Thoughts on my eating philosophy?
Replies
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MonsoonStorm wrote: »I think its great.
Over the past few years I have seen MFP slowly trend from accepting others food choices to becoming more militant about 'macros and calorie counts at the expense of everything else'. In my humble opinion it has gone too far that way.
I am a flexible dieter, and keeping my macros in check is my main focus, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to eat more natural foods and less processed stuff. Instead of applying your own experience and biases, just applaud people for wanting to improve their eating habits. Again, there are very few restrictions mentioned in the OP's post, it is all sensible and not very restrictive at all!
If she cant make it work and needs a more flexible eating plan, then let her come back and ask for that advice when its needed.
^ This.
It's *roughly* how I eat regardless. It's not "hard" I actually did it originally more from a standpoint of wanting to support local farmers rather than a "this will make me lose weight!" stand point.
At the end of the day the majority of this forum concentrates massively on CICO and generally neglects the "wellbeing" and philosophical/belief side of things. The thing is, sometimes that extra little bit of morality behind a reasoning can sometimes make it easier for that "system" to become part of your life rather than something you are just going to try because you've tried everything else and have nothing left to lose...
I guess I still haven't quite gotten used to the immediate negative reactions any time someone makes a post like OP.
"Hey! I wish to make some changes to improve my life and help out others!"... followed by "OMG why, CICO noob, you're an idiot"
Why can't people accept that changes like the one that OP stated aren't a big deal, and if OP decides it isn't working out due to time restrictions or whatever then she's hardly about to hurl herself into a vat of Coca Cola and attempt to drink it all until she explodes...
At the end of the day, you've no idea what OP's original habits are... perhaps the only significant difference will be coke, not exactly a massive deal to be replacing coke with something else.
Go for it OP. I hope it works well for you.
*runs off to find a shakeology person to demean to make up for the support given* that's how this works, right?
*edited to add* looks like this philosophy is an extension of a restricted diet you are already on. re: digestion issues... It's a roll of the dice. You keep trying things and once you find something that works, you stick to it. You stick to it because if you don't then life becomes thoroughly miserable. I hope you find your holy grail. Try what you like and give yourself whatever 'ideals' you like to try and figure it out. Whatever helps.
*APPLAUSE*
glad i'm not the only one who sees the animosity every time someone suggests "giving something up" or "making at tiny change"
It's not the end of the world if someone decides not to eat brownies and Coke, people!!
Um. I'm pretty sure we only get upset when we see people saying they HAVE to give up these things for weight loss, or that they're bad for you, or that you can't be healthy and eat them.
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It's not the end of the world if someone decides not to eat brownies and Coke, people!!
I've never seen one of these discussions that was about someone deciding not to eat brownies and Coke.
There are plenty of foods that all of us choose not to eat, I'm sure. But if someone says "here is my philosophy of eating, what do you think" it opens the door for a broader discussion.
Also, I think there's a difference between saying "this is how I personally prefer to eat and what I find helpful" and "this is what is necessary for health/nutrition/weight loss."
For example, I find eating seasonally and getting food from a CSA or green market to be something that helps me eat better--it gets me excited about eating lots and lots of produce, trying new things and new ways of cooking, etc. But others may find that burdensome and if they think it's not good enough to just buy veggies at the grocery or cook some simple meals from home if they aren't used to it, using things like canned tomatoes and beans (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with canned tomatoes and beans), then the mythologizing of doing it like in the 1800s or whatever can end up being discouraging. That's why I think it's important to debunk some of the less helpful or woo-based "clean" stuff.
It's probably because I feel the appeal of some of the "woo" (or at least the romanticizing of the "natural" or the "local") that I feel so strongly about questioning some of it.0 -
lemonsnowdrop wrote: »MonsoonStorm wrote: »I think its great.
Over the past few years I have seen MFP slowly trend from accepting others food choices to becoming more militant about 'macros and calorie counts at the expense of everything else'. In my humble opinion it has gone too far that way.
I am a flexible dieter, and keeping my macros in check is my main focus, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to eat more natural foods and less processed stuff. Instead of applying your own experience and biases, just applaud people for wanting to improve their eating habits. Again, there are very few restrictions mentioned in the OP's post, it is all sensible and not very restrictive at all!
If she cant make it work and needs a more flexible eating plan, then let her come back and ask for that advice when its needed.
^ This.
It's *roughly* how I eat regardless. It's not "hard" I actually did it originally more from a standpoint of wanting to support local farmers rather than a "this will make me lose weight!" stand point.
At the end of the day the majority of this forum concentrates massively on CICO and generally neglects the "wellbeing" and philosophical/belief side of things. The thing is, sometimes that extra little bit of morality behind a reasoning can sometimes make it easier for that "system" to become part of your life rather than something you are just going to try because you've tried everything else and have nothing left to lose...
I guess I still haven't quite gotten used to the immediate negative reactions any time someone makes a post like OP.
"Hey! I wish to make some changes to improve my life and help out others!"... followed by "OMG why, CICO noob, you're an idiot"
Why can't people accept that changes like the one that OP stated aren't a big deal, and if OP decides it isn't working out due to time restrictions or whatever then she's hardly about to hurl herself into a vat of Coca Cola and attempt to drink it all until she explodes...
At the end of the day, you've no idea what OP's original habits are... perhaps the only significant difference will be coke, not exactly a massive deal to be replacing coke with something else.
Go for it OP. I hope it works well for you.
*runs off to find a shakeology person to demean to make up for the support given* that's how this works, right?
*edited to add* looks like this philosophy is an extension of a restricted diet you are already on. re: digestion issues... It's a roll of the dice. You keep trying things and once you find something that works, you stick to it. You stick to it because if you don't then life becomes thoroughly miserable. I hope you find your holy grail. Try what you like and give yourself whatever 'ideals' you like to try and figure it out. Whatever helps.
*APPLAUSE*
glad i'm not the only one who sees the animosity every time someone suggests "giving something up" or "making at tiny change"
It's not the end of the world if someone decides not to eat brownies and Coke, people!!
Um. I'm pretty sure we only get upset when we see people saying they HAVE to give up these things for weight loss, or that they're bad for you, or that you can't be healthy and eat them.
None of which OP has said. Yet people are still like DONT GIVE ANYTHING UP EVERRRR OMG
lol0 -
lemonsnowdrop wrote: »MonsoonStorm wrote: »I think its great.
Over the past few years I have seen MFP slowly trend from accepting others food choices to becoming more militant about 'macros and calorie counts at the expense of everything else'. In my humble opinion it has gone too far that way.
I am a flexible dieter, and keeping my macros in check is my main focus, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to eat more natural foods and less processed stuff. Instead of applying your own experience and biases, just applaud people for wanting to improve their eating habits. Again, there are very few restrictions mentioned in the OP's post, it is all sensible and not very restrictive at all!
If she cant make it work and needs a more flexible eating plan, then let her come back and ask for that advice when its needed.
^ This.
It's *roughly* how I eat regardless. It's not "hard" I actually did it originally more from a standpoint of wanting to support local farmers rather than a "this will make me lose weight!" stand point.
At the end of the day the majority of this forum concentrates massively on CICO and generally neglects the "wellbeing" and philosophical/belief side of things. The thing is, sometimes that extra little bit of morality behind a reasoning can sometimes make it easier for that "system" to become part of your life rather than something you are just going to try because you've tried everything else and have nothing left to lose...
I guess I still haven't quite gotten used to the immediate negative reactions any time someone makes a post like OP.
"Hey! I wish to make some changes to improve my life and help out others!"... followed by "OMG why, CICO noob, you're an idiot"
Why can't people accept that changes like the one that OP stated aren't a big deal, and if OP decides it isn't working out due to time restrictions or whatever then she's hardly about to hurl herself into a vat of Coca Cola and attempt to drink it all until she explodes...
At the end of the day, you've no idea what OP's original habits are... perhaps the only significant difference will be coke, not exactly a massive deal to be replacing coke with something else.
Go for it OP. I hope it works well for you.
*runs off to find a shakeology person to demean to make up for the support given* that's how this works, right?
*edited to add* looks like this philosophy is an extension of a restricted diet you are already on. re: digestion issues... It's a roll of the dice. You keep trying things and once you find something that works, you stick to it. You stick to it because if you don't then life becomes thoroughly miserable. I hope you find your holy grail. Try what you like and give yourself whatever 'ideals' you like to try and figure it out. Whatever helps.
