Can I petition MFP users to use the terms "more ideal" and "less ideal" instead of good/bad foods?
Replies
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
Sorry, here is the response
A race car will run on gas from the convenient store, but not very well. Runs much better on racing fuel. Why fill your extra calories with junk when good, nutritionally dense food is available? Maybe a bit here and there, but not on a daily basis.
I will use your same analogy. What happens when the race car's fuel tank is full of racing fuel? Any extra racing fuel is wasted.
For that analogy to hold, someone would have to be running a smaller-than-optimal deficit.
IE, over-eating for their goals.
Not necessarily. 2 cups of spinach will provide you with more than half of your daily needs of 90% of vitamins and minerals for 80 calories.0 -
I wonder if packer john is somebody's Silence Dogwood.0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
Sorry, here is the response
A race car will run on gas from the convenient store, but not very well. Runs much better on racing fuel. Why fill your extra calories with junk when good, nutritionally dense food is available? Maybe a bit here and there, but not on a daily basis.
I will use your same analogy. What happens when the race car's fuel tank is full of racing fuel? Any extra racing fuel is wasted.
For that analogy to hold, someone would have to be running a smaller-than-optimal deficit.
IE, over-eating for their goals.
Not necessarily. 2 cups of spinach will provide you with more than half of your daily needs of 90% of vitamins and minerals for 80 calories.
That doesn't contradict my earlier statement in any way.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
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Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
In extreme cases you don't just get expensive pee. An extreme case that likes to get mentioned in a different place would be of some idiot who took way too much micronutrient supplements and ended up with kidney failure because of it.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
In extreme cases you don't just get expensive pee. An extreme case that likes to get mentioned in a different place would be of some idiot who took way too much micronutrient supplements and ended up with kidney failure because of it.
Also true. It's almost like context and dosage matters or something.
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Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Acknowledge that nutritionally sparse foods are crappy for you and if they are used, they should be seldom used, not as a way to fill in daily calorie needs.
Why are they crappy for me? I simply think that's false. Should they replace foods that will fulfill your nutritional needs? Of course not, but no one is saying otherwise. Most people have room in their diets for both more and less nutritionally dense foods, however, and diversity is also important. (Cheese isn't that nutritionally dense, but having some fat and protein isn't a bad thing and many find it filling. I just find it really tasty. So I eat it, although somewhat sparingly.)
Sorry, here is the response
A race car will run on gas from the convenient store, but not very well. Runs much better on racing fuel. Why fill your extra calories with junk when good, nutritionally dense food is available? Maybe a bit here and there, but not on a daily basis.
If eat a well rounded diet that allows you to meet your nutritional requirements and have some discretionary calories left do you get extra credit for going above and beyond your requirements? Do you get extra healthy? If you fill those discretionary calories with something different did that now undo the nutritional markers you hit for for the day?
What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
I'm 125 and regularly get around or more than 125 grams of protein. I don't have a problem with that, but the idea that that's not enough so that I perhaps should avoid a piece of pizza or 2 (by the way, there are pizzas that aren't from chain restaurants before you make assumptions about the ingredients in it or how many calories it has or whatever you might assume based on some particular pizza) or, again, my apple pie in favor of some chicken breast seems silly.
And for that matter I can get more protein per gram from skinless, boneless chicken breast than the roasted, skin-on whole chicken I prefer. Does that make the latter "crap" because more calories and less of certain kinds of nutrients than the alternatives? This seems pretty arbitrary. So long as I have room without sacrificing any needed nutrients or gaining weight when I shouldn't, and so long as it's not actively harming my health for some reason (some ingredient that I have good reason to think is bad for humans or for me specifically), why conclude it's "bad" or "bad for me." Again, that something would be bad in larger quantities doesn't make it "bad" in general. Cheese would be terrible as a staple of one's diet, IMO, but I don't think it's bad at all in reasonable quantities (which will depend on the person and the overall diet).0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:
Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients
Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.
The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.
"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.
Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight
Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.
Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.0 -
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Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:
Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients
Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.
The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.
"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.
Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight
Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.
Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.
"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.
I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.
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Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD.
[. . . snip . . .]
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Kinda funny that you chose that part of my response in response to Packerjohn's link about weight gain, but yes, if you need to be right, for the people who are very overweight, losing weight is of more importance than many other things.
I will go out on a limb, though, and guess that full on restriction to only foods that are necessary for many of those with lots of weight to lose may hinder diet adherence, and since losing weight is of the utmost importance, maybe eating that donut is a good idea.
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In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
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So Packerjohn, what do you define as an "occasion"? Is a birthday okay to have cake? Can I eat a piece of cheesy bread on my anniversary? Are wings okay to eat for the Super Bowl/World Cup? Am I no longer allowed to have dessert after lunch and supper?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?amusedmonkey wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
Sorry, here is the response
A race car will run on gas from the convenient store, but not very well. Runs much better on racing fuel. Why fill your extra calories with junk when good, nutritionally dense food is available? Maybe a bit here and there, but not on a daily basis.
I will use your same analogy. What happens when the race car's fuel tank is full of racing fuel? Any extra racing fuel is wasted. Most water soluble micronutrients are wasted in excess, and fat soluble ones can build up to amounts that aren't necessary and in some cases dangerous. By your same analogy, you are advocating that if you have extra money in your car's budget it's better to spend it on on more fuel, even if it goes down the drain rather than give your race car a fresh coat of trendy decoration because decoration is "not important to the function of the car", totally disregarding the psychological and social factors of it.
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How does a multi vitamin factor in?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
There's the expensive pee!0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
My husband and I run half marathons with semi-frequency. If I was to only eat nutrient-dense foods, well, 500 calories of broccoli, which is my favorite vegetable, might be on the table. If I was going down that route, I think I'd try to break it up and not have the 500 calories all at once, but I don't really like eating a food until I hate it in a day.
It's also a reason that raw veganism would never work for me.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
If people really ate like all the foods that are claimed to be "bad" were bad, this would be the scenario:
Finished with my three satisfying meals, as well as the banana and bit of leftover chicken breast I ate as my post-workout snack and have, say, 350 calories left (perhaps much more depending on activity and how restrictive you are in the "no bad food" thing). Wonder what to eat. Remember that cheese and ice cream are out, because, well "bad," so decide to prepare some more fish and broccoli. Yippee! Not because there's anything wrong with fish and broccoli, which I quite like, but because I probably had all I wanted at an earlier meal.
Personally, I also try to eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, have plenty of failures due to life, and if I plan well don't end up with 500+ calories normally anyway. But the idea that saving 200 calories for ice cream or that an excess of calories must be filled with meat (or lentils for the vegetarians) and veggies or whatever the most nutrient dense thing in your frig is, seems bizarre.
Not to mention that this whole eat the MOST nutrient dense food possible is a weird way to look at food. For example, am I shortchanging myself by (when I'm eating meat, anyway) varying my diet and eating lamb and pork and beef as well as chicken and turkey and fish? Should I eat only salmon, since more omega-3s than cod? Or less salmon, because too many calories for the nutrients? Should I never ever eat pork shoulder (which made for some delightful lunches combined with veggies after I slow cooked some), since clearly the fat to protein ratio is far from that of chicken?
But I don't know why I'm arguing, as if you'd have the cobbler sometimes (or a glass of wine) you are already picking the "bad" food on occasion over the more nutrient dense food, whatever that is.
The point is that if I'm eating a generally nutrient dense diet, why is it going to matter for my health and well being if I fit in another 50-200 calories of protein (which one can be too high on, and I don't think I need more of) or veggies (which I never limit anyway--I've never heard of anyone cutting veggies to make calories to fit in other things, as they don't have that many calories anyway) or fruit or nuts (which are great, but I'm not always in the mood) vs. maybe something that I love and will enjoy that isn't especially nutrient dense? But, no, I've been told that my apple pie is "crap," so that's simply ALWAYS a bad choice.
Personally, I think having such an attitude about food would make me neurotic and likely less able to eat well overall.
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Again, take my pizza dinner yesterday. I thought I was being responsible by eating plenty of protein before dinner and by choosing a pizza with some veggies on it (also it sounded good) and eating it with a good salad with a variety of healthy greens and other ingredients. I also watched portion size and didn't have a dessert, not that I want any prizes for that. But some here would say pizza is simply BAD, so I really should have ignored the fact that the restaurant I was at had good pizza I'd been looking forward to and ordered some fish and veggies, no butter, or some such.
You can say that just because they call it bad doesn't mean they don't eat it, but why on earth would it be better in any way (or even accurate) for me to think of the pizza as "bad" when ordering it. If I really did think it was bad, I couldn't enjoyably order it, so luckily I see it as a mixture of tasty ingredients, some nutrient dense, some not so much. But overall nothing about it was inconsistent with fitting into an overall healthy diet.0 -
This content has been removed.
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To me a warm home made cobbler ISNT a "bad" food.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
If people really ate like all the foods that are claimed to be "bad" were bad, this would be the scenario:
Finished with my three satisfying meals, as well as the banana and bit of leftover chicken breast I ate as my post-workout snack and have, say, 350 calories left (perhaps much more depending on activity and how restrictive you are in the "no bad food" thing). Wonder what to eat. Remember that cheese and ice cream are out, because, well "bad," so decide to prepare some more fish and broccoli. Yippee! Not because there's anything wrong with fish and broccoli, which I quite like, but because I probably had all I wanted at an earlier meal.
Personally, I also try to eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, have plenty of failures due to life, and if I plan well don't end up with 500+ calories normally anyway. But the idea that saving 200 calories for ice cream or that an excess of calories must be filled with meat (or lentils for the vegetarians) and veggies or whatever the most nutrient dense thing in your frig is, seems bizarre.
Not to mention that this whole eat the MOST nutrient dense food possible is a weird way to look at food. For example, am I shortchanging myself by (when I'm eating meat, anyway) varying my diet and eating lamb and pork and beef as well as chicken and turkey and fish? Should I eat only salmon, since more omega-3s than cod? Or less salmon, because too many calories for the nutrients? Should I never ever eat pork shoulder (which made for some delightful lunches combined with veggies after I slow cooked some), since clearly the fat to protein ratio is far from that of chicken?
But I don't know why I'm arguing, as if you'd have the cobbler sometimes (or a glass of wine) you are already picking the "bad" food on occasion over the more nutrient dense food, whatever that is.
The point is that if I'm eating a generally nutrient dense diet, why is it going to matter for my health and well being if I fit in another 50-200 calories of protein (which one can be too high on, and I don't think I need more of) or veggies (which I never limit anyway--I've never heard of anyone cutting veggies to make calories to fit in other things, as they don't have that many calories anyway) or fruit or nuts (which are great, but I'm not always in the mood) vs. maybe something that I love and will enjoy that isn't especially nutrient dense? But, no, I've been told that my apple pie is "crap," so that's simply ALWAYS a bad choice.
Personally, I think having such an attitude about food would make me neurotic and likely less able to eat well overall.
Nor do I think a nice home made apple pie is a "bad" food.
Nor do I think a nice glass of chardonnay is a "bad" food.
Fruit seems like a great choice to me.
And I have treats every day, in fact.
IF you're eating a generally nutrient dense diet, it's probably not going to matter if you chose something less nutrient dense for the last 50-200 calories. No. That's never really been my argument.
And in fact, not that you care, I have no doubt you're eating really healthfully.
but, btw, two days ago I read someone on here saying they cut vegetables to make room in their calories for more protein and sweets.
And yes, one of our most prolific posters eats virtually NO plant foods save the occasional potatoes.
Your fish and veggies comment doesn't really get at what I was saying, but that's okay.
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I suppose it can't hurt to take a multi, no.
Well I wouldn't say it's that expensive. I purchased 2 bottles of 90 pill for 8.99. Buy 1 get 1. So if I factor in my multi vitamin then meeting those Mico and vitamin requirements is much more likely no?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
How does a multi vitamin factor in?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
In what reality would you "choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli"?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
As for the "extra credit" nonsense. Nope. I don't buy it. I feel like I eat a nutrient dense diet most of the time, does that mean anything delicious and healthful that I eat would be "extra"? I very much doubt I'm "over" on all my micros. I doubt any of us is.
That said, if I had 500 calories left, and felt that I'd had a nice nutrient dense day, a nice warm fruit cobbler with real whipped cream would be lovely.
I don't see a lot of diaries, even the regulars who repeatedly declare they've got it all covered, where I'd be feeling like they'd be peeing out lots of nutrients. Some haven't had a plant food other than a potato here and there for weeks and weeks.
We should all strive for balance. But we all need to know what that actually looks like for ourselves.
I know that when life gets in the way I don't short cut with broccoli and salads, so I try to consciously eat as healthfully as I can. I know short cutting, PMS, and life's obstacles take care of much of the rest.
There's the expensive pee!
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Again, take my pizza dinner yesterday. I thought I was being responsible by eating plenty of protein before dinner and by choosing a pizza with some veggies on it (also it sounded good) and eating it with a good salad with a variety of healthy greens and other ingredients. I also watched portion size and didn't have a dessert, not that I want any prizes for that. But some here would say pizza is simply BAD, so I really should have ignored the fact that the restaurant I was at had good pizza I'd been looking forward to and ordered some fish and veggies, no butter, or some such.
You can say that just because they call it bad doesn't mean they don't eat it, but why on earth would it be better in any way (or even accurate) for me to think of the pizza as "bad" when ordering it. If I really did think it was bad, I couldn't enjoyably order it, so luckily I see it as a mixture of tasty ingredients, some nutrient dense, some not so much. But overall nothing about it was inconsistent with fitting into an overall healthy diet.
I had a lovely meal on thursday with hubs: we shared a large greek salad, and a well made pizza. We have a favorite wood oven pizza place that gets the freshest tasting ingredients. I just love it.
oh, and I had two glasses of sauvignon blanc.
All part of a healthy day.0 -
You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:
Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients
Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.
The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.
"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.
Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight
Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.
Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.
"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.
I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.
"Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research"
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This content has been removed.
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So Packerjohn, what do you define as an "occasion"? Is a birthday okay to have cake? Can I eat a piece of cheesy bread on my anniversary? Are wings okay to eat for the Super Bowl/World Cup? Am I no longer allowed to have dessert after lunch and supper?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?amusedmonkey wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
I'd say a family birthday is fine to have cake, not when everyone at work brings something in for a birthday on an every other day basis. Wings at a Superbowl party sure, not every Sunday, Monday and Thursday during the NFL season. Dessert once or twice a week not after 2 out of 3 meals a day.
Just my opinion.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
So Packerjohn, what do you define as an "occasion"? Is a birthday okay to have cake? Can I eat a piece of cheesy bread on my anniversary? Are wings okay to eat for the Super Bowl/World Cup? Am I no longer allowed to have dessert after lunch and supper?Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?amusedmonkey wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »
I'd say a family birthday is fine to have cake, not when everyone at work brings something in for a birthday on an every other day basis. Wings at a Superbowl party sure, not every Sunday, Monday and Thursday during the NFL season. Dessert once or twice a week not after 2 out of 3 meals a day.
Just my opinion.
Why not dessert every day? What's bad about it? Feel free to check my diary and have a go.
Quotes are so borked on this post.
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Packerjohn wrote: »
You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html
I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.
You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.
Edited to fix quotes as best I can.
Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?
It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.
I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.
Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:
Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients
Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.
The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.
"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.
Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight
Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.
Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.
"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.
I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.
Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?
See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. In fact I would venture and say that my chocolate, cookies, cake..etc were extremely good for me because had I tried to cut them out I wouldn't have succeeded at losing weight due to feeling deprived. I'm nearly 100 pounds lighter, blood sugar 40 points lower and I'm no longer hyperlipidemic.0
This discussion has been closed.
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