(Why) are people really disappointed to hear they can eat anything they want and still lose weight?
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Sweets1954 wrote: »Too many people are still using the "diet" mentality.
I agree with this statement. A lot. People think that a diet is something you go "on" then "off".
If you never learn and make permanent changes (and yes, I'm looking at all of you complaining about never being able to gorge yourselves again...this does not apply to binge eating disorder folks, just plain old volume overeaters) to your mindset about food, then you're still missing the point.
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herrspoons wrote: »
Any studies showing higher success at long-term maintenance for people whose weight problems were only moderate?herrspoons wrote: »
It's really not. I'm not sure someone need 10 years to say something worked. That's crazy talk.
I respect your opinion but, sorry, I agree with the Knighted One. Based on the statistics of regain after weight loss within a five year period, even using the CICO method, he's right on.
I don't even think he's that crazy
That's not a failing of CICO. That's a failing on the part of the person.
Yes.
Ok. And I think that if a person has had success and lost weight....only to regain it 7 years later...that person saying it works isn't wrong. They just lost control. That doesn't mean they can't reflect on what works, because they know what works because they've done it.
Just because they aren't practicing it, doesn't mean they aren't aware of why they regained the weight.
The issue definitely is control, yes.
And despite the fact that people know why they regain, most of them regain even still. Using any and all methods of weight loss. Including CICO. While eating controlled portions of pop tarts. For 4 years and 364 days, or something like that.
Right, but just because they have regained the weight, doesn't mean they don't understand what works.
The did. But I think the definition of "works" might be viewed as subjective in this case. It works if you work it so to speak. But somehow, most people don't feel like working it anymore at about the five year mark, or well before. Most people regain the weight. It's the awful truth.
But that's a personal choice. It doesn't mean that they don't know what works.
Yeah, any method chosen to lose weight is personal. And anyone is free to choose whatever method they want. But really. Statistically, those who choose CICO are not exempt from the dismal regain statistics within 5 years.
This totally. I find it mind boggling when MFP users jump down someone's throat if they talk about other methods of losing other then CICO. At the end of the day we all want to lose the weight and whatever "diet" we use is a personal choice. I certainly can't drink "diet" shakes forever but I also have a hard time counting calories forever so here I am trying for the umpteenth time.
Right. Go and look at those studies and the participants. We are not talking about people who are a bit overweight, we are generally talking about people who are obese or morbidly obese. Frankly you could give them any diet and they'd fail or have a massive recidivism rate, because, not to mince words, they lack the discipline to conform to any maintenance regime, which is why they're so huge in the first place.
For your average slightly porky dieter, CICO and a bit of education works very well.
But what if people are food?
Lol yes indeed, a fallacious argument in that toasters don't toast toast, and toast doesn't toast toast, people with toasters toast toast.
Analogously, food doesn't make people fat, and people don't make people fat, people with food make people fat.
Food is the tool, but people are ultimately the cause (and the solution).
Alas they're a bit thin on the ground. The vast majority of studies are on the obese.
Okay, seriously, because you're scaring me here. I'm still obese. I've read the one study on the long term maintainers, but I don't remember how long of a follow up it was.
I'm honestly a bit foggy now thanks to my flu, so bear with me... IIRC, I was really sort of happy when I read it. There were these 5 or so key behaviors that the maintainers had in common, and each of them was something that I had already known was part of my long-term plan. So I was sort of encouraged by that.
Do I really, really have that little hope? I know the odds are greatly against anyone, but I would think that if you're going into it with your eyes open to the pitfalls (like isn't there some hormonal nonsense that makes you hungrier until it sorts itself all out after a while) and a plan to deal with them (cardio curbs my appetite), you'll increase your odds?
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Since I'm already in this thread, I should post something vaguely relevant.
People are really disappointed to hear they can eat anything they want and still lose weight because, to be honest, it isn't true. Ultimately, people don't want to eat a serving of Doritos... they want to eat a bag of them. As the old saying goes, size does matter.
Not that I blame them, a "serving" is 12 Doritos. Seriously, look it up.
It isn't so much that you can eat anything you want, it's rather that you can eat the foods you want but not in the quantities you want or you can eat foods you don't want in quantities that, probably, exceed what you want.
People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »For me, it was just so liberating and empowering to know that I could do it by myself.
Not to be a wet blanket, but until someone actually reaches goal weight and successful maintains the weight loss for 5-10 years, they're not really in a position to say that anything in particular "works".
