Weight loss flow chart... 2.0!
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Nah it's good to dumb it diwnlemonlionheart wrote: »
Yours is awesome, mine is derivative. But I know MFP....explanations longer than 4 words often get...."lost"....
:drinker:
It can be good to have a 'dumbed down' version as backup
I do have to implore you though, please change the top box to 'losing' instead of 'loosing'! Drives me up the wall :P0 -
lemonlionheart wrote: »Nah it's good to dumb it diwnlemonlionheart wrote: »
Yours is awesome, mine is derivative. But I know MFP....explanations longer than 4 words often get...."lost"....
:drinker:
It can be good to have a 'dumbed down' version as backup
I do have to implore you though, please change the top box to 'losing' instead of 'loosing'! Drives me up the wall :P
It's that way intentionally, in homage to about 8 billion MFP threads.
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lemonlionheart wrote: »Nah it's good to dumb it diwnlemonlionheart wrote: »
Yours is awesome, mine is derivative. But I know MFP....explanations longer than 4 words often get...."lost"....
:drinker:
It can be good to have a 'dumbed down' version as backup
I do have to implore you though, please change the top box to 'losing' instead of 'loosing'! Drives me up the wall :P
It's that way intentionally, in homage to about 8 billion MFP threads.
Haha I was wondering! Sometimes it's tricky to identify sarcasm on the internet.0 -
UltimateRBF wrote: »UltimateRBF wrote: »Spoiler'd because longlemonlionheart wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »
I am talking about months, not a weeks. It's a common issue.lemonlionheart wrote: »Mezzie1024 wrote: »Excellent! Just a heads up: in the medication bubble, you spelled "medication" "meTication" once.
Fixed:
Working out 2hrs a day, at 1200 calories a day(eating) no weight loss. WHere is that in the chart??
It was actually the very first question. It had only been one week.
If someone is truly eating 1200 calories, working out 2 hours a day and somehow failing to lose ANY weight over two months, I'd go less with 'common issue' and more towards 'medical mystery'. Seriously, they should do scientific experiments on these oddballs, figure out if they can somehow extract this superpower and give it to starving kids in Africa so they can net 100 calories a day and not lose any body fat.
It's very common, do a search on forums for 1200 calories a day and not losing weight. The results are cause of excess stress, too much exercise, too little food. etc.. It has happened to me as well as many others. A 300lbs man(at one point me) eating 1,300 calories a day and not losing weight, makes no sense. I know. I categorize weight loss in to 3 categories
1. Moderate calorie deficit(weight loss)
2. Extreme calorie deficit(stall out)
3. Starvation(weight loss muscle and fat)
There was a good post with a ton of references of this issue, it was by taso42, he has been gone a long time, maybe one of the veterans has the link, they know the one i am talking about, the 1200 calorie diet with no weight loss.
Yep, there are a lot of '1200 calories and no weight loss' threads. I posted in one just yesterday. 95% of the time it turns out to be logging errors.
Ashley Swoboda fitness competitor/model was doing cardio 2hrs a day(7days a week).
"During my contest prep last year, I was the epitome of a treadmill slave. I thought all the work would be worth it; I was sure it was helping prepare my best physique for the stage."
"My stomach growled 24/7. I had a hard time sleeping and woke several times throughout the night. I usually resorted to taking Advil PM to fall asleep. I had severe mood swings, was depressed, and had no energy. I felt like walking death. The smallest things brought me to tears or anger."
Thiago Alves gains roughly 30lbs in 3hrs...
http://www.mmamania.com/2012/3/2/2839067/ufc-fx-2-weigh-in-results-thiago-alves-gains-30-pounds-three-hours-dolce-diet
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beat-metabolic-damage-get-ripped-with-hiit.html
And I said as my case as well, as well as many others. In my case, at 300lbs my metabolism is sluggish my metabolic rate was around 3000 calories. I was eating around 1,200 calories a day. I was logging highly accurately. With a calorie deficit of 1800 calories, I dropped 10lbs in a few days, but after that weight didn't budge at all. I keep at it for 5 weeks, starving, i said it's not worth it. had 2 refeed days in a row gained back those 10lbs...
What would you tell all of us? We're "logging inaccurately?" I had no medical issues. I lost 90lbs after that point with a less aggressive calorie deficit. Ahsley(first person i quoted) got her weight loss going again by increasing her caloric intake... This wasn't "inaccurate" logging. If she was off by lets say 20% a day. She would still by off by 20% a day if she increased her calories.
Let me clarify something, I don't believe in "metabolic damage" it's more complicated than that. It's a phenomenon called dieters edema. Lyle explains it well...
"First and foremost, I have myself written about how the odd combination of very low calories and excessive cardio can, in some people, cause problems. Some of it is metabolic which I’ll come back to. But most of it is simply due to one thing: water retention. It’s a little known fact that cortisol has cross-reactivity with the aldosterone receptor (aldosterone is the primary hormone for retaining water). But while cortisol only has about 1/100th the affinity for the receptor, there can be about 10,000 times as much. We know that cortisol causes water retention (Cushing’s patients who are often on high-dose cortisone have this problem).
Now, dieting raises cortisol.
Cardio raises cortisol.
Mental stress raises cortisol.
So combine your typical headcase female dieter (who is already mentally stressing themselves out), add a massive caloric restriction, add tons of cardio. And cortisol goes through the roof. And this is worse in some personality types. You can always tell them on Internet forums, they type in all caps with lots of !!! (Subject line: NEED TO LOSE WEIGHT NOW!!!). You can sense the stress in their life in how they write. And what these people do other than mentally stressing themselves out is further physically stress themselves out. And when weight loss stops, they stress harder, cut calories harder, do more cardio. And make it worse."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/
so once again it's not always about "being more accurate"
ETA: So what I would suggest is possibly a section that addresses the issue of people who are doing low calorie diets with a lot of exercise. Solution, slowly increase their calories.
^^^ Hey dude, do you think you could maybe not derail one single thread? Maybe try?
The subject is the flow chart is missing something, the situation of high calorie deficit and/or a ton of cardio. We're on topic. You making a post like you just did is off topic. but frankly, I don't care if the chart is not complete. I'll just let it be, do some research on the subject, as I have done. You will see what I see. Have a good night.
LOL. Well I defer to your knowledge of off topic posts.
Suggestion: Some people cut too much calories, enter a deficit, add on large amounts of exercise and this results in no weight loss for weeks or months due to a stress mediated responses*. Eating a little more or cutting back on exercise can resolve this. Or one can wait it out.
For the chart this could be:
"did you change your exercise by a lot?"
- yes ----> relax, changes in exercise may lead to initial weight retention, especially if you are significantly cutting, either give yourself more recovery time, ramp up slowly or fuel your workouts.
*tissue edema and inflammatory response is normal for recovery, it flares up quite a bit in some people starting a new program. Also acute cortisol increases (exercise, stress, lack of sleep) leads to water retention. Get your sleep, drink water.0 -
Also, I'd switch around diamond one and two. "stick to the plan" should always be AFTER you've verified that the plan actually include logging, weighing and a reasonable deficit. Don't stick to a bad plan.0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Also, I'd switch around diamond one and two. "stick to the plan" should always be AFTER you've verified that the plan actually include logging, weighing and a reasonable deficit. Don't stick to a bad plan.
Detailed logging is not necessary for either a "good" plan or weight loss.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Also, I'd switch around diamond one and two. "stick to the plan" should always be AFTER you've verified that the plan actually include logging, weighing and a reasonable deficit. Don't stick to a bad plan.
Detailed logging is not necessary for either a "good" plan or weight loss.
So remove that diamond? Nah. Check logging first.
It's like going on a trip. Do you identify first where are we going and how are we getting there? Or do you wander about in the desert for a while?
In terms of wasted time, it makes sense to get your logging ducks all lined up early and not wait 3 weeks to come back and discover - "oh, hasn't been logging. "Basic process optimization.0 -
I agree with this. The person will most likely not stick to the plan if he sees no results , and 80%(random number given by me) of the people that don't lose weight,in a higher weight, is because they don't log accurately.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Also, I'd switch around diamond one and two. "stick to the plan" should always be AFTER you've verified that the plan actually include logging, weighing and a reasonable deficit. Don't stick to a bad plan.
Detailed logging is not necessary for either a "good" plan or weight loss.
So remove that diamond? Nah. Check logging first.
It's like going on a trip. Do you identify first where are we going and how are we getting there? Or do you wander about in the desert for a while?
In terms of wasted time, it makes sense to get your logging ducks all lined up early and not wait 3 weeks to come back and discover - "oh, hasn't been logging. "Basic process optimization.
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Love it!0
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snickerscharlie wrote: »oh....nevermind. I'm not taking the bait.
cosign0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »It's like going on a trip. Do you identify first where are we going and how are we getting there?
Mostly not, usually.Or do you wander about in the desert for a while?
Yes. For me vacations are about discovery, and that means minimal planning. Many do the same - many do differently.
If you prefer an alternate flow - I'm totally cool with you making your own version and putting diamonds wherever you like. :drinker:
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I just had a mini nerdgasm, I love flowcharts!0
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I didn't see @EvgeniZyntx post originally. I went back to see it. It's a good post. I am glad someone who is respected chimed in on the subject. I am not sure if a doctor would look in to cortisol levels for lack of weight loss. They might look in to hormonal issues which can address cortisol in general, but I am not sure if a doctor would be aware of the effects of cortisol on weight loss.Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Here is a more complete version. It also addresses the issue where people's TDEE is lower than estimated and they're doing everything right, in this case they wouldn't be losing weight either. Also addresses the issue of having realistic expectations for weight loss and a reasonable calorie deficit.
Due to the size it might be slightly blurry for some. If you have difficulty seeing it, here's the link, you can zoom in on it.The resolution is high, so it's nice and clear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MlEgY5q9lgSjJzeUJsNFBlazA/view?usp=sharing
This is good too, and it additionally addresses the potential problem of excess cortisol raised by yourself and @EvgeniZyntx . I was initially thinking this scenario would be covered by the 'see your doctor' section of the original chart, but on reflection I'm not sure if this is something that would even be routinely checked by a GP?
Plus getting accurate cortisol results, in my experience, can be quite a complex matter. Personally I've had several different tests done over the years at the request of my endocrinologist, from the simple 9am blood draw to one where I was hospitalized as a day patient and given insulin injections to check the cortisol response over a period of hours. So yeah, I think this is something a GP could easily miss.0 -
Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition0 -
Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition
Haha, that was in my initial version, but changed it after getting some other feedback... can't even remember why at this point. Anyway, I feel that since this is to be used in a forum, any additional concerns can still be addressed by people. I tried to keep it as simple as possible but it's still too wordy!0 -
lemonlionheart wrote: »Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition
Haha, that was in my initial version, but changed it after getting some other feedback... can't even remember why at this point. Anyway, I feel that since this is to be used in a forum, any additional concerns can still be addressed by people. I tried to keep it as simple as possible but it's still too wordy!
Try "as low as $10", or "< $20" for low word count
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lemonlionheart wrote: »Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition
Haha, that was in my initial version, but changed it after getting some other feedback... can't even remember why at this point. Anyway, I feel that since this is to be used in a forum, any additional concerns can still be addressed by people. I tried to keep it as simple as possible but it's still too wordy!
Try "as low as $10", or "< $20" for low word count
I think I'm happy with the version I have for the time being. I've already updated it 5 times haha, and I've been procrastinating getting my uni work done!0 -
lemonlionheart wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition
Haha, that was in my initial version, but changed it after getting some other feedback... can't even remember why at this point. Anyway, I feel that since this is to be used in a forum, any additional concerns can still be addressed by people. I tried to keep it as simple as possible but it's still too wordy!
Try "as low as $10", or "< $20" for low word count
I think I'm happy with the version I have for the time being. I've already updated it 5 times haha, and I've been procrastinating getting my uni work done!
Well, you of course do not have to implement every suggestion you're given. However a) you're still reading the thread. And b) making the update would have taken less time than typing the response. You don't have to give me a reason. It's your post, do what you want. 0 -
lemonlionheart wrote: »lemonlionheart wrote: »Same feedback as for v1, excellent vision, phenomenal concept. Don't over complicate it. It's great!
Ok I do have some feedback hehe. So you mention invest in a food scale. I've been seeing and loving some posts that highlight the cost of one being around $10, $12, or $20. Many of the people being helped do not realize the cost and think it's this huge thing that'll cost them a lot. If you could somehow briefly highlight the price range, that could be a nice addition
Haha, that was in my initial version, but changed it after getting some other feedback... can't even remember why at this point. Anyway, I feel that since this is to be used in a forum, any additional concerns can still be addressed by people. I tried to keep it as simple as possible but it's still too wordy!
Try "as low as $10", or "< $20" for low word count
I think I'm happy with the version I have for the time being. I've already updated it 5 times haha, and I've been procrastinating getting my uni work done!
Well, you of course do not have to implement every suggestion you're given. However a) you're still reading the thread. And b) making the update would have taken less time than typing the response. You don't have to give me a reason. It's your post, do what you want.
It takes a bit longer due to the program I'm using not being that intuitive, and an issue I had where I lost the raw file of the version with the bolded text. I'm still taking on feedback, I just might not get around to making any more changes until the end of the week. I was changing and exporting it each time someone made a comment before, but I'd rather wait and make all the changes at once 0 -
Awesome flow chart!!!!!!0
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Chrysalid2014 wrote: »
I didn't see @EvgeniZyntx post originally. I went back to see it. It's a good post. I am glad someone who is respected chimed in on the subject. I am not sure if a doctor would look in to cortisol levels for lack of weight loss. They might look in to hormonal issues which can address cortisol in general, but I am not sure if a doctor would be aware of the effects of cortisol on weight loss.Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Here is a more complete version. It also addresses the issue where people's TDEE is lower than estimated and they're doing everything right, in this case they wouldn't be losing weight either. Also addresses the issue of having realistic expectations for weight loss and a reasonable calorie deficit.
Due to the size it might be slightly blurry for some. If you have difficulty seeing it, here's the link, you can zoom in on it.The resolution is high, so it's nice and clear.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2MlEgY5q9lgSjJzeUJsNFBlazA/view?usp=sharing
This is good too, and it additionally addresses the potential problem of excess cortisol raised by yourself and @EvgeniZyntx . I was initially thinking this scenario would be covered by the 'see your doctor' section of the original chart, but on reflection I'm not sure if this is something that would even be routinely checked by a GP?
Plus getting accurate cortisol results, in my experience, can be quite a complex matter. Personally I've had several different tests done over the years at the request of my endocrinologist, from the simple 9am blood draw to one where I was hospitalized as a day patient and given insulin injections to check the cortisol response over a period of hours. So yeah, I think this is something a GP could easily miss.
In general, not necessary for someone stuck in weightloss. It's usually an acute response to a new *aggressive* program, new diet. Wait it out can work or just eating a bit more, drinking water, getting sleep dialed in. Seeing a doc after a few weeks doesn't make sense if it's only for that.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »It's like going on a trip. Do you identify first where are we going and how are we getting there?
Mostly not, usually.Or do you wander about in the desert for a while?
Yes. For me vacations are about discovery, and that means minimal planning. Many do the same - many do differently.
If you prefer an alternate flow - I'm totally cool with you making your own version and putting diamonds wherever you like. :drinker:
Uh huh. So you leave home without even knowing where the airport, coffee shop or even the road is. Otay. Good luck with that. :huh:
My reco was to the op, originator of the flow chart - not to the various water-downed (and, in my own opinion) weaker versions. But thanks for the permission.
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Awesome. 0
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(Just had to post in this thread again since I love the OP's flowchart so much!)0 -
Excellent flow chart, should be pinned. BUT - the questions will still be asked 0
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Nicely done! I'm sharing in another weight-loss support group. http://redd.it/3911qu0
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Excellent flow chart, should be pinned. BUT - the questions will still be asked
I don't need this flowchart for myself, but I'm bookmarking it because it's a good way to help others in my conversation.
After months of helping others, I'm convinced that many people prefer to have a conversation about themselves, and -- for whatever reason -- they prefer not to read and research through 90% of data they don't need to find the 10% that they do need. That's cool.
Great tool, either way!
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