why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
Options
Replies
-
I'll say nothing on the correct/incorrectness of the belief, only that it goes along with a way of eating that helps some people reach their goals in a way that feels comfortable to them. It's not for everyone and it wasn't for me... and I'm happy for everyone who has done well with low carb.0
-
Isn't telling someone they're unnecessary helping them?mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
0 -
Isn't telling someone they're unnecessary helping them?mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
Is it helping people who ask about taking up running to tell them that running is unnecessary? Because it is, but it would be generally viewed as trollish to go into all the running threads and tell people not to bother.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked. I think most people who come on wanting to cut carbs know how to do it already.
It gets refuted when people think they HAVE to do it lose weight. They're not universally told that it's all wrong, and most of the non-low carbers in this thread tell them to give it a try, and if it works, great, if it doesn't there are other options. They are always advised that the idea is to find a sustainable way of eating is best.
The thing is, you're always going to have outliers on the forums who advise in the extreme. That can't be helped.
0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked. I think most people who come on wanting to cut carbs know how to do it already.
It gets refuted when people think they HAVE to do it lose weight. They're not universally told that it's all wrong, and most of the non-low carbers in this thread tell them to give it a try, and if it works, great, if it doesn't there are other options. They are always advised that the idea is to find a sustainable way of eating is best.
The thing is, you're always going to have outliers on the forums who advise in the extreme. That can't be helped.
Lol, that's not what happens, though. What often happens is a 10-page thread of pictures of donuts and cheesecake.
0 -
RockstarWilson wrote: »RockstarWilson wrote: »I don't even know where to begin...
The process of converting protein to glucose through gluconeogensis is not thermodynamically favorable. What this means, it just takes more energy to convert specific amino acids to glucose. I see data that suggests your metabolic rate raises on a ketogenic based diet. This was done on people in a calorimeter, with a tighly controlled diet.
So you can sit there eat 2000 calories of a carb based diet with no results due to your TDEE being 2000. Switch over to a low carb diet and your metabolism can increase above 2000. You can sit there eating 2000 calories of a protein based diet and lose weight. Then you come to the conclusion, "i am eating the same as before."
Someone said something about fat and satiety. That theory was a long time ago, I would assume in the late 1990's. Fat supposedly triggers CCK(Cholecystokinin) which makes you feel fuller. But we also have to keep in mind if that's even true, fat is still double the calories.
There is also some people talking about eating a lot of fat such as in keto, the fat comes out the other end. I mean we all heard of floaters... so Idk. It's a possibility.
I'm going to focus on the bold part since I've never seen the data you suggest in the first paragraph.
I don't understand what you mean that fat is double the calories, as in what that means to low carb diets? Low carb dieters don't take the 100g of carbs they would eat otherwise and go and eat 100g of fat instead because they cut those 100g out. I guess I'm confused on what that line meant.
1g of carbs = 4 calories
1g of fat = 9 calories
I understand that. I'm just not sure what the poster meant by that line. That since a gram of fat is double the calories that is why people claim to feel more full, that there are more calories per gram? Just not sure. Either way, I think that feeling full is a big plus for people that eat LCHF.
I feel full and don't eat LCHF.....not sure why LCHFers think they are the only ones to feel full
The difference is that the low carbers who eat high fat will feel full (synonymous with not feeling hungry or weak from hunger) not for 6-8 hours, but from 8-16 hours or longer. I can eat dinner at 8pm, go to bed, wake up at 6am, have 200 calories of heavy whipping cream, and I am good til about 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
This is my eating pattern, and this is the methodology behind keto/lchf. If I have no desire to eat Anything, I have no overeating challenges. And its not an eating disorder...I eat like a slob at night.
What are you trying to say here?
I can't feel full because I don't wait 8-16 hours between meals?
No, what I mean is that I see tons of threads about how people have reached their calorie allowance by 3 or 4 pm, with 5 or 6 hours to go and come on the threads looking for advice. I dont have this issue. Most days, I dont have the opportunity to overeat. I am not saying that anyone who has carbs doesnt feel full. You said that. I am just saying that I can operate all day on just a few hundred calories of fat in the morning, whereas -most- people will have to eat something to sustain. That is all I am getting at.
