losing fat/ gaining muscle mass simutaneously
Replies
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I'm having a hard time understanding what some people said earlier about not gaining muscle even though you're getting stronger if you're not bulking. The illusion of water retention or something. It doesn't make sense that your muscles wouldn't grow if you're going to failure and really pushing them...? I assume with high protein intake you'll be building muscle ...just at a slower pace if you're also working on burning fat. Someone explain this illusion that your muscles aren't growing ? I know muscle growth in general is very slow, regardless of who you are you're probably not gonna be able to gain much more than 5-10 lbs max of muscle every year (that's the # I understand it to be).
Sure I want muscles to look bigger but as a female my main issue and goal is to build strength. So I suppose I can get over how big/shaped my muscles look as long as I'm gaining strength, which no one has said you can't do when losing fat/"recomping." I'm just having a hard time understanding how your muscles wouldn't actually be growing if you feed them protein and more BCAAs despite a calorie deficit and cardio work.0 -
love2lift247 wrote: »JimFsfitnesspal wrote: »
What point are you trying to make. Posting random links with no context is well...random.
he claims to have lost 20 pound of fat and gained 10 pounds of muscle in another thread…
mrm and I argue that his calculations are off..
I guess now he is just going spam any thread about gaining muscle while in a deficit...
who's lost 20 pounds of fat? wasn't me, I haven't posted anything else other than this
i was referring to another poster...0 -
I'm having a hard time understanding what some people said earlier about not gaining muscle even though you're getting stronger if you're not bulking. The illusion of water retention or something. It doesn't make sense that your muscles wouldn't grow if you're going to failure and really pushing them...? I assume with high protein intake you'll be building muscle ...just at a slower pace if you're also working on burning fat. Someone explain this illusion that your muscles aren't growing ? I know muscle growth in general is very slow, regardless of who you are you're probably not gonna be able to gain much more than 5-10 lbs max of muscle every year (that's the # I understand it to be).
Sure I want muscles to look bigger but as a female my main issue and goal is to build strength. So I suppose I can get over how big/shaped my muscles look as long as I'm gaining strength, which no one has said you can't do when losing fat/"recomping." I'm just having a hard time understanding how your muscles wouldn't actually be growing if you feed them protein and more BCAAs despite a calorie deficit and cardio work.
muscle gains do not equal strength gains …
think of it like a business looks at productivity. If you increase productivity and get more work done with the SAME staff, you have increased their ability to complete said work, but you have not increased the size of your staff. You are getting more done with the same staff.
Strength gains are the same thing. You have trained your existing muscles to lift more weight. Hence, the EXISTING muscle is now more efficient and can lift more. So you are lifting more weight with the same muscle. I believe the term is neuromuscular adaptation = your muscles and existing nervous system become more efficient and can do more with the same muscle/system.
some people think they have more muscle because they lose body fat and it allows existing muscle to show, and then add in water retention and existing muscle looks bigger.
Hope this helps….0 -
Ok that makes sense, but then how do you know whether you actually gained muscle or just strength? Perhaps even while bulking you were still training existing muscle? If your definition and muscles appear bigger while bulking could you still have just gained strength and not muscle? Can you gain muscle without gaining strength...?0
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Ok that makes sense, but then how do you know whether you actually gained muscle or just strength? Perhaps even while bulking you were still training existing muscle? If your definition and muscles appear bigger while bulking could you still have just gained strength and not muscle? Can you gain muscle without gaining strength...?
How do you know you are gaining muscle? Take measurements every four weeks and see if size is increasing; track progress on scale; and take progress pictures. If your biceps go from 11 inches to 11.5 inches then you are gaining muscle. On my last bulk, which ended two weeks ago
I gained ten pounds…how do I know that I gained muscle? All of my starting measurements increased and I look bigger in my progress pictures….
Can you gain muscle without gaining strength? I am going to say hi. Because to gain muscle you need progressive overload, which means that you are going to need to lift heavier things so you would have to be adding strength.0 -
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I'm having a hard time understanding what some people said earlier about not gaining muscle even though you're getting stronger if you're not bulking. The illusion of water retention or something. It doesn't make sense that your muscles wouldn't grow if you're going to failure and really pushing them...? I assume with high protein intake you'll be building muscle ...just at a slower pace if you're also working on burning fat. Someone explain this illusion that your muscles aren't growing ? I know muscle growth in general is very slow, regardless of who you are you're probably not gonna be able to gain much more than 5-10 lbs max of muscle every year (that's the # I understand it to be).
