Can I petition MFP users to use the terms "more ideal" and "less ideal" instead of good/bad foods?

Gianfranco_R wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

But I don't know why I'm arguing,

Indeed, no reason to argue.
As for me, I have some sort of dessert every night.
Usually it is fruit salad with yogurt and cinnamon, or a banana "ice cream" with some nuts and melted high percentage chocolate or fruit gelatin with yogurt, or simply some squares of high percentage chocolate. Occasionally, I have also some "less healthy" treats.

That's nice.

You really shouldn't take one clause of a sentence out of context.

JPW1990 wrote: »

amusedmonkey wrote: »

simplydelish2 wrote: »

Regardless of how you refer to your food it's either clean and healthy or it isn't. We all eat from both sides. Kind of a silly post IMO.

Exactly. The only difference is that one group enjoys every bite of it guilt free while people in the other group feel like they are "eating crap".

If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.

The other thread was started to discuss whether it's helpful to call foods "bad." I don't think it is. (I gave what I thought were some good reasons in one of the two threads which--shock--no one bothered to address at all.) Therefore, it's fun to knock down the arguments as to why certain foods must be "bad." (I don't mind the term "junk food.")

I thought the premise of this thread was a joke, but could be wrong.

amusedmonkey wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html

I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.

You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.

Edited to fix quotes as best I can.

Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?

It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.

I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.

Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:

Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients

Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.

"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.

The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.

"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.

Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight

Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.

Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.

"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.

I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.

You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.

Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?

See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. .

I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.

Packerjohn wrote: »

amusedmonkey wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html

I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.

You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.

Edited to fix quotes as best I can.

Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?

It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.

I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.

Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:

Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients

Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.

"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.

The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.

"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.

Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight

Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.

Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.

"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.

I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.

You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.

Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?

See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. .

I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.

How many extra calories do you think we are talking about in this scenario?

What the article (not sure why you said it was peer reviewed) at WedMD said was that if you need to gain weight you aren't some special snowflake who should be eating just whatever, but should still try to eat an overall healthy diet, since micros and macros matter to overall health (which might affect how you gain). It said nothing about extra calories and making sure that 80% of those are nutrient dense foods.

Now, personally, I don't track to see if my micros are met, because then I'd have no life and would probably be officially orthorexic. Instead, I eat an overall balanced diet including lots of fruits and veggies (I try to get more than the recommended veggies in particular, because I enjoy eating that way, and I try to get a good variety, and particularly like to get some greens every day), my macros (and specifically enough protein, which currently for me means about 125 grams, or way more than any nutrition expert would say I need), adequate fiber (usually through fruits and veggies, but I do tend to favor beans when they fit into a meal and choose whole grains over refined grains more often than not--although I think the benefits of grains in general are exaggerated, so don't worry much about eating them), some foods providing fats like those in salmon and nuts and olive oil and avocado, other foods I like and think are good for me, like potatoes and sweet potatoes, so on. I think that given the limitations on access to food throughout much of human history and the diversity in possible healthy diets (if you look at traditional diets), this is probably sufficient to make sure I'm hitting my micros, barring some evidence of something lacking. (Most likely to be lacking, really, is Vit D.)

I do all this through eating 3 balanced meals and sometimes a post-workout snack. The post-workout snack will often relate to things I'm trying for athletic performance (currently introducing more quick carbs, if I don't like the results I'll change that) or staying satiated based on limited food on hand (I sometimes use foods like protein bars for this).

If after all of this I have calories left over (and I admit that when I have plenty of calories because I'm working out regularly and aiming to eat close to maintenance I will attempt to save a bit of room) I will add in some kind of food based solely on what I enjoy as a post dinner treat. This could be a pudding made of banana and coconut milk plus some tapioca, it could be a slice of apple pie (usually not available, sadly), it could be cheese, it could be nuts, it could be ice cream, if I'm short on protein, maybe a protein bar, who knows. I mostly go by what seems good, since I feel like I ate what I needed throughout the rest of the day.

Your insistence that this is an unhealthy thing to do and that BAD food is BAD seems to me to be bizarre. You have yet to provide any evidence that someone would be healthier eating only the banana pudding (should that strike you as nutrient dense enough, perhaps not), vs. the other things I've mentioned as possible treats.

Packerjohn wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

amusedmonkey wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

snikkins wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

What are you calling "requirements"? The CDC says men should get 56g of protein a day
http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html

I think if you talk to most people that lift weights or train people that lift they will recommend more protein. I would suggest that eating protein with the "extra" calories would make you healthier than filling in the calories with Ding Dongs, Cheetos, etc.

You're making the assumption that macro and micro goals aren't met first, but that isn't what's being advocated. What is being said is once your macro and micro goals are met then eat ice cream, Oreos, etc.

Edited to fix quotes as best I can.

Say you meet your macro and micro goals daily and have 500 calories "left over". If you go to a nutrition expert and ask them the best way to fill in the additional calories do you think they will say Ding Dongs, ice cream, etc on a daily basis. Or do you think they will say eat a bit more of the nutritionally dense foods you are eating and occasionally have a treat?

It's already been said, but you don't get extra credit in nutrition. You can end up with really expensive pee, though.

I can't imagine trying to choke down 500 or more calories of broccoli instead of some ice cream or cookies after macros and micros are met, so I don't. And, mind-blowingly, sometimes I use donuts or ice cream to hit my fat macro if that's what I'm low on for the day.