But this is the same for any diet.
There are LCers who do have the opportunity to overeat. Who don't feel full.
There are plenty of non LCers who feel full.
It's not black and white.
0 -
Dunno.
Some people also believe that Jesus dude was sent to Earth to redeem original sin but I'll be damned if I can understand that one either.
We are emotional, pattern seeking mammals and we are difficult to reason with. Faith and belief are usually much stronger forces than logic. If someone is happy doing what they are doing and they are not harming themselves or others I will probably support them. I have grown far more interested in psychological / behavioural approaches than strict physiology.
If they start evangelising however...0 -
Isn't telling someone they're unnecessary helping them?
No, it usually isn't. If they specifically want help doing something liek setting macros or a recipe or whatever then saying "I wouldn't start from here" probably isn't helping them, as can be judged from their reaction.
We even had a TV character whose reply to everything was "you don't want to be doing that" aka The Know-it-all guy.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked.
OK, your selective vision makes discussion pointless. Perhaps this is the underlying problem, some don't see a request for help as such but merely as an opportunity to have a go at their choices. When they or others say "don't do that, do this" they later say that nobody ever says that, etc.0 -
+10 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked.
OK, your selective vision makes discussion pointless. Perhaps this is the underlying problem, some don't see a request for help as such but merely as an opportunity to have a go at their choices. When they or others say "don't do that, do this" they later say that nobody ever says that, etc.
My selective vision, or maybe I just haven't seen as many threads as you. No need to be so insulting. I've never personally seen anyone ask HOW to eat low carb. I've seen people say they were thinking of eating low carb and asking if anyone else ever did it.
0 -
most of the time when I am talking calories macros/micro goals always seem to come up ….
yes that's true you generally do and I note that you restrict carbohydrate intake as well from your diary.
There are indeed many people that focus on calories while paying attention to nutrition, even if not explicitly mentioned, there are also those who speak / write as if the human body is an engine or reactor and that the composition of the input and the quality of the outcome are not factors to consider. I quoted an example.
200 grams a day (35%) is restricting carbs…really???0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Knowing that calories are what matter for weight loss is step one. Figuring out how to eat an appropriate number of calories in a way that makes you satisfied is step two.
That's what worked for you. And it works for others, as well. But for many, many others, that path will not work. Not because they're special snowflakes that violate the laws of physics, but because that's not how they go about things.
As but one example, many need to get hold of the choices they make eating (ie, restrict some/many foods) *before* they start thinking about calories or (or, god forbid, logging).
So great - offer this as the path you walked and succeeded on - nothing wrong with that. But writing tl;dr polemnics about what "is" step one and what "is" step two isn't going to help much, and it will, in reality, send a lot of struggling people down the wrong path, if they listen to it.
I'm *sure* your intentions are awesomely positive, but knowingly or not, you are in effect trying to put people in your particular box. The advice may be consistent with the theory of CICO - but people don't live inside theoretical constructs.
Wut? You're just arguing for the sake of it.
thats par for the course0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »
I think that the problem with many people is that they are basically uneducated, so they should not only learn how to lose weight, but also how to eat healthily.lemurcat12 wrote: »Why overwhelm them, especially when it does not actually matter for weight loss?
How to not overwhelm them? I don't know, maybe just a link to choosemyplate.gov ?
Yes, I think that's a decent place to start. One reason I liked both the books I mentioned is that they agreed with me that nutrition really isn't as complicated as those of us interested in it like to make it. People aren't so ignorant they don't know what common sense is (eat some protein, eat some veggies, don't eat some huge percentage of your calories from cookies on a regular basis). As Fitzgerald said, the basics, which are what matter, are generally all things we knew as first graders.
IMO, getting obsessed with the small stuff (or making it all or nothing) is really because people don't want to do what they know they should--eating a balanced meal is boring, they don't like veggies, they are used to being able to eat whatever looks good in the moment. It's not really because there's a bunch of complex knowledge they don't know or secrets to learn. I think there's a view by some that there's an easier way than just eating balanced meals if they can only figure it out (the whole "hacks" thing) and by others that something so simple can't possibly work, but I think focusing on all that puts off the common sense approach--look at your diet and see how you can improve it and cut calories.