Sure I want muscles to look bigger but as a female my main issue and goal is to build strength. So I suppose I can get over how big/shaped my muscles look as long as I'm gaining strength, which no one has said you can't do when losing fat/"recomping." I'm just having a hard time understanding how your muscles wouldn't actually be growing if you feed them protein and more BCAAs despite a calorie deficit and cardio work.
muscle gains do not equal strength gains …
think of it like a business looks at productivity. If you increase productivity and get more work done with the SAME staff, you have increased their ability to complete said work, but you have not increased the size of your staff. You are getting more done with the same staff.
Strength gains are the same thing. You have trained your existing muscles to lift more weight. Hence, the EXISTING muscle is now more efficient and can lift more. So you are lifting more weight with the same muscle. I believe the term is neuromuscular adaptation = your muscles and existing nervous system become more efficient and can do more with the same muscle/system.
some people think they have more muscle because they lose body fat and it allows existing muscle to show, and then add in water retention and existing muscle looks bigger.
Hope this helps….
I was typing out almost the same thing but then the chiropractor started working on me. Well said.
thanks man ..I have my moments LOL
Learned from the best….0 -
Ok, so the idea that your muscles mainly use the protein you consume to rebuild and add muscle to vigorously worked muscles doesn't matter if you're eating at a deficit? High protein is moot point? That is still what kinda doesn't make sense to me. If you're essentially injuring your muscles and refueling with lots of protein, why wouldn't your body be burning more of your fat and carb stores and still use the protein to build muscle?0
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Albeit at a lower rate than if you were bulking. That of course makes sense.0
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Ok, so the idea that your muscles mainly use the protein you consume to rebuild and add muscle to vigorously worked muscles doesn't matter if you're eating at a deficit? High protein is moot point? That is still what kinda doesn't make sense to me. If you're essentially injuring your muscles and refueling with lots of protein, why wouldn't your body be burning more of your fat and carb stores and still use the protein to build muscle?
OK when in a deficit you want to increase protein to maintain as much existing LBM. The only people that will gain muscle in a deficit are unexperienced lifters (newbies) and high performance athletes; so for 90% of the rest of us the best that we can hope for is to maintain what we have.
when you are in surplus you want to actually be eating majority carbs and protein becomes less important than carb intake.
To your last point …when you are in a deficit your body is not efficient enough to just take excess protein and put it to building muscle mass. The reason for this is that when you are in an energy deficit your body directs energy reserves to essential bodily functions…
Think of it this way. If you have X materials and are trying to build a house and you run out of said materials, can you then start to tear down the house to build the other part of it and build the entire house at the same time?
It is the same with muscles.0 -
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Ok, gotcha. I knew carbs and fats assist your body with rebuilding muscle, just thought it might primarily use the constant supply of protein and maybe turn to your stored fat and carbs if you're not supplying it with enough new ones. Definitely testosterone is key too. Was considering taking a test booster but a little fearful of messing with my hormones too much. Tried DIM for the first time yesterday, not a test booster but possibly blocks estrogen - wow I was progressively emotional and depressed as the day went on. Not sure I can handle that.0
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Ok, gotcha. I knew carbs and fats assist your body with rebuilding muscle, just thought it might primarily use the constant supply of protein and maybe turn to your stored fat and carbs if you're not supplying it with enough new ones. Definitely testosterone is key too. Was considering taking a test booster but a little fearful of messing with my hormones too much. Tried DIM for the first time yesterday, not a test booster but possibly blocks estrogen - wow I was progressively emotional and depressed as the day went on. Not sure I can handle that.
Don't take that stuff. Estrogen (although it's testosterones poor relative) plays it's part in building/maintaining muscle.
You'd be better off using gear than messing with your hormones (don't do that either though).
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love2lift247 wrote: »there's no goal in here set to account for both losing fat and gaining muscle at the time, if I just lose fat, I'm just losing weight, if I just build muscle, I'm just gaining weight. I want to do both, so how do I make my goal? I will not do like all these other body buiilders and "bulk then cut" because I know it's possible to do both at the same time. So how do I set my goal weight and goal calorie intake and all that stuff?yopeeps025 wrote: »JimFsfitnesspal wrote: »It's a lie. You CAN build muscle and cut fat at the same time. The muscle burns calories faster anyway. It's not rocket science. Ignore the noise.
What does that have to do with losing fat and building muscle. I mean like how you do these goals because it seems you don't know?
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What kind of training are you doing? Cardio? Weights? You will obviously need to lift weight to build muscle which in turn will help to burn fat because more muscle equals more fat being burned. The leaner we are the more calories we burn. There is such a thing as a clean bulk which means eating very clean and not eating "bad" foods. Check out bodybuilding.com. There are a lot of workout programs on there. I use Kris Gethin's programs and find they work well.
