Recomposition: Maintaining weight while losing fat
Replies
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LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.
Well, it is the recomp thread after all
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robertw486 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.
Actually, it dovetails quite nicely with the usual contention that "newbie gains" will result in some LBM being put on as bodyfat is reduced. Did you read the conclusion of the linked study?:The main thing we want you, dear reader, to take home from this article is this – recomposition is normal. It happens – less so in trained individuals, but much more in untrained, new lifters. It’s not necessarily something to aim for, but be aware of it and how it can affect your scale weight if you use that as a metric to gauge progress for either you or your clients...
It also reinforces that strength training is in fact a significant part of the process, and that the laws of thermodynamics aren't invalidated. Did you read the intro?:Note: This article isn’t going to be an in-depth exploration of whether or not energy balance applies to humans; that is not up for dispute. There are countless metabolic ward studies supporting the theory. Rather, it is going to be exploring some of the nuances of how energy balance can apply to humans – the “grey areas” that tend to throw most of us when our weight doesn’t move as predicted over time, especially when resistance training becomes a significant part of the equation....0 -
That article is better than most on the subject, which have very shoddy separation of the difference between terms of muscle mass and LBM.
A study says LBM and that's all that is measured - commenter says muscle mass and takes off on reasoning on study.
Drink a couple glasses of water and you just increased your LBM.
Start a cardio routine and your blood volume will increase and therefore your LBM.
Start a lifting routine and before you've even tapped out your existing muscle strength, your body stores more glucose with attached water in the muscles, and therefore you increased LBM.
But in none of those examples would muscle mass have increased.
Which is fine - the right increase of LBM still increases metabolism, from body dealing with extra water (well, not drinking it or increased sodium intake much).
But strictly speaking - you didn't increase muscle mass.
And in all those examples above, you could indeed be eating less calories than you burn daily - and gain weight.
Water weight.
And that's LBM.
Not muscle mass.
I did notice that even in this commentary, some of the studies on the untrained would fall in to this point of water weight not being accounted for as body improvements and assumed it was muscle mass. Not a good assumption.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.
Wouldn't they fall into the category of newbies or beginners, who very well can increase LBM while in a deficit?0 -
robertw486 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.
Actually, it dovetails quite nicely with the usual contention that "newbie gains" will result in some LBM being put on as bodyfat is reduced. Did you read the conclusion of the linked study?:The main thing we want you, dear reader, to take home from this article is this – recomposition is normal. It happens – less so in trained individuals, but much more in untrained, new lifters. It’s not necessarily something to aim for, but be aware of it and how it can affect your scale weight if you use that as a metric to gauge progress for either you or your clients...
It also reinforces that strength training is in fact a significant part of the process, and that the laws of thermodynamics aren't invalidated. Did you read the intro?:Note: This article isn’t going to be an in-depth exploration of whether or not energy balance applies to humans; that is not up for dispute. There are countless metabolic ward studies supporting the theory. Rather, it is going to be exploring some of the nuances of how energy balance can apply to humans – the “grey areas” that tend to throw most of us when our weight doesn’t move as predicted over time, especially when resistance training becomes a significant part of the equation....
I did read the entire piece, including where the trained lifters still had gains in LBM while losing fat. The only trained group that showed fat increase was on the lowest protein levels used for the trained subject, but they were also the only group of trained subjects tested that was eating at a surplus.
The data in the chart actually somewhat conflicts with the "newbie gain" idea. The largest net gains in LBM and losses in fat were trained test subjects. And later in the piece it states that the group in surplus gained more fat but not more LBM, which conflicts with those who say the only way to bulk is to eat in a greater surplus.
If a group doing 4 sets of leg presses and extensions three times a week qualifies as "lifting heavy"... well that would be new to my way of thinking.1 -
robertw486 wrote: »...If a group doing 4 sets of leg presses and extensions three times a week qualifies as "lifting heavy"... well that would be new to my way of thinking.
Really? Go try 4 sets of leg press with about 600 pounds on the sled, then do 4 sets of extensions with a couple hundred on the stack. Let me know if it feels heavy or not. If you can even walk two days later, limp back into the gym and repeat it twice more that week. Then progress the weight weekly to maintain the intensity.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »...If a group doing 4 sets of leg presses and extensions three times a week qualifies as "lifting heavy"... well that would be new to my way of thinking.