So, let's see, I maintained a 300lb loss for 13 years. I gained less than 1/3 back over a two year period, and have since lost about 45 of what I regained. Am I in a position to say what works or not?
There are no guarantees here. You could do everything textbook perfect and still end up gaining back when your health or living situation changes. Personally, I have no interest in evangelizing. I'll answer people's questions when they ask, and I'll correct the asinine misinformation that comes up (I especially love the ones who insist I'll have brain damage after a few months), but frankly, I don't see any reason to trust anyone, regardless of how long they've lost or maintained, if they think it's their job to volunteer their WOE as "The Truth."0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Do I really, really have that little hope? I know the odds are greatly against anyone, but I would think that if you're going into it with your eyes open to the pitfalls (like isn't there some hormonal nonsense that makes you hungrier until it sorts itself all out after a while) and a plan to deal with them (cardio curbs my appetite), you'll increase your odds?
The amount of "hope" is ultimately up to you, all we know is that there is no evidence that "doing it right" in the weight loss phase leads to better results in the maintenance phase.0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »For me, it was just so liberating and empowering to know that I could do it by myself.
Not to be a wet blanket, but until someone actually reaches goal weight and successful maintains the weight loss for 5-10 years, they're not really in a position to say that anything in particular "works".
So, let's see, I maintained a 300lb loss for 13 years. I gained less than 1/3 back over a two year period, and have since lost about 45 of what I regained. Am I in a position to say what works or not?
I'd buy your book, yes, if that's what you're asking.
:drinker:
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People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »For me, it was just so liberating and empowering to know that I could do it by myself.
Not to be a wet blanket, but until someone actually reaches goal weight and successful maintains the weight loss for 5-10 years, they're not really in a position to say that anything in particular "works".
So, let's see, I maintained a 300lb loss for 13 years. I gained less than 1/3 back over a two year period, and have since lost about 45 of what I regained. Am I in a position to say what works or not?
There are no guarantees here. You could do everything textbook perfect and still end up gaining back when your health or living situation changes. Personally, I have no interest in evangelizing. I'll answer people's questions when they ask, and I'll correct the asinine misinformation that comes up (I especially love the ones who insist I'll have brain damage after a few months), but frankly, I don't see any reason to trust anyone, regardless of how long they've lost or maintained, if they think it's their job to volunteer their WOE as "The Truth."
I'd say you have a pretty damn good handle on things as they work for you, yes.
And yes, I agree about the bolded part.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Do I really, really have that little hope? I know the odds are greatly against anyone, but I would think that if you're going into it with your eyes open to the pitfalls (like isn't there some hormonal nonsense that makes you hungrier until it sorts itself all out after a while) and a plan to deal with them (cardio curbs my appetite), you'll increase your odds?
The amount of "hope" is ultimately up to you, all we know is that there is no evidence that "doing it right" in the weight loss phase leads to better results in the maintenance phase.
Where did you get that I was talking about doing it "right"? If I came across that way, I didn't mean to.
The only RIGHT thing to do during the weight loss phase is to learn new habits and to realize that they need to be permanent if you want to keep the weight off.
You're fond of calling it restriction, I'm fond of calling it correction of a prior fault of not knowing how to eat correctly for my body size... but to me, that's what the weight loss phase is about learning. No matter what we call it
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herrspoons wrote: »People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.
Great. That's a failing on your part though.
No. It's a preference and a choice. NOT a failing. Nothing about that choice is a failing. It's just a choice. Ridiculous.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »Since I'm already in this thread, I should post something vaguely relevant.
People are really disappointed to hear they can eat anything they want and still lose weight because, to be honest, it isn't true. Ultimately, people don't want to eat a serving of Doritos... they want to eat a bag of them. As the old saying goes, size does matter.
Not that I blame them, a "serving" is 12 Doritos. Seriously, look it up.
It isn't so much that you can eat anything you want, it's rather that you can eat the foods you want but not in the quantities you want or you can eat foods you don't want in quantities that, probably, exceed what you want.
People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
I'm not sure I understand this. For example, tonight I had three dark chocolate digestives and half a bag of fruit pastilles. I enjoyed these considerably more, and certainly wanted them more, than the two or three pieces of fruit that I could have had instead.
So I ate what I wanted, but the rest of the biscuits and sweets are in the goodies tin.
Because you're not someone who started out in the habit of eating an entire sleeve of digestives or the entire bag of pastilles. For you, it just so happens that what you want also coincides with a portion small enough to work to your advantage. Imagine you were a 60 year old, 5 foot tall woman, would the 3 and half a bag still be no real sacrifice? Conversely, if you were a 6'4" powerlifter, you probably could eat the whole sleeve and the whole bag, and have room left for ice cream.