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ok, very hard to read all these and reply to everyone. So, I don't want you guys to think I'm not getting anything out of this because I really don't know anything about body building or working out, or the mechanics of the body when it comes to bulk and muscle and fat and nitric oxide and amino acids and all that.... I'm clueless, but I want to learn, ever since November I've been a mental sponge doing as much reading and watching videos on this stuff as I can.
to Rachstar77, I do about 10 - 20 minutes of cardio to work up a sweat, then I hit weights.. I can't afford a gym membership so I workout at home with a plain jane flat bench (not exercise), a set of 1.5 lb dumbells, a set of 3 lb dumbells, a 30 lb set of dumbells, an ab wheel, 2 jugs of water, 2 spare tires, a bowling ball, (most of that is in my profile picture) a slab of concrete from an anchored pole, and a bucket of rocks hooked up to a rope and pully (for pull downs and whatever else I can think to do with it), and I recent added a 60 lb sandbag and a resistance band. but to tell you the truth I'm getting really bored with it. I put a cheap *kitten* Kmart weight bench on layaway so that'll give me some better weight training in a month when I pay it off.
I workout in the basement that has a low ceiling and it's cold as hell down there even with a heater on, it's all concrete so I don't get internet to do youtube videos so I pretty much just do burpees and jumping jacks and mock jump rope and whatever I can (remind you it's a low ceiling so I can't jump without hitting my head or fully extend my arms up over my head)
Like I said I have a goal, I have the motivation and drive, and at this point I'll do thatever it takes to get my dream body.0 -
I'm on bodybuilding.com, I use it every day along with this, it helps me a lot, my username is outtashape247 if you want to look me up0
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The cold is a bonus! I workout in the garage and it's freezing just now but a nightmare in summer.
Rig up a pull-up bar in there - I love mine (various bits of pipe at all different angles my dad has screwed into the joists for me). I have a homemade bench and parallel bars (courtesy of my dad again) and a similar pulley system to yours, I just tie plates on.
I'd really recommend investing in a barbell, plates and squat rack. There are a lot more beginner programmes to pick from that way. It's well worth the money and you can buy gradually as you increase in strength.
Or google bodyweight programmes like YAYOG or convict conditioning, the guys who've designed these know what they're doing. Waldo's site is a great resource for bodyweight stuff too, strengthunbound.com1 -
Ok, gotcha. I knew carbs and fats assist your body with rebuilding muscle, just thought it might primarily use the constant supply of protein and maybe turn to your stored fat and carbs if you're not supplying it with enough new ones. Definitely testosterone is key too. Was considering taking a test booster but a little fearful of messing with my hormones too much. Tried DIM for the first time yesterday, not a test booster but possibly blocks estrogen - wow I was progressively emotional and depressed as the day went on. Not sure I can handle that.
As Elaine mentioned, don't use an estrogen blocker. Test boosters generally try to increase free test but really don't do anything for muscle synthesis. Of note, many have been shown to increase male libido for those with lowered test levels.
Any questions you have about supplements can generally be found at this site: examine.com/supplements/Diindolylmethane/ I've already did the search for DIM so you can see what the current research shows.
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 18 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
Updated numbers and routine on next page...0 -
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
Man. I don't know if I have the patience for this.0 -
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
Is she eating at maintenance? Just wondering what your method is here...like what are her macros etc?
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Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.
Well...when you put it that way.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.
IDK if i could be that meticulous with my logging for 15 months straight…I feel with a bulk/cut cycle you have a little more room for error…
but I could be wrong...0 -
arditarose wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.
Well...when you put it that way.
^ do it!!!0 -
arditarose wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.
Well...when you put it that way.
Opps should have been 3lbs of total weight FM was about 18lbs lost.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know how slow it is? Is it known how much fat loss/muscle gain can take place in a year (a range since there will always be personal variables)?
I'm just curios since I've seen people recomp when they give up on the last 5 or 10 pounds, and it can take them several years. With 20 pounds, would it be possible if he gave it enough time (and is that likely to be 10 years or something ridiculous)?
I worked with a women for 15 months on her recomp. Started at 150 @ 26% body fat and is now 147 @ 14.5% body fat. And these were validated by a DEXA scan. But she was also very meticulous with her logging (in fact, ate rather boring as she as the same thing almost daily). But for the most part, recomps are taking 2 to 3 times longer than a normal bulk/cut cycle.
So she gained 15 lbs of LBM in 15 months and lost 3 lbs of FM. Doesn't seem slow to me in the end it looks like she is were she would have been if she had have done the traditional bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it seems slow because the scale doesn't move and you don't see yourself blow up and shrink down but in the end it looks like she is right where she would have been anyway.
IDK if i could be that meticulous with my logging for 15 months straight…I feel with a bulk/cut cycle you have a little more room for error…
but I could be wrong...
It's really a preference I guess.
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