Really? Go try 4 sets of leg press with about 600 pounds on the sled, then do 4 sets of extensions with a couple hundred on the stack. Let me know if it feels heavy or not. If you can even walk two days later, limp back into the gym and repeat it twice more that week. Then progress the weight weekly to maintain the intensity.
If you want to impress that some lift more than others... well that's obvious. I'm not new to the idea of lifting, being in the military we didn't even hit the free weight room unless we were going to work.
But the study breaks down the exact program used, and as with most it's based on a percentage of max single lift strength tests.
From the linked on the older guys....
"During the first 4 wk of training, the workload was increased from 60% of 1RM (10–15 repetitions in each set) to 75% of 1RM (8–10 repetitions). Starting at week 5, 4 sets of 8 repetitions were performed at 75–80% of 1RM on each machine."
Considering the ages, protein intake, eating in deficit ... and really one of the guys was removed due to a gardening incident... they did fairly well.0 -
blankiefinder wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Don't go posting stuff like that. It kills the game of quite a few people around there that claim it's impossible to lose weight and add LBM at the same time, as well as the game of many who claim that the only way to make any LBM gains requires lifting heavy, often, and with huge amounts of protein.
That one example is a real eye opener. Older people, lifting only very little, with low protein intake, eating in a deficit, and increased LBM while losing fat.
Wouldn't they fall into the category of newbies or beginners, who very well can increase LBM while in a deficit?
@blankiefinder
The number of categories of people who can, and possibly do, add muscle in a deficit (not just LBM noting Heybales very true observation that the terms shouldn't be used interchangeably) is far wider than just newbies or beginners.
And those categories contain huge swathes of the population.
Unfortunately locker room lore by the outliers that "probably" can't add muscle in a deficit carries far too much weight and is repeated far too often in absolute terms and with no context.
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That article is better than most on the subject, which have very shoddy separation of the difference between terms of muscle mass and LBM.
A study says LBM and that's all that is measured - commenter says muscle mass and takes off on reasoning on study.
Drink a couple glasses of water and you just increased your LBM.
Start a cardio routine and your blood volume will increase and therefore your LBM.
Start a lifting routine and before you've even tapped out your existing muscle strength, your body stores more glucose with attached water in the muscles, and therefore you increased LBM.
But in none of those examples would muscle mass have increased.
Which is fine - the right increase of LBM still increases metabolism, from body dealing with extra water (well, not drinking it or increased sodium intake much).
But strictly speaking - you didn't increase muscle mass.
And in all those examples above, you could indeed be eating less calories than you burn daily - and gain weight.
Water weight.
And that's LBM.
Not muscle mass.
I did notice that even in this commentary, some of the studies on the untrained would fall in to this point of water weight not being accounted for as body improvements and assumed it was muscle mass. Not a good assumption.
Yes, makes sense. I have seen Brad Schoenfeld address that before though... and that he has seen site specific increases in muscle size in trained individuals while in a deficit as opposed to just increases in LBM. Unfortunately, I've never come across the actual studies.... but he addressed it much like the summary of the article:
"Recomposition is normal, It happens – less so in trained individuals, but much more in untrained, new lifters. It’s not necessarily something to aim for, but be aware of it and how it can affect your scale weight if you use that as a metric to gauge progress for either you or your clients."
He also went on to say it is usually in body parts that are less developed, and that while it can technically occur... it is far less optimal than if one were to be in a caloric surplus.
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Hey I'm Joe and new to this app you seem to know a lot and I know very little. Adding you hoping you can help me in my journey to staying healthy lose weight n more muscle tone .0
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Joining for the info...im at the recomp stage now0
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If reading MFP for a couple months now has taught me anything, it is that people love fads and acronyms.
Reality is a lot simpler:
Weight loss occurs with calorie deficit, and it will be fat loss if adequate nutrition is continued.
Exercise will be fat loss if done in the moderate intensity range using most of the body. Muscle mass will slowly increase with a daily regimen, and then plateau unless the load is gradually increased.
