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Can't gain muscle on diet. What??
discretekim
Posts: 314 Member
I've seen this a few times today. It makes no sense. I am losing weight and I know for a fact I am getting stronger. My muscles seem to be growing too getting larger and more firm.
Why is this a common idea? Is there some research on this??
Why is this a common idea? Is there some research on this??
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Replies
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More protein less carbs = muscles0
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Generally you can't except for some newbie gains if your heavy lifting. What you think is muscles getting bigger is probably just them becoming more visible because you're losing fat. Think of it like this your eating at a calorie deficit to lose weight to build muscle you need something to build with if you're at a calorie deficit there is nothing to build with. It's like trying to build a house with no bricks.
Also to add it really isn't as easy as some people think to build muscle it takes a lot of work with consistent progressive heavy lifting with an adequate diet.0 -
I am sure more science people who know better will come through... but these main points will come out:
1) getting stronger is not the same as gaining muscle. Gaining muscle refers to increasing size, not strength.
2) muscles appear bigger and more defined when the fat around them disappears. So losing weight makes muscles you already have "show up", not gain.
3) muscles only "grow" (as in physically bigger) if there is something feeding them - i.e. calories and protein. Take measurements to know if they actually got physcially larger. You need a surplus of calories just like you need a surplus to gain fat. cant make something from nothing, so if burning all your calories, there is nothing left to "grow".
4) None of that applies in your first few months of lifting heavy. Newbies can actually gain some limited muscle while eating at a deficit. It doesnt last.0 -
isulo_kura wrote: »Generally you can't except for some newbie gains if your heavy lifting. What you think is muscles getting bigger is probably just them becoming more visible because you're losing fat. Think of it like this your eating at a calorie deficit to lose weight to build muscle you need something to build with if you're at a calorie deficit there is nothing to build with. It's like trying to build a house with no bricks.
Also to add it really isn't as easy as some people think to build muscle it takes a lot of work with consistent progressive heavy lifting with an adequate diet.
This!!!
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discretekim wrote: »I've seen this a few times today. It makes no sense. I am losing weight and I know for a fact I am getting stronger. My muscles seem to be growing too getting larger and more firm.
Why is this a common idea? Is there some research on this??
So there's a few things for purposes of clarity here:
Strength adaptations aren't necessarily an indicator of hypertrophy (muscle growth). There's a big neurological component to gaining strength an additionally when we measure strength in a gym we are typically measuring it in the context of executing a skill, so for example measuring the strength in the squat consists of measuring your ability to execute the skill of squatting. My point is that there is a skill component as well.
So there certainly are cases where people get stronger without necessarily gaining muscle.
However, it's also true that people like to take grey area concepts and turn them into black and white concepts and in the case of "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" that's exactly what has happened in my opinion.
There are circumstances where it's possible to gain muscle mass in a deficit. If you're new to lifting, if you're over-fat, if you're a previously experienced athlete returning to training, those changes go up substantially.
But it's not a black and white scenario where you definitely can't gain muscle without a surplus of calories.0 -
Getting stronger is not the same thing as gaining physical muscle in terms of size.
There are a few exceptions to this- typically new lifters WILL see some growth- this is not an increases in muscle mass- but neurological adaptation.
Extremely over weight people as well you'll see this.
Older lifts return usually can usually see some gains as well.
But after several months- you cannot gain SIZE on a deficit. and after a while you're going to tape out strength gains on a deficit as well.0 -
This gets into a few different issues.
First, increased strength does not necessarily mean increased muscle. Your strength will increase due to neuromuscular adaptations made due to doing an exercise repeatedly.
Second, when you start lifting weights, you will notice your muscles seem to get bigger pretty quickly. This is due to your muscles retaining water to help during the repair process. It's commonly referred to as "pump."
Third, building muscle while in a caloric deficit is difficult but not impossible. It is generally limited to a few distinct groups--overweight beginners (the less overweight you are the less likely it will happen) and returning lifters.
Fourth, women build muscle really slowly even when eating in a caloric surplus. Think 1-2 pounds a month. If you are lucky enough to be building muscle in a deficit, chances are the rate will be slower than that. It's not something that is going to be too noticeable within a short period.0 -
strength gains do not equal mass gains. So you can train your muscles to be stronger i.e. do more with the same, but this does not mean that you are adding new mass. The term is neuromuscular adaptation, I believe.
you may think that your muscles look bigger, but this is probably from a combination of a) your muscles are retaining water so they look bigger; b) you are losing body fat, which is making existing muscle show.
Those that are new to lifting can experience newbie gains while lifting in a deficit but this usually only lasts about six months to a year.
So if you are new to lifting you may have some newbie gains...
New lifters muscle would be a combination of newbie gains + water retention + less body fat
Those not new to lifting appearance of muscle = water retention + less body fat
hope that helps.
the only way to truly add appreciate mass is to run a bulk cycle and eat in a caloric surplus.0 -
so if you eat at a deficit and lift weights you will never get any bigger muscles? but if you eat more to gain muscle wouldnt you also gain back the fat? I am curious as I am trying to get rid of the fat around my middle but I lift weights because I also want to gain muscle. obviously I am not doing too good.0
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so if you eat at a deficit and lift weights you will never get any bigger muscles?
It depends. If you are very lean and getting leaner, and you're an experienced trainee, it's very unlikely. But that context fits the vast minority of people on this site.
It is also less effective/less efficient compared to eating in a surplus.
but if you eat more to gain muscle wouldnt you also gain back the fat? I am curious as I am trying to get rid of the fat around my middle but I lift weights because I also want to gain muscle. obviously I am not doing too good.
Keep lifting weights. Regardless of whether or not you gain muscle mass while dieting, the act of resistance training will be preservative of muscle meaning you will end up with more muscle at the end of the diet than you would have were you to not lift at all (not lifting on a diet = likely to lose muscle).0 -
so if you eat at a deficit and lift weights you will never get any bigger muscles? but if you eat more to gain muscle wouldnt you also gain back the fat? I am curious as I am trying to get rid of the fat around my middle but I lift weights because I also want to gain muscle. obviously I am not doing too good.
yes, if you run a bulk you will gain fat and muscle. Typical ration is 1:1 ..so 10 pounds gained will equal 5 pounds of muscle and 5 pounds of fat. You then run a cut to cut the fat off and preserve muscle.
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To a degree. That's often why people go through bulk/cut cycles. Muscle gain isn't a speedy process. It takes time and effort. Some fat is gained but after the bulk, dropping the fat will make the new "gains" more visible.0
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as a girl I was a flat stomach which I still have fat because it sticks out so I wouldnt want to gain more fat. but I have real thin arms and legs which I want muscle. so I finding this very confusing on what to do.
*sorry op I just used your thread*0 -
It is really confusing. I think you can gain some muscle on a diet. Especially if you haven't worked out much before.0
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discretekim wrote: »It is really confusing. I think you can gain some muscle on a diet. Especially if you haven't worked out much before.
You are correct.0 -
as a girl I was a flat stomach which I still have fat because it sticks out so I wouldnt want to gain more fat. but I have real thin arms and legs which I want muscle. so I finding this very confusing on what to do.
*sorry op I just used your thread*
Continue to monitor your calorie intake, continue to slowly lose weight. Do some resistance training (lift weights).0 -
Michael190lbs wrote: »
@SideSteel can probably explain this better to me..
but when bulking you want to get majority of cals from carbs because of the insulin spike that they produce, which signals your body to start adding new muscle.
when cutting you want to reduce carbs down and increase protein, because protein will preserve your existing mass.
This is my basic understanding..
I am sure sidesteel can elaborate on the mechanics of it.0 -
as a girl I was a flat stomach which I still have fat because it sticks out so I wouldnt want to gain more fat. but I have real thin arms and legs which I want muscle. so I finding this very confusing on what to do.
*sorry op I just used your thread*
Continue to monitor your calorie intake, continue to slowly lose weight. Do some resistance training (lift weights).
thanks, that is what I am doing now.
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It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?0
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Michael190lbs wrote: »
@SideSteel can probably explain this better to me..
but when bulking you want to get majority of cals from carbs because of the insulin spike that they produce, which signals your body to start adding new muscle.
when cutting you want to reduce carbs down and increase protein, because protein will preserve your existing mass.
This is my basic understanding..
I am sure sidesteel can elaborate on the mechanics of it.
That's pretty much it. Insulin and insulin spikes are a requirement to grow muscle.
When you're LOSING weight- having more protein will help maintain.
I agree @SideSteel can explain better.. but people way brighter than I am say that's how it works- and it makes sense- then I'm cool with it- I get glassed eye after to many conversations anyway.0 -
460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
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460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
I believe it is just newbie...
but most newbies would probably fall into the "obese beginner" category..that is how Lyle Mcdonald categorizes it...0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.0 -
I feel like I read someone where those were 3 categories- they could overlap- but they were were categories or exceptions.
or perhaps it's not 3 distinct columns and more like a Venn diagram.
LIke a leaner newbie will see gains- where as an obese person new or otherwise is probably going to see MORE gains relative to the leaner newbie.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.0
This discussion has been closed.
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