Not according to this peer reviewed article on WedMD. Article is specifically talking about gaining weight, but it is telling you how to "fill in" to get to your calorie goal:

Calories Count, But So Do Nutrients

Focus on healthy foods to gain weight, because even though you have more leeway with calories, good nutrition still rules.

"Weight gain requires eating calorie-rich but also nutrient-rich foods -- not just high-calorie foods with lots of fat, sugar, or empty calories," says Alice Bender, RD, nutrition communications manager for the American Institute for Cancer Research.

The goal is to choose foods that are packed with vitamins, minerals, nutrients, and calories so each bite is loaded with good nutrition.

"Start with nutritious foods and then wherever you can, enrich the foods with additional ingredients like yogurt, fruit, nuts, and healthy fats," Escott-Stump says.

Complete article:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/how-to-gain-weight

Again, an occasional few cookies, etc is fine, you shouldn't be using calorie dense nutrient light foods to fill a surplus calorie need after getting your macros.

Filling surplus calories with nutritionally poor foods on a regular basis may not impact you weight, but can have negative impacts on blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.

"Not just" indicates that they are not advocating those who are trying to gain weight to eat solely those things, but instead focus on... wait, you guessed it... hitting their macro and micro goals for the day and then eating whatever. I'm sure it's very easy to be tempted to hear the words "bulk" or "gaining weight" and assume you can eat whatever you want, but this RD is saying no, eat your fruits and vegetables, too.

I'm not sure how this is saying anything different and in seriousness, have you ever done enough exercise where you end up with 1,000+ extra calories and tried to fill that with micro-nutrient dense foods? This is how we get the people who cannot eat 1,200 calories asking what they should do because you feel full.

You are not getting the part below. Note the article talks specifically about gaining weight. It is the same thing you want to do when you have excess calories after you meet your macro/micro goals. You should be focusing on nutrient rich foods most of the time if you have "surplus" calories. Does that say you can't have cookies, of course not. Just maybe fruit and yogurt for example to get you extra calories 80% of the time and cookies, cake, etc the other 20%.

Isn't that exactly what we've been saying all along? That most of the calories would come from highly nutritious foods and some of them can come from less nutritious foods?

See? There is barely any difference between your approach and mine. The only difference is in the mindset. While I do try to focus on nutritious foods (80% of that time as you would call it) I don't feel the other 20% is necessarily bad. .

I have gotten the idea from many of these posts that people are saying once you hit your macro/micro requirements you're good to fill any remaining calories with less nutrient dense foods i.e, crap exclusively. I say, and I think most nutrition authorities would tell you, the "extra" calories should come mostly (80/20, 75/25 whatever) from nutrient dense foods and the reminder from whatever. This does not have to be on a daily basis, but should be the case long term.

What you fill your macro/micro requirements with already comes from nutrient dense foods. If the rest was made up of 80% nutrient dense food, you'd be at 96% nutrient dense food.

And that would be a good thing.

Care to open your diary so we can confirm that you eat 96% nutrient dense foods, and also understand what counts as "nutrient dense"?

MrM27 wrote: »

@Packerjohn instead of avoiding the question why don't you scroll back and answer the question you were asked about your claims on cholesterol and blood pressure?

Nice article on foods contrubuting to high cholesterol:
http://www.healthy-eating-and-nutrition.com/high-cholesterol-foods.html

Same on foods contributing to high blood pressure:
http://www.minusbloodpressure.com/hypertension-diet/foods-that-causes-high-blood-pressure-5-major-foods-to-avoid/

You'll note many of these are considered "junk food"

Well, if we are including eggs, I guess I eat a lot more junk food than I knew. Weird that my cholesterol is great and I've never had high blood pressure.

Oh, right, most people don't respond to dietary cholesterol.

Also, even setting aside the controversy over the saturated fat issue, DOSE is a key part of it, even for those who warn against it.

That's the point--on what evidence is it bad for you, if not eaten in excess and as part of an overall balanced diet? People keep asserting that, but no one so far has come up with evidence. Why is a scoop of gelato or a slice of my homemade apple pie bad for me? Why was the donut I ate during my last century ride bad for me?

JPW1990 wrote: »

amusedmonkey wrote: »

simplydelish2 wrote: »

Regardless of how you refer to your food it's either clean and healthy or it isn't. We all eat from both sides. Kind of a silly post IMO.

Exactly. The only difference is that one group enjoys every bite of it guilt free while people in the other group feel like they are "eating crap".

If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.

I think at least some of them get upset because they know the foods really aren't healthy. And instead of just admitting that and deciding to ignore the risk and enjoy it or only have it once in a while to minimize the risk, they want to pretend junk is not junk. Other people pointing out that certain foods are actually unhealthy makes it harder for them to do that.

MoiAussi93 wrote: »

JPW1990 wrote: »

amusedmonkey wrote: »

simplydelish2 wrote: »

Regardless of how you refer to your food it's either clean and healthy or it isn't. We all eat from both sides. Kind of a silly post IMO.

Exactly. The only difference is that one group enjoys every bite of it guilt free while people in the other group feel like they are "eating crap".

If it's guilt free, why get so upset when someone else uses a word like bad or junk? The whole thing, between both threads, seems like a Twitter brigade having a hissy because someone said Harry Styles is ugly.

I think at least some of them get upset because they know the foods really aren't healthy. And instead of just admitting that and deciding to ignore the risk and enjoy it or only have it once in a while to minimize the risk, they want to pretend junk is not junk. Other people pointing out that certain foods are actually unhealthy makes it harder for them to do that.

Um, no.