Quick muscle building requires strenuous isolated muscle work-outs that do not encounter energy deficit during the work-out. Most people overeat to avoid energy deficits during these types of work-outs, thus the common experience of gaining fat while 'bulking.'
I suspect, but have not proven, that a "fairly" rapid muscle mass increase along with fat loss is possible with a regimen that incorporates the following:
1. Alternate lifting with cardio days
2. On lifting days prep the work-out with enough carbs and easily digested protein to cover the work-out. As an example, if you hope to average a 10 gram muscle gain through a 500 kCal workout then eat those amounts 30 minutes before the work-out. Since muscle building and repair continues for hours past the work-out itself, these days should probably not be calorie deficit days. In addition to the protein added for the work-out eat RDA amounts of protein.0 -
How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?0
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summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.0 -
summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
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summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
You should expect a large gain in the first few weeks, especially if you are coming straight out of a show into it.
I hit stage the first time at 148 pounds. I gained 15 in the first two weeks after the show, then did a recomp followed by a cut and took stage at 155 pounds looking much leaner 6 months later.0 -
No I haven't done a show in over 4 years! I've just dropped 4kg (am only 1kg off show weight in profile pic) but this is where I want to sit I'm happy here I look great I'm lean enough to have visible abs and I still eat as I wish on weekends and enjoy a few beers! So you could say I'm in my happy place it's the week days that's going to be hard finding my maintenance cals especially since I feel like all I do is eat already the thought of more food is strange but I don't want to lose weight at all! 0
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summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
You should expect a large gain in the first few weeks, especially if you are coming straight out of a show into it.
I hit stage the first time at 148 pounds. I gained 15 in the first two weeks after the show, then did a recomp followed by a cut and took stage at 155 pounds looking much leaner 6 months later.
I ended up in hospital after my 2nd comp (2 shows in 2 weeks) due to water retention doctors thought my kidneys were f$&ked I couldn't walk or put on shoes! 7kg to be precise in a 36hr period
I did 2 more shows after that in following years (profile pic) but was still unable to find maintenance levels....think I've got it this time but I'm still worried it's always been gaining or losing 0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
You should expect a large gain in the first few weeks, especially if you are coming straight out of a show into it.
I hit stage the first time at 148 pounds. I gained 15 in the first two weeks after the show, then did a recomp followed by a cut and took stage at 155 pounds looking much leaner 6 months later.
I ended up in hospital after my 2nd comp (2 shows in 2 weeks) due to water retention doctors thought my kidneys were f$&ked I couldn't walk or put on shoes! 7kg to be precise in a 36hr period I did 2 more shows after that in following years (profile pic) but was still unable to find maintenance levels....think I've got it this time but I'm still worried it's always been gaining or losing
That's scary! I don't use any type of water or sodium loading/depletion. I've seen that and a lack of carbs do bad things.0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
You should expect a large gain in the first few weeks, especially if you are coming straight out of a show into it.
I hit stage the first time at 148 pounds. I gained 15 in the first two weeks after the show, then did a recomp followed by a cut and took stage at 155 pounds looking much leaner 6 months later.
I ended up in hospital after my 2nd comp (2 shows in 2 weeks) due to water retention doctors thought my kidneys were f$&ked I couldn't walk or put on shoes! 7kg to be precise in a 36hr period I did 2 more shows after that in following years (profile pic) but was still unable to find maintenance levels....think I've got it this time but I'm still worried it's always been gaining or losing
That's scary! I don't use any type of water or sodium loading/depletion. I've seen that and a lack of carbs do bad things.
I was coached my monkeys the first time round!! Second comp no loading or depleting, carbs I can't live without lol0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
I weigh daily. Any big daily changes are not fat gains or losses. Don't overreact or you will never find out what your maintenance calories are 0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »How often should one weigh in when starting recomp? Atm I weigh in once a week but I've been looking at some apps that require daily weigh ins then you get a report at the end if the week that looks at all the variables and fluctuations and then some! Could this be a handy tool for the first few months when trying to find your rhythm?