*APPLAUSE*
glad i'm not the only one who sees the animosity every time someone suggests "giving something up" or "making at tiny change"
It's not the end of the world if someone decides not to eat brownies and Coke, people!!
Um. I'm pretty sure we only get upset when we see people saying they HAVE to give up these things for weight loss, or that they're bad for you, or that you can't be healthy and eat them.
None of which OP has said. Yet people are still like DONT GIVE ANYTHING UP EVERRRR OMG
lol
No, actually, OP asked what we thought of her eating philosophy. That seems like a pretty good time to give an opinion imo.
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Nakeshia88 wrote: »My new philosophy for food is that if you can't grow it, catch it, kill it or make it yourself then don't eat it. For example: I can grow fruits/vegetables/legumes/grains and nuts so these are OK; I can fish and shoot so meat is OK; and I can/could easily learn to do things like grow/grind my own flour, salt and coffee, I can brew beer, make bread and pasta so these are OK - however, I couldn't make something like Coca Cola or anything containing artificial ingredients/additives so I won't eat these things.
So lately when I'm picking up food that's in a tin, bag or box I'll read the ingredients and ask myself, could I grow or kill these ingredients, process and mix them together myself to make this? If so, then I'll buy it, if not, back it goes! What do you think of this philosophy?
Well since you asked-I think it's pretty silly and doesn't really make sense based on how you're defining the parameters. But hey, whatever floats your boat
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I agree with it. I am eating quite clean as well. I am losing weight at a slow and steady rate like never before. It feels great 0
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Just read through the thread and I'd like to give props to the OP. She asked for feedback, got it, and a generally adult-level conversation was had.
One slightly tangential perspective: I make beer as a hobby. When I started I used canned or dry malt extract and packaged hops.
As I got better at it I started to get deeper into the process. I became an all-grain brewer and mashed the barley malt myself. I even tried my hand at growing hops, which worked out well.
But as I got more into it I realized I could never get to the bottom of it. I could theoretically make my own barley malt, but that's a highly involved process. Beyond that I could grow my own barley. I could culture my own yeast. I'm not sure how I would do proper sanitation without using chlorine or other commercially available sanitizing agents.
So while I think it's great to get into the process and learn to make things closer to the source, in the end there it's pretty damn hard to get to "scratch" for almost any food or drink we consume.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
Was she by chance Cajun or Creole?
That was my dad's philosophy growing up. We were nit allowed to throw out any spoiled or moldy food. It was just made into something else. We ate a lot of gumbos and jambalayas, with lots of spices.
Didn't learn about throwing out bad food until a few years into my marriage...That was a very interesting talk.
No, but her parents were Italian immigrant working people, and she grew up during the Depression/WW2.
Ahhh. I see. Do you throw things out now or is it still a struggle to do so? 0 -
lemonsnowdrop wrote: »MonsoonStorm wrote: »I think its great.
Over the past few years I have seen MFP slowly trend from accepting others food choices to becoming more militant about 'macros and calorie counts at the expense of everything else'. In my humble opinion it has gone too far that way.
I am a flexible dieter, and keeping my macros in check is my main focus, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to eat more natural foods and less processed stuff. Instead of applying your own experience and biases, just applaud people for wanting to improve their eating habits. Again, there are very few restrictions mentioned in the OP's post, it is all sensible and not very restrictive at all!
If she cant make it work and needs a more flexible eating plan, then let her come back and ask for that advice when its needed.
^ This.
It's *roughly* how I eat regardless. It's not "hard" I actually did it originally more from a standpoint of wanting to support local farmers rather than a "this will make me lose weight!" stand point.
At the end of the day the majority of this forum concentrates massively on CICO and generally neglects the "wellbeing" and philosophical/belief side of things. The thing is, sometimes that extra little bit of morality behind a reasoning can sometimes make it easier for that "system" to become part of your life rather than something you are just going to try because you've tried everything else and have nothing left to lose...
I guess I still haven't quite gotten used to the immediate negative reactions any time someone makes a post like OP.
"Hey! I wish to make some changes to improve my life and help out others!"... followed by "OMG why, CICO noob, you're an idiot"
Why can't people accept that changes like the one that OP stated aren't a big deal, and if OP decides it isn't working out due to time restrictions or whatever then she's hardly about to hurl herself into a vat of Coca Cola and attempt to drink it all until she explodes...
At the end of the day, you've no idea what OP's original habits are... perhaps the only significant difference will be coke, not exactly a massive deal to be replacing coke with something else.
Go for it OP. I hope it works well for you.
*runs off to find a shakeology person to demean to make up for the support given* that's how this works, right?
*edited to add* looks like this philosophy is an extension of a restricted diet you are already on. re: digestion issues... It's a roll of the dice. You keep trying things and once you find something that works, you stick to it. You stick to it because if you don't then life becomes thoroughly miserable. I hope you find your holy grail. Try what you like and give yourself whatever 'ideals' you like to try and figure it out. Whatever helps.
*APPLAUSE*
glad i'm not the only one who sees the animosity every time someone suggests "giving something up" or "making at tiny change"
It's not the end of the world if someone decides not to eat brownies and Coke, people!!
Um. I'm pretty sure we only get upset when we see people saying they HAVE to give up these things for weight loss, or that they're bad for you, or that you can't be healthy and eat them.
None of which OP has said. Yet people are still like DONT GIVE ANYTHING UP EVERRRR OMG
lol
Which is absolutely correct
Cos you know what happens when you publicly announce that you will " give something up forever" a helluva lot of times, you fail and then you crash and burn, cos you failed, and you yo-yo and reinforce that you've failed again
And you don't need to get into that cycle at all
And you don't need to promote that cycle to people who are vulnerable
You can say ..you know what you can do this with a little bit of control of your overall calories, without changing your life completely around, without missing out on that favourite food or that special night out ...you can make this work for you, for your life
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Nakeshia88 wrote: »To give a little background I'm already on a highly restricted diet due to digestion and fatigue issues - a low FODMAP diet pretty much rules out gluten, legumes, most dairy, added sugars, artificial sweeteners and in my case alcohol - along with onions, garlic, apples and many berries. As I'm already so restricted I'm looking for ways to eat the most nutritious foods I can. 'Clean eating' or sticking to mostly natural and low processed (in my mind processing food is doing things like fermenting, grinding, brewing, roasting, drying etc etc.) foods seems to work the best for me at this point in time. Filling my already restricted meals with 'empty calorie' and convenience foods just seems like a waste.
Wouldn't those things be off limits for you anyway? I'm not understanding why you'd make up a restriction in addition to the low FODMAP one.
Personally, rather than a rather arbitrary distinction between things you COULD make and things you couldn't--like others have said, I could buy a soda maker thing and am not sure I could make proper yogurt--why not achieve the goal of getting the best fuel for your body by simply focusing on the specifics of what you eat. I can make cake, but that doesn't mean that eating lots of cake is good for me. Eating it in moderation on occasion, sure.
But it's up to you, so if it makes you happy or makes the low FODMAP thing more bearable, go for it.
Yoghurt is surprisingly easy!! Pic below made by me over the weekend. It is insanely good. This is my first batch from scratch, I was using packet mix previously.
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I read a lot of people's comments and I don't like this motto of "eat anything at all in moderation" at all.
There have been studies done that show just how much chemicals impact rat brains and how big companies can control your addictions/make you come back. Their food has a high salt,fat, sugar ratio that causes a surge of dopamine to come out like a drug. Can you really just have one and do it in moderation?
No. I personally can not. When I eat crappy chemicals I always come back to them and the cycle doesn't end.
When I totally stop them and eat things that are raw/organic and wean myself off the chemicals I have actual withdrawal but it results in stopping the intense cravings and makes you stop wanting them completely. Yes I can spiral back into it but I have to do an organic detox to get out of it. Our food industry currently sucks and it is a battle for a lot of people which is why obesity is an epidemic.
So regardless what anyone says OP's suggestion sounds like she will focus mostly on raw foods/minus all the chemicals, and that's great.0 -
You know petting puppies releases dopamine too, right?
And yes, I really can just have one and do it in moderation. So can many other people here.
Also, your kidneys and liver do all the detoxing your body needs just fine on their own. 0 -
baby05phat wrote: »I read a lot of people's comments and I don't like this motto of "eat anything at all in moderation" at all.
There have been studies done that show just how much chemicals impact rat brains and how big companies can control your addictions/make you come back. Their food has a high salt,fat, sugar ratio that causes a surge of dopamine to come out like a drug. Can you really just have one and do it in moderation?
No. I can not. When I eat crappy chemicals I always come back to them and the cycle doesn't end.
When I totally stop them and eat things that are raw/organic and wean myself off the chemicals I have actual withdrawal but I got craving that crap. Yes I can spiral back into it but I have to do an organic detox to get out of it. Our food industry currently sucks and it is a battle for a lot of people which is why obesity is an epidemic.
So regardless what what anyone says OP's suggestion sounds like she will focus mostly on raw foods/minus all the chemicals, and that's great.
Please ...link to these studies
Show us the scientific proof that it's dopamine that keeps you fat and not a lack of control
And name one toxin your "organic detox" removed from your body
I'll wait0 -
0
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No, just a puppy petting addict. You should get help for that 0 -
My only question is, "Why?" There's nothing magic in these foods that will cause weight loss.0
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I was gonna say "But I like my puppies " but I caught myself
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Say that to the cancer studies as well.
As for links just google
"Fast food addiction study, fast food addicting as drugs, and cancer studies and fast foods/modified food"
Europe has banned most modified food for a reason.
But I'm not going to fight with any of you. Believe what you wish and do what works for you!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21999689/
http://foodaddictioninstitute.org/scientific-research/physical-craving-and-food-addiction-a-scientific-review/Nony_Mouse wrote: »You know petting puppies releases dopamine too, right?
And yes, I really can just have one and do it in moderation. So can many other people here.
Also, your kidneys and liver do all the detoxing your body needs just fine on their own.0 -
baby05phat wrote: »Say that to the cancer studies as well.
As for links just google
"Fast food addiction study, fast food addicting as drugs, and cancer studies and fast foods/modified food"
Europe has banned most modified food for a reason.
But I'm not going to fight with any of you. Believe what you wish and do what works for you!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21999689/
http://foodaddictioninstitute.org/scientific-research/physical-craving-and-food-addiction-a-scientific-review/Nony_Mouse wrote: »You know petting puppies releases dopamine too, right?
And yes, I really can just have one and do it in moderation. So can many other people here.
Also, your kidneys and liver do all the detoxing your body needs just fine on their own.
Food addiction is a behavioural issue not a physical addiction
Your paper does not prove your point, did you read it?
I'm European, what modified foods are you talking about? We prevented genetically modified crop growth due to public outcry but it has snuck in the back door...it's already well established in the US
I agree "Everybody should do what works for them" and my throw away the unsubstantiated micro claims approach has seen me lose 52lbs and I've been in maintenance since February ...more importantly I'm off asthma meds, don't get anxiety attacks, I'm strong, fit and feel and look 20 years younger than I did a year ago
Focus on the main things ...eat fewer calories than you burn and move more
Hit your macros, pay attention to micro nutrients
Everything else is window dressing0 -
Yeah I agree with that, nutritious foods with lots of vitamins is the way to go. A diet of pepsi, chips, donuts in moderation with a calorie deficit will lead to an early grave so doing our best to make the best food choices can be hard but it's what I have to strive towards or I am a zombie personally. I become addicted to a cycle of unhealthy junk food and take out food. Even if it is within my calorie range in the beginning I begin to starve because the food amount is tiny and everything is so calorie dense and eventually I need more and more0
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baby05phat wrote: »Yeah I agree with that, nutritious foods with lots of vitamins is the way to go. A diet of pepsi, chips, donuts in moderation with a calorie deficit will lead to an early grave so doing our best to make the best food choices can be hard but it's what I have to strive towards or I am a zombie personally. I become addicted to a cycle of unhealthy junk food and take out food. Even if it is within my calorie range in the beginning I begin to starve because the food amount is tiny and everything is so calorie dense and eventually I need more and more
'In moderation' doesn't mean that's all you're eating. It means getting most of your food from nutrient dense sources, and incorporating some of those other things, in moderation, once you have met your macro and micro targets.0 -
Once I start calorie dense my palate remains hyperactive and needs more of that and I blow through my calories in seconds, and the next day I am always craving something calorie dense versus nutritious. If I stay only on nutritious l wake up actually wanting those foods and calorie dense/junk have no appeal to me.