I've yet to run into someone on MFP who could not do that, if being honest with themselves. (Of course, having the knowledge to do it and being ready are different things.) But I am totally in favor of sharing links to nutrition information and what worked for us. I don't think it's helpful to tell newbies they must read studies about the benefits of 6 vs. 3 meals or breakfast or that they must cut added sugar or learn what gluten is, etc., however.0 -
Isn't telling someone they're unnecessary helping them?mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
Is it helping people who ask about taking up running to tell them that running is unnecessary? Because it is, but it would be generally viewed as trollish to go into all the running threads and tell people not to bother.
Yes if their goal is to lift weights. Let me expand people come to a thread start going on about losing weight and the need not to eat sugar/carbs to lose weight. So telling them it's unnecessary is good solid advice. As their goal is to lose weight.
Context is Everything. That's the problem with these arguments people don't put it into context0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked. I think most people who come on wanting to cut carbs know how to do it already.
It gets refuted when people think they HAVE to do it lose weight. They're not universally told that it's all wrong, and most of the non-low carbers in this thread tell them to give it a try, and if it works, great, if it doesn't there are other options. They are always advised that the idea is to find a sustainable way of eating is best.
The thing is, you're always going to have outliers on the forums who advise in the extreme. That can't be helped.
Lol, that's not what happens, though. What often happens is a 10-page thread of pictures of donuts and cheesecake.
thats because the "sugar/carbs are bad" threads go off the rails by page four ...0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Knowing that calories are what matter for weight loss is step one. Figuring out how to eat an appropriate number of calories in a way that makes you satisfied is step two.
That's what worked for you. And it works for others, as well. But for many, many others, that path will not work. Not because they're special snowflakes that violate the laws of physics, but because that's not how they go about things.
I'm not pushing a particular path. I'm saying it's imperative to tell people the truth. Not some myth that makes them more likely to do what YOU think is in their best interest, as some seem to want to do, but the truth. Then they, as adults, can figure out what to do with that, based on what worked for lots of other people (lots of different things, of course), if they choose to listen to that, or based on what kind of diet feels like it might work for them.
I've mentioned before that I know a woman who lost a ton of weight basically eating all of her meals from fast food places. She liked them and wanted to keep going to them and just started reducing portion size and then she altered what she ordered and only after she'd lost a bunch did she start actually cooking and changing her diet more. I thought that was crazy at the time (I was in my whole foods phase even more than now), and it is not something that would have worked for me, but she thought it would work for her based on her knowledge of herself and she was right. And even though she did it "wrong" according to many here, she ended up eating a much more healthy diet and losing 100 lbs or so. The point I'm trying to make is not that it matters how you do it--I like the whole foods/nutrition approach, others like the LCHF approach, others like the "just eat less of my same foods" approach, so on. It's that truthful information and getting rid of the fears and emotions and myths is always a good thing. People shouldn't approach weight loss as if it required gnosis.As but one example, many need to get hold of the choices they make eating (ie, restrict some/many foods) *before* they start thinking about calories or (or, god forbid, logging).
Someone who is a newbie at MFP has generally made the decision to log, and one of the huge benefits of logging is that it lets you understand what you are eating.
I'm not saying someone must count calories. I'm saying someone should understand how it works in reality, and not buy into crazy ideas like you have to eat a specific diet to lose. I find it hard to understand how people actually think that some foods are like fat pills--one bite and you can't lose, no matter what--but some clearly do, and having an illogical (ignorant) view does not help them.
If they then say "I can't deal with counting, I think I will be cutting calories if I cut out sweets," that's consistent with the advice I offered (although not my personal approach).0 -
flimflamfloz wrote: »
Here is a link to some articles I just found:1. they were not calorie restricting (however they were losing weight)
2. if they ate 1200 calories of a regular diet of say 30% carbs they did not lose, but when they ate a 1200 calories "low carb" diet they lost weight.
3. throughout the course of the thread others came in and made the argument that CICO did not apply when was going low carb.
http://authoritynutrition.com/randomized-controlled-trials-in-nutrition/
I picked one randomly and read the "results" of the experiment:
Efficacy and Safety of a High Protein, Low Carbohydrate Diet for Weight Loss in Severely Obese Adolescents
"Weight outcomes included both the change in BMI-Z over time and the absolute weight loss over time. The mean BMI-Z for the subjects in the HPLC (High Protein Low Carbs) group was significantly lower at 13 weeks (Table I), and the decrease was significantly greater than that for the LF (Low Fat) group (p=0.03, Figure). Both groups maintained significant reductions in BMI-Z at the follow-up time points: -0.21±0.07 (p=0.01) and -0.14±0.04 (p=0.01) for HPLC (n=13) and LF (n=14), respectively at 24 weeks; and -0.22±0.09 (p=0.04) and -0.15±0.04 (p=0.002), for HPLC (n=11) and LF (n=11), respectively, at 36 weeks (Figure). Thirty percent of the subjects lost at least 10% of their baseline weight, and 24% lost between 5 and 10% of baseline weight; neither of these weight loss categories differed by group. By the 24 week follow-up point, the HPLC group weight loss compared with baseline (-6.31 kg) was still significant (p = 0.01), whereas that of the LF group (-1.41 kg) was no longer significantly different from baseline. At the 36 week follow-up point, although both groups' weight was lower than baseline, the difference was not significant for either group or between groups."
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892194/
Now assuming the study is correct, it would say that CICO does not necessarily apply *strictly*, as the study showed us that HPLC =/= LF for example (of course CICO applies though, otherwise you could eat an infinite quantity of proteins/fat, as long as you're going low fat - which is not even realistic).
So there are differences between a HPLC diet and a LF diet, so that would mean you could technically eat more (more calories) with the HPLC diet and achieve the same as the LF diet.
Also, with higher proteins, I have generally experienced a better sensation of fullness personally, so if it applies to others, it might be easier to be stricter about the diet and not eat/cheat as much.
The question "why do you think this is?" is a bit unfair to the low carbers, since nutrition is a relatively new field of study and there are still many things about our bodies we do not know.if you really believe that CICO does not apply, then I would be curious as to why you think this…
There is a lot of *kitten* going around though, I give you that (precisely because we have still little in the way of explanations).
Often we can only observe the results of experiments, see what works or has worked for others and make up our own theories if we care or simply try to see if it works for ourselves.
Same goes about bodybuilding and what people think works/doesn't work.
I'm not a low carber myself, but tried if a few times for short periods of time - this has been my experience too, and why I only used it a couple of times to shake my diet around and stop a plateau.I actually tried low carb and it was not for me. My energy in the gym was non-existent and i would end up binging on whatever carbs I had in the house.
to the study you posted - did they only measure BMI? I always consider BMI a garbage stat because it does not account for muscle mass. My BMI is in the obese to overweight range and right now I am like 181 pounds with about 14% body fat….so I would be wary if that was their primary measurer between groups…
but thanks for posting that is interesting…
there was one a few pages back showing no difference…so it seems to me that the studies are conflicted on this...0 -
Seems that several people that don't eat lower carb see threads that they believe it is implied sugar is the devil when it's just asking about low carb eating. That is seen in this very thread....mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
I think you're overstating the incidence of the "only calories matter" advice happening, particularly in the context of it happening in vacuum.
This is possible, it's also possible you're understating it. We see confirmation bias wherever we recognise it. It didn't take me long to find one to quote, that's for sure. Perhaps I should count them.
It would be nice if someone asking for advice on how to do a low carb diet or reduce their sugar intake could be helped rather than told it's unnecessary or they're doing it all wrong, don't you think ?
That's not really a question that needs answering, since it never gets asked. I think most people who come on wanting to cut carbs know how to do it already.
It gets refuted when people think they HAVE to do it lose weight. They're not universally told that it's all wrong, and most of the non-low carbers in this thread tell them to give it a try, and if it works, great, if it doesn't there are other options. They are always advised that the idea is to find a sustainable way of eating is best.
The thing is, you're always going to have outliers on the forums who advise in the extreme. That can't be helped.
Lol, that's not what happens, though. What often happens is a 10-page thread of pictures of donuts and cheesecake.
thats because the "sugar/carbs are bad" threads go off the rails by page four ...
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.5K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 391 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 926 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions