You can work on strengthening the muscles you have, of course. But you can't build muscle out of thin air - you need something (the extra calories) with which to build them.
This is a serious question. I don't understand how you get stronger without building muscle. I am not a body builder and haven't researched this.
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It takes a whole lot longer, I've done it and it wasn't my thing. You have to find your maintenance level where you don't gain or lose and work from that. Your diet must be on point.0
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@SideSteel - Thank you.
I've heard repeatedly "it's impossible, aside from some small newbie gains" so that was discouraging... I lost a decent chunk of muscle weight that I had from heavy weight training in the past. I want to build it back up but still lose weight, or my tears will floweth without end!0 -
It's a lie. You CAN build muscle and cut fat at the same time. The muscle burns calories faster anyway. It's not rocket science. Ignore the noise.1
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »Okay, my mistake.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to direct my comment at you. It's just that it's often claimed that recomping does not exist or that you CANT do it and I believe that's incorrect.
To be fair, it seems that most people choose to bulk and cut because recomping can take a very long time. I have not done it, but from the success stories I've seen, it can take years to notice dramatic changes in the body. While possible, it seems that many people would lack the dedication, but it will vary from person to person.0 -
It is possible to gain strength without actually adding new muscle mass, especially for those who are new to lifting. I started lifting on a mostly consistent basis in the fall. Not only was I able to lift more weight with the exercises I was doing, but within a couple months I could tell with lifting/pushing heavy things in real life I had gained strength. During this time I did not gain any weight, but my muscles had adapted to the stress placed on them to be able to lift heavier weight. This is called neural adaption.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
I don't understand this...I thought strengthening muscle was the result of building muscle. Isn't that how they get stronger? You work them hard, microtears occur, the body then rebuilds it stronger and bigger than before to adapt?TheVirgoddess wrote: »As far as I know, you can't do both.
To lose fat, you need to eat at a deficit.
To gain muscle, you need to eat at a surplus.
They don't go together. You can work on strengthening the muscles you have, of course. But you can't build muscle out of thin air - you need something (the extra calories) with which to build them.
This is a serious question. I don't understand how you get stronger without building muscle. I am not a body builder and haven't researched this.
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According to this calculator (which claims to be used by the US Navy), I've lost 81 lb of fat and gained 4 lb of lean body mass at the same time. I would have been happy simply not to lose muscle [ETA: while losing fat, of course].
I ate at a calorie deficit (generally several hundred under my BMR), did lots of cardio (generally 5 hours or more a week), and lifted weights 2-3 times a week.
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This blog post has quotes from & links to a couple of articles discussing that concept.JimFsfitnesspal wrote:The muscle burns calories faster anyway.
There's a difference, but not as much as people seem to think.
"a pound of muscle burns six calories a day at rest and a pound of fat burns about two calories a day"
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/16/health/la-he-fitness-muscle-myth-20110516
"Sedentary muscle mass burns about 6 kcals per pound/day ... Fat about 2 kcals per pound [per day]."
http://www.ncsf.org/enew/articles/articles-poundofmuscle.aspx
The author says on the first page:
"... let's use me as a guinea pig and do the math. The 20 pounds of muscle I've gained through years of hard work equate to an added 120 calories to my RMR... However, I also engaged in a lot of aerobic activity and dietary restriction to lose 50 pounds of fat, which means I also lost 100 calories per day of RMR. So, post-physical transformation, my net caloric burn is only 20 calories higher per day, earning me one-third of an Oreo cookie. Bummer."
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/16/health/la-he-fitness-muscle-myth-20110516/20 -
MoiAussi93 wrote: »
I don't understand this...I thought strengthening muscle was the result of building muscle. Isn't that how they get stronger? You work them hard, microtears occur, the body then rebuilds it stronger and bigger than before to adapt?TheVirgoddess wrote: »As far as I know, you can't do both.
To lose fat, you need to eat at a deficit.
To gain muscle, you need to eat at a surplus.
They don't go together. You can work on strengthening the muscles you have, of course. But you can't build muscle out of thin air - you need something (the extra calories) with which to build them.
This is a serious question. I don't understand how you get stronger without building muscle. I am not a body builder and haven't researched this.
One major component of strength is neurological. I wouldn't be able to accurately cite things in great detail but here's me taking a basic crack at it -- the rate at which neurons fire signals to innervate motor units effects your force production. Higher motor unit firing rate = greater force production. So basically without any change in muscle size if you can improve rate coding you can get stronger.
But in fairness, doing a strength based routine will typically cause the potential for a gain in muscular size and vise versa. So you CAN get stronger without getting bigger but in many cases the things you do to make yourself stronger also provide the stimulus to allow for growth.0 -
>There's a difference, but not as much as people seem to think.... "a pound of muscle >burns six calories a day at rest and a pound of fat burns about two calories a day"
You are contradicting yourself. Plus I have 8 inches of lost waist in a year that says you are wrong.
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »TheVirgoddess wrote: »As far as I know, you can't do both.
....
This is a serious question. I don't understand how you get stronger without building muscle. I am not a body builder and haven't researched this.
One major component of strength is neurological. I wouldn't be able to accurately cite things in great detail but here's me taking a basic crack at it -- the rate at which neurons fire signals to innervate motor units effects your force production. Higher motor unit firing rate = greater force production...
Agreed. Thanks for posting. I saw a study where they lifted heavy (to failure) with just one arm and at the end the left arm was almost as strong just from the nervous system gains.0 -
I have been working on recomping for a few months now (profile pic is not current!) and I just have my goals set to maintain. It seems to be working for me.0
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Thanks, I definitely learned something here.
One major component of strength is neurological. I wouldn't be able to accurately cite things in great detail but here's me taking a basic crack at it -- the rate at which neurons fire signals to innervate motor units effects your force production. Higher motor unit firing rate = greater force production. So basically without any change in muscle size if you can improve rate coding you can get stronger.
But in fairness, doing a strength based routine will typically cause the potential for a gain in muscular size and vise versa. So you CAN get stronger without getting bigger but in many cases the things you do to make yourself stronger also provide the stimulus to allow for growth.
I see I should read up on neural adaption...I had never heard of it before this thread.ForecasterJason wrote: »It is possible to gain strength without actually adding new muscle mass, especially for those who are new to lifting. I started lifting on a mostly consistent basis in the fall. Not only was I able to lift more weight with the exercises I was doing, but within a couple months I could tell with lifting/pushing heavy things in real life I had gained strength. During this time I did not gain any weight, but my muscles had adapted to the stress placed on them to be able to lift heavier weight. This is called neural adaption.
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I've done both. I did Lyle MacDonalds amazing Ultimate Diet where you cut for half the week and bulk for half the week. It's INSANELY difficult, your blood sugar is everywhere, dizzy, fatigued, the workouts are very difficult and you may as well shut yourself off from the world for the weeks that you do it. I recomped. Measurements went down in the right places, and up in the right places, weight dropped a little. There's no way I could have done any triathlon training and it was time consuming. I shudder thinking about the depletion workouts on day three. Awful.
As for a long term recomp, I'm far beyond that now, but now I'm in training for summer I'm at maintenance, so I'll see what happens. Thing is, it's very hard to calculate, if you drop/add inches, stay the same weight, then are you recomping or just losing fat and getting more muscle definition? So you up your maintenance figure...it's just not easy to tell if it's working. It's a tricky one to monitor.
Bulking and cutting was by far the easiest and most satisfying method I've used yet. My body absolutely thrived on the bulk, I felt everything get a blast of growth hormone, and my body was amazing at the end. Totally different shape, like an athlete. It is also easy to do the maths, easy to see and track results, and best of all you can incorporate the into normal life better. No it's not an exact science either but it's the closest one for me to get the right results. You just have to have your eye on the ball and be able to pack a little body fat on.
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You can do both at the same time, essentially you'll be building muscle and decreasing your body fat, so far I have lost 26kg's and certainly gained plenty of muscle along the way through most of my exercise being heavy weights coupled with a high protein diet. Still eating at a deficit to lose fat which means the muscle gains aren't as efficient as those on a genuine bulk but it's still certainly happening.1
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My personal view is that the advice for people to follow bulk cut cycles has become overstated and it's gone from a niche technique for competitive body builders to general advice for everyone in my (admittedly long...) training lifespan.
Possibly due to the emphasis changing over the years from mainly strength to physique goals?
So much depends on personal targets and the context of where people are with their training status and body composition.
This is worth a read:
http://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/
I'm not anti bulk/cut cycles at all by the way, it's just got a bit silly with people making blanket statements and recommending it for everyone.0 -
I have been working on recomping for a few months now (profile pic is not current!) and I just have my goals set to maintain. It seems to be working for me.
This is what I've been doing. Scoobyworkshop does actually have a setting for Lose Fat/Build Muscle on their calorie calculator, but their macros did not work for me, high carbs, low fat, so for the past few months I've been doing the opposite, low carbs, high fat and after a year of no progress, I'm finally seeing some change. It's not easy, you'll have to play with your calories and be very very patient.
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maccarossi1 wrote: »You can do both at the same time, essentially you'll be building muscle and decreasing your body fat, so far I have lost 26kg's and certainly gained plenty of muscle along the way through most of my exercise being heavy weights coupled with a high protein diet. Still eating at a deficit to lose fat which means the muscle gains aren't as efficient as those on a genuine bulk but it's still certainly happening.
In a straight deficit you could see small noob gains but you are not building "plenty of muscle" as you put it. You need a surplus as proper training for that. You might say that you see it in the mirror but it's an optical illusion. You're losing weight, your muscles are retaining water and are looking more full therefore giving you the illusion that you are building plenty of muscle.
Yeah sorry may have put that a bit more enthusiastically than I should have, strength gains have been quite huge personally (on squat, DL, Bench) but as far as muscle goes I'm sure there has been some but at the same time it may just be becoming more defined as I lose weight.0 -
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »
I don't understand this...I thought strengthening muscle was the result of building muscle. Isn't that how they get stronger? You work them hard, microtears occur, the body then rebuilds it stronger and bigger than before to adapt?TheVirgoddess wrote: »As far as I know, you can't do both.
To lose fat, you need to eat at a deficit.
To gain muscle, you need to eat at a surplus.
They don't go together. You can work on strengthening the muscles you have, of course. But you can't build muscle out of thin air - you need something (the extra calories) with which to build them.
This is a serious question. I don't understand how you get stronger without building muscle. I am not a body builder and haven't researched this.
strength gains do not equal muscle gains..
you can train a muscle to be more efficient and lift more, but that does not mean you are building new muscle.0 -
http://youtu.be/Bz3AG-oCXTEThis discussion has been closed.
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