The problem with universal advice is it doesn't apply to everyone the same way. I can have bacon, chocolate, steak, 3 kinds of cheese, real whipped cream, and pancakes in one day, sometimes for several days in a row. That doesn't for a moment translate to someone following a typical 30/30/40 split being able to do the same, and it would be disingenuous of me to suggest that they can. It would be downright cruel of me to tell someone on 1200 a day that since I do it, they can, too.0 -
Regarding short- vs long-term success, my opinion is that, in the long run, we'll all be dead and glistening white worms will feast upon our decaying entrails.
If you're either where you want to be or going in the right direction at the moment, you're good. If not and you care, change your approach.
If not but you don't care, let's go have a beer and talk about women.
Nah, you understood perfectly well what I meant.herrspoons wrote: »Since I'm already in this thread, I should post something vaguely relevant.
People are really disappointed to hear they can eat anything they want and still lose weight because, to be honest, it isn't true. Ultimately, people don't want to eat a serving of Doritos... they want to eat a bag of them. As the old saying goes, size does matter.
Not that I blame them, a "serving" is 12 Doritos. Seriously, look it up.
It isn't so much that you can eat anything you want, it's rather that you can eat the foods you want but not in the quantities you want or you can eat foods you don't want in quantities that, probably, exceed what you want.
People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
I'm not sure I understand this. For example, tonight I had three dark chocolate digestives and half a bag of fruit pastilles. I enjoyed these considerably more, and certainly wanted them more, than the two or three pieces of fruit that I could have had instead.
So I ate what I wanted, but the rest of the biscuits and sweets are in the goodies tin.
If it doesn't apply to your personal experience, it might be related to why you didn't feel disappointed to hear you can eat anything you want and still lose weight.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.
Great. That's a failing on your part though.
No. It's a preference and a choice. NOT a failing. Nothing about that choice is a failing. It's just a choice. Ridiculous.
No. It's a preference to abstain.
It's a failing to still want an outsized serving.
And there's nothing wrong with having a failing and deciding to deal with it this way. But it's not a mark against the idea of moderation if you find you can't moderate yourself when it comes to some trigger foods.
And before you think I haven't stared down a box of cookies and eaten the whole thing or a pan of brownies and "just another bite"-d my way through the whole pan? Think again.
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herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.
Great. That's a failing on your part though.
No. It's a preference and a choice. NOT a failing. Don't be ridiculous.
Since we are referencing the particular point:
"You can eat whatever you want just less of it"
It actually is.
If we're assuming the felicity of that point: because one *can* therefore one must? And if one chooses not to, they are some how flawed? No.
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Which of course is NOT what he said.herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.
Great. That's a failing on your part though.
No. It's a preference and a choice. NOT a failing. Don't be ridiculous.
Since we are referencing the particular point:
"You can eat whatever you want just less of it"
It actually is.
If we're assuming the felicity of that point: because one *can* therefore one must? And if one chooses not to, they are some how flawed? No.
Which part of not being able to only have one slice of pizza, which would be eating what you want but less of it, instead of the whole thing, which would not, being a failing of the individual not the principle are you having difficulty with?
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herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
Which of course is NOT what he said.herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »People get frustrated because when they are told "you can eat whatever you want, just less of it", they are in effect being told "you can't eat whatever you want..."
Yes.
That's the part that all too often gets left out of the conversation.
I'd rather have no pizza than limit myself to one slice of pizza.
Great. That's a failing on your part though.
No. It's a preference and a choice. NOT a failing. Don't be ridiculous.
Since we are referencing the particular point:
"You can eat whatever you want just less of it"
It actually is.
If we're assuming the felicity of that point: because one *can* therefore one must? And if one chooses not to, they are some how flawed? No.
Which part of not being able to only have one slice of pizza, which would be eating what you want but less of it, instead of the whole thing, which would not, being a failing of the individual not the principle are you having difficulty with?
Boring.
Factuality and felicity are boring? ok. lol0 -
BellaGettinFit wrote: »because it's not true. i've been eating anything i want for years and gaining rolls and stretch marks.
It's about quantity.
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Normally I would try to clean up the thread, but let's be honest, it's Friday and there's no way this is going to recover. So let's say violations of guidelines 1 and 2 and call it the weekend.0
This discussion has been closed.
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