Its what works for me, we are all build different0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
Was she by chance Cajun or Creole? That was my dad's philosophy growing up. We were nit allowed to throw out any spoiled or moldy food. It was just made into something else. We ate a lot of gumbos and jambalayas, with lots of spices.
Didn't learn about throwing out bad food until a few years into my marriage...That was a very interesting talk.
No, but her parents were Italian immigrant working people, and she grew up during the Depression/WW2.
Ahhh. I see. Do you throw things out now or is it still a struggle to do so?
I'm finding the older I get, the harder it is to throw things away. This applies to food that might be slightly dodgy, clothing, rubber bands... (Who said we all turn into our mothers eventually!)
I haven't started sticking the old bits of soap together to make a 'new' bar yet, but I'm sure that'll come.0 -
I think your philosophy is fine. I don't want to just lose weight but want to be healthy too. Some foods and drinks have no nutritional value whatsoever. They seem a waste of the daily calorie intake. I'm trying to come up with alternatives to foods which I know contributed to weight gain eg chocolate. I'm enjoying discovering new things to eat and drink. It doesn't mean I'll never have chocolate again, it's just I'll think twice about heading to buy it when out shopping and think "what else could I have that will satisfy that craving?" I don't think there's anything wrong with people avoiding unprocessed food as much as possible or completely. It feels great and the food is tasty - it makes eating a joy instead of a constant focus on which foods we are depriving ourselves of. Some foods are just more nutritious than others. That can't be disputed.0
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mannishbob wrote: »I think your philosophy is fine. I don't want to just lose weight but want to be healthy too. Some foods and drinks have no nutritional value whatsoever. They seem a waste of the daily calorie intake. I'm trying to come up with alternatives to foods which I know contributed to weight gain eg chocolate. I'm enjoying discovering new things to eat and drink. It doesn't mean I'll never have chocolate again, it's just I'll think twice about heading to buy it when out shopping and think "what else could I have that will satisfy that craving?" I don't think there's anything wrong with people avoiding unprocessed food as much as possible or completely. It feels great and the food is tasty - it makes eating a joy instead of a constant focus on which foods we are depriving ourselves of. Some foods are just more nutritious than others. That can't be disputed.
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I meant to say "avoiding processed foods" not unprocessed. How do you edit these posts?!?0
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mannishbob wrote: »I meant to say "avoiding processed foods" not unprocessed. How do you edit these posts?!?
Click on the little 'wheel' on the top right of your post and select 'Edit'.
You can use this to delete your duplicate post too.
(edit: only for up to an hour after you posted though...)0 -
baby05phat wrote: »I read a lot of people's comments and I don't like this motto of "eat anything at all in moderation" at all.
There have been studies done that show just how much chemicals impact rat brains and how big companies can control your addictions/make you come back. Their food has a high salt,fat, sugar ratio that causes a surge of dopamine to come out like a drug. Can you really just have one and do it in moderation?
No. I personally can not. When I eat crappy chemicals I always come back to them and the cycle doesn't end.
When I totally stop them and eat things that are raw/organic and wean myself off the chemicals I have actual withdrawal but it results in stopping the intense cravings and makes you stop wanting them completely. Yes I can spiral back into it but I have to do an organic detox to get out of it. Our food industry currently sucks and it is a battle for a lot of people which is why obesity is an epidemic.
So regardless what anyone says OP's suggestion sounds like she will focus mostly on raw foods/minus all the chemicals, and that's great.
Something tells me you read this:
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I stick to something similar - but, especially when you aren't the only person in your household, it can be tough to adhere to. Often, foods of this type aren't quick.
I have a 9 year old daughter who (as a competitive gymnast) is EXTREMELY FIT and has a very high caloric requirement for basic functioning, let alone work out days. This also means we have an insanely complicated schedule. If I tried to adhere to this every day, the result would be that I would almost never have time to make these foods, and then would end up binge-ing at the end of the day (which is the biggest part of my weight problem). So I HAD to accept that some prepared foods (with things I can't identify or pronounce) are going ot have to be OK for now. Even so, I try to stick to some of the less scary ones 0
This discussion has been closed.
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