Can't gain muscle on diet. What??
Replies
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I had some noob gains on a deficit before I started the recomp. I was not obese. Just throwing that out there.0
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.
Here's his Q&A on it.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
More fat stores would likely mean that it's more likely that you will oxidize fat for fuel when you're not gettin enough through the diet.
I would think that a lean person in a deficit would not be able to have as much fat available to do that, so it's more likely that they're fighting to hang on to muscle.0 -
You'll find most people on here talk about muscle gain and calories as an on/off switch because it is easier to follow and discourages new people from getting high hopes about breaking the normal rules.
I'd compare it that calories are a lot more like a dimmer switch that won't actually directly limit muscle growth - what they limit is protein synthesis. So the first priority of protein synthesis is maintaining what exists, and if you have left overs (you're new to lifting and don't have a lot mass to preserve) then it is possible to grow some muscles, but eventually it will add up and blow your synthesis budget.
It is honestly a bit like the process of growing from very overweight to less overweight but in reverse. The more overweight you are, the easier it is to create a calorie deficit, the faster you'll lose, but as weight comes down, maintaining deficits gets harder, losing weight becomes slower, etc.0 -
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.
Here's his Q&A on it.
thanks, I had previously read that. I meant stuff in addition to it 0 -
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
is 4300 a surplus for you?0 -
that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
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that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
No, either circumstances would allow for it; as well as those who are "retraining". As @SideSteel pointed out as well, it is still possible even in advanced trainees (there are just many factors which must line up) and it is not nearly as optimal as focusing on a total surplus.
Edit - Found there article where Lyle discusses:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/size-of-deficit-and-muscle-catabolism-qa.html/
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Does it really matter? Lift heavy, eat right, sleep, repeat.
When you are eating in a deficit you lift weights to try to keep the muscle you have. When you are fat, believe it or not you have a lot of muscle under there that carries your fat body around. Have you ever seen an ex fat guy do calf raises. I am an ex fat guy, and I can crush the calf raises.
When you lose weight, unfortunately you lose muscle with the fat. You lift weights to try to combat that and hold onto the muscle that you have.
What you are experiencing is CNS adaptation, and strength gains from working your muscles again in a manner that is making them stronger.
Don't get caught up in worrying about not gaining muscle while eating in a deficit. It is all static. Lift weights, hit your macros and get good sleep and you will keep heading in the right direction. You should be able to do that for awhile before you actually hit the wall and then you will understand how food and lifting effect each other and why people say to gain muscle, you have to eat.0 -
that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
The carbs in the average diet is considerably higher than 35%. More in the 50% range.
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.
Here's his Q&A on it.
thanks, I had previously read that. I meant stuff in addition to it
Ah, okay. It's pretty much my fallback article on it. I haven't gotten any of his books to see what else he says.0 -
that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
potato - potAto
Still a bunch of carbs, and not sure that is what the original person meant when they said eat "less carbs".0 -
that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
potato - potAto
Still a bunch of carbs, and not sure that is what the original person meant when they said eat "less carbs".
Sorry but if someone is eating 15% to 25% that is less carbs considering they could be eating 60%.
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that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
potato - potAto
Still a bunch of carbs, and not sure that is what the original person meant when they said eat "less carbs".
Sorry but if someone is eating 15% to 25% that is less carbs considering they could be eating 60%.
Thanks. I was unaware that 60% was greater than 15% or 25%.0 -
You can eat full maintenance calories for 3 days and deficit for four. Or take a week to eat maintenance and lift hard. Then deficit a week.
But at the same moment in time? Not likely.
I do a 3 and 4 split for one week and then diet cardio the next week with moderate lifting.
Over a year and a half I have added 15 or so lbs of muscle and lost around 140 lbs of fat. Net weight loss of 125.
It required paying attention to macros and staying on track.
It has slowed now to a one pound a week loss and a pound a month muscle gain. And I'm happy with that.
The fat coming off emphasizes muscle more than you might expect.
It is a long distance run more than a sprint. Some say to drop down to your desired body fat percentage before working hard on building.
Check Muscle Fitness Her
There is a body type online quiz and it will give you ideas on the best workout strategy for your body type in a general way.
They have lots of sample workouts
Have fun with it!
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that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
potato - potAto
Still a bunch of carbs, and not sure that is what the original person meant when they said eat "less carbs".
Sorry but if someone is eating 15% to 25% that is less carbs considering they could be eating 60%.
Thanks. I was unaware that 60% was greater than 15% or 25%.
It's all relative.
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460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Thanks, I was thinking newbie or like me