Can I petition MFP users to use the terms "more ideal" and "less ideal" instead of good/bad foods?
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »To me a warm home made cobbler ISNT a "bad" food.
Nor do I think a nice home made apple pie is a "bad" food.
Nor do I think a nice glass of chardonnay is a "bad" food.
Fruit seems like a great choice to me.
And I have treats every day, in fact.
I agree with all this. I'm not the one who insisted that my apple pie was BAD or "crap."IF you're eating a generally nutrient dense diet, it's probably not going to matter if you chose something less nutrient dense for the last 50-200 calories. No. That's never really been my argument.
And in fact, not that you care, I have no doubt you're eating really healthfully.
but, btw, two days ago I read someone on here saying they cut vegetables to make room in their calories for more protein and sweets.
And yes, one of our most prolific posters eats virtually NO plant foods save the occasional potatoes.
Your fish and veggies comment doesn't really get at what I was saying, but that's okay.
Well, it seems to me like you are basically agreeing with me (or, more accurately, that we aren't so far apart on this issue). But if we are only to eat nutrient dense foods with excess calories--as was asserted, though not by you, but that is what the "no extra credit" bit was in response to--then it seems that fish and veggies would be what I'm supposed to have as a treat if I want a little something after dinner.
One other point is that it's not like we can rank foods from best to worse--they all bring something different to the table. Some claim that there's a benefit to eating quicker carbs after a heavy workout (with some protein), so I'm trying to experiment with that now (and having trouble with my own prior prejudice that slow carbs and fiber and eating carbs with fat are always better). I may or may not decide that this is something of value, but stuff like that seems to call a lot of the X=good, Y=bad stuff into question.
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Indeed, no reason to argue.lemurcat12 wrote: »But I don't know why I'm arguing,
As for me, I have some sort of dessert every night.
Usually it is fruit salad with yogurt and cinnamon, or a banana "ice cream" with some nuts and melted high percentage chocolate or fruit gelatin with yogurt, or simply some squares of high percentage chocolate. Occasionally, I have also some "less healthy" treats.
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Well, there's always the age-old "muscle weighs more than fat debate," or we could go back to people who don't know the difference between "lose" and "loose."
dunno. but I'm running out of popcorn for watching that other thread.
It's all a philosophical battle over whether "we'd" like someone to think exclusionary about food or inclusionary...
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Regardless of how you refer to your food it's either clean and healthy or it isn't. We all eat from both sides. Kind of a silly post IMO.0
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simplydelish2 wrote: »Regardless of how you refer to your food it's either clean and healthy or it isn't. We all eat from both sides. Kind of a silly post IMO.
Exactly. The only difference is that one group enjoys every bite of it guilt free while people in the other group feel like they are "eating crap".0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Exactly. The only difference is that one group enjoys every bite of it guilt free while people in the other group feel like they are "eating crap".
If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.0 -
I checked with my food, none of it is offended by any terms used to describe it & it promised it's feelings won't get hurt..........I checked with my food, none of it is offended by any terms used to describe it & it promised it's feelings won't get hurt..........
That made me chuckle.
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Packerjohn wrote: »You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.
"Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.
"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research"
I actually specifically addressed that part. I also have already noted the "weight gain" part and also specifically addressed that in my previous response, but hey. It's all good. Maybe it will be more clear this time.
Bender, the registered dietitian, is saying that it's important to hit your nutrient goals while gaining weight, which basically excludes eating only cookies and ice cream all day every day. While you may be hitting your calorie goals, you may be missing something else. What Bender is saying is what everyone here is also saying: While gaining weight, don't ignore the importance of eating well.
I'm unsure how this translates into eat things like cookies to fill in your extra calories on a daily basis after you've taken care of your nutrition is against what Bender is saying. Some of the guys here bulk, that is, gain weight, on 2,500 or more calories a day. It is completely possible to hit your nutrient, both macro and micro, goals for the day and end up with some extra when this is what your working with. It is at this point that eating ice cream fits in, which is all anyone is saying.
Your argument makes quite a bit less sense in the case of gaining weight than losing weight because for a lot of people, it is much harder to fit in a daily treat on more restricted calories, but doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't, be done.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »
Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?
See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. In fact I would venture and say that my chocolate, cookies, cake..etc were extremely good for me because had I tried to cut them out I wouldn't have succeeded at losing weight due to feeling deprived. I'm nearly 100 pounds lighter, blood sugar 40 points lower and I'm no longer hyperlipidemic.
It's interesting because this back and forth seems to be about the definition of 80/20 - Is it a daily thing? Or an overall (think over an entire year) thing?
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If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.
I'm one of the people who could care less what my food is called, but I find the reasoning behind labeling foods as "junk", "crap", or "bad for you" peculiar. Some people find that condescending and probably why they get upset. I'm more interested in the psychological side of it - I mean it's very common to see threads with titles like "I messed up", "fell off the wagon", "how do I stop craving X", "I'm mad at myself"...etc0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Indeed, no reason to argue.
As for me, I have some sort of dessert every night.