That would be personal preference. Daily will show fluctuations, so if you can handle that do it daily. Weekly will show you a bit of a steadier picture. You really only want to pay attention to an upwards trends, especially if only your waist or thighs are growing.
I'm thinking daily due to the fact that my weekly weigh ins some weeks I'm up 1kg then the next I'm down 1.5kg (I hold water bad) I'm hoping daily weigh ins might even out these fluctuations on my weekly weigh ins. Until I find my calorie maintenance levels anyway
I weigh daily. Any big daily changes are not fat gains or losses. Don't overreact or you will never find out what your maintenance calories are
Yeah good points!0 -
Lately I've been pretty hungry. I have tried a couple things and it seems to help for several weeks but than it doesn't.
I am 5 foot even. My weight generally ranges from 100-103. I'm a 41 year old female. I've been working on this recomp thing for close to a year now.
About 2 months ago I was eating 1900-2000 (calorie goal set to 1950). I usually have 1 day every few weeks that is much higher (going out to dinner, random family events). I changed my goal to 1950-2050 (calorie goal set to 2000). This seemed to help for a little while and then I was hungry again.
I looked at my food diary. I was usually eating 90-110gr protein and around 200gr carbs - the rest in fat. I thought maybe I wasn't getting enough carbs and was overdoing the protein just a tad. So I started eating around 80-100gr protein, 215-250gr carbs - the rest in fat. This has helped but lately I am starting to feel hungry again.
Does anything seem glaringly off about my macros? Can you think of anything that will help me not sprinkle a little hot sauce on my arm and just go to town? 0 -
Lately I've been pretty hungry. I have tried a couple things and it seems to help for several weeks but than it doesn't.
I am 5 foot even. My weight generally ranges from 100-103. I'm a 41 year old female. I've been working on this recomp thing for close to a year now.
About 2 months ago I was eating 1900-2000 (calorie goal set to 1950). I usually have 1 day every few weeks that is much higher (going out to dinner, random family events). I changed my goal to 1950-2050 (calorie goal set to 2000). This seemed to help for a little while and then I was hungry again.
I looked at my food diary. I was usually eating 90-110gr protein and around 200gr carbs - the rest in fat. I thought maybe I wasn't getting enough carbs and was overdoing the protein just a tad. So I started eating around 80-100gr protein, 215-250gr carbs - the rest in fat. This has helped but lately I am starting to feel hungry again.
Does anything seem glaringly off about my macros? Can you think of anything that will help me not sprinkle a little hot sauce on my arm and just go to town?
I find that higher protein and fat help keep me full. Not remotely low carb, just dropping it slightly. It might also be time to up calories a bit more. That should happen over time if you are building lean mass.0 -
I find that higher protein and fat help keep me full. Not remotely low carb, just dropping it slightly. It might also be time to up calories a bit more. That should happen over time if you are building lean mass.
Thanks! After my weight stabilizes from Christmas Eve and Christmas day indulgences I am going to add another 50 calories/day and go from there. I already feel like my calorie allotment is very generous for my age/weight/height but I know I can manage to eat more.
Trying a little more carbs was an effort to try something different to see if it helped. I do think I function better around 100gr of protein a day though.0 -
@bioklutzI find that higher protein and fat help keep me full. Not remotely low carb, just dropping it slightly. It might also be time to up calories a bit more. That should happen over time if you are building lean mass.
This applies to me as well. Beyond the macro goals, for me the texture of foods and "chew factor" seem to have a decent influence. Fiber also seems to come into the picture some. I love most of my carbs, but few do much for me as far as keeping me feeling full.
But in any case, experiment more before resorting to hot sauce on your arms. It looks like you've worked hard to get them where they are.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »A solid article that I came across recently.
http://shreddedbyscience.com/can-you-gain-weight-in-a-calorie-deficit/
Thanks for this, it was a great read.
Anything by Helms is normally quality, but this is one of his that I've not seen before...0 -
Good info; I'll have to check it out. Recomp is on hold for at least until after end of Jan as I broke my Rt wrist last Wed (9 Dec) and have to use my left for everything (I'm Rt handed--figures); so very little exercising and I won't be writing much on here until then. When I go back to the doc will ask what I exercising I can do until then. If I'm not back by next week, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone.
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