Usually it is fruit salad with yogurt and cinnamon, or a banana "ice cream" with some nuts and melted high percentage chocolate or fruit gelatin with yogurt, or simply some squares of high percentage chocolate. Occasionally, I have also some "less healthy" treats.
That's nice.
You really shouldn't take one clause of a sentence out of context.0 -
Lettuce is a bad food.0
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If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.
The other thread was started to discuss whether it's helpful to call foods "bad." I don't think it is. (I gave what I thought were some good reasons in one of the two threads which--shock--no one bothered to address at all.) Therefore, it's fun to knock down the arguments as to why certain foods must be "bad." (I don't mind the term "junk food.")
I thought the premise of this thread was a joke, but could be wrong.0 -
Who said anything about dessert being 2 or 3 meals a day? You're arguing extremes for no reason.
How would you interpret this quote?
"Am I no longer allowed to have dessert after lunch and supper?"0 -
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amusedmonkey wrote: »
Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?
See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. .
I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.
What you fill your macro/micro requirements with already comes from nutrient dense foods. If the rest was made up of 80% nutrient dense food, you'd be at 96% nutrient dense food.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.
How many extra calories do you think we are talking about in this scenario?
What the article (not sure why you said it was peer reviewed) at WedMD said was that if you need to gain weight you aren't some special snowflake who should be eating just whatever, but should still try to eat an overall healthy diet, since micros and macros matter to overall health (which might affect how you gain). It said nothing about extra calories and making sure that 80% of those are nutrient dense foods.
Now, personally, I don't track to see if my micros are met, because then I'd have no life and would probably be officially orthorexic. Instead, I eat an overall balanced diet including lots of fruits and veggies (I try to get more than the recommended veggies in particular, because I enjoy eating that way, and I try to get a good variety, and particularly like to get some greens every day), my macros (and specifically enough protein, which currently for me means about 125 grams, or way more than any nutrition expert would say I need), adequate fiber (usually through fruits and veggies, but I do tend to favor beans when they fit into a meal and choose whole grains over refined grains more often than not--although I think the benefits of grains in general are exaggerated, so don't worry much about eating them), some foods providing fats like those in salmon and nuts and olive oil and avocado, other foods I like and think are good for me, like potatoes and sweet potatoes, so on. I think that given the limitations on access to food throughout much of human history and the diversity in possible healthy diets (if you look at traditional diets), this is probably sufficient to make sure I'm hitting my micros, barring some evidence of something lacking. (Most likely to be lacking, really, is Vit D.)
I do all this through eating 3 balanced meals and sometimes a post-workout snack. The post-workout snack will often relate to things I'm trying for athletic performance (currently introducing more quick carbs, if I don't like the results I'll change that) or staying satiated based on limited food on hand (I sometimes use foods like protein bars for this).
If after all of this I have calories left over (and I admit that when I have plenty of calories because I'm working out regularly and aiming to eat close to maintenance I will attempt to save a bit of room) I will add in some kind of food based solely on what I enjoy as a post dinner treat. This could be a pudding made of banana and coconut milk plus some tapioca, it could be a slice of apple pie (usually not available, sadly), it could be cheese, it could be nuts, it could be ice cream, if I'm short on protein, maybe a protein bar, who knows. I mostly go by what seems good, since I feel like I ate what I needed throughout the rest of the day.
Your insistence that this is an unhealthy thing to do and that BAD food is BAD seems to me to be bizarre. You have yet to provide any evidence that someone would be healthier eating only the banana pudding (should that strike you as nutrient dense enough, perhaps not), vs. the other things I've mentioned as possible treats.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
What you fill your macro/micro requirements with already comes from nutrient dense foods. If the rest was made up of 80% nutrient dense food, you'd be at 96% nutrient dense food.
And that would be a good thing.0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »
And that would be a good thing.
Care to open your diary so we can confirm that you eat 96% nutrient dense foods, and also understand what counts as "nutrient dense"?0 -
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
Care to open your diary so we can confirm that you eat 96% nutrient dense foods, and also understand what counts as "nutrient dense"?
I would like to see this too.0 -
@Packerjohn instead of avoiding the question why don't you scroll back and answer the question you were asked about your claims on cholesterol and blood pressure?
Nice article on foods contrubuting to high cholesterol:
http://www.healthy-eating-and-nutrition.com/high-cholesterol-foods.html
Same on foods contributing to high blood pressure:
http://www.minusbloodpressure.com/hypertension-diet/foods-that-causes-high-blood-pressure-5-major-foods-to-avoid/
You'll note many of these are considered "junk food"0 -
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Packerjohn wrote: »
And that would be a good thing.
And now we're back to 'you don't get extra credit for going over your daily nutritional requirements'.
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Well, if we are including eggs, I guess I eat a lot more junk food than I knew. Weird that my cholesterol is great and I've never had high blood pressure.
Oh, right, most people don't respond to dietary cholesterol.
Also, even setting aside the controversy over the saturated fat issue, DOSE is a key part of it, even for those who warn against it.0 -
I prefer calling it what it is. Not going to be a popular opinion, but most of us are here to lose weight, not sugar-coat things. Some food is straight-up bad for you, and you feeling less bad about eating it isn't going to help you at all.0
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That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?0
This discussion has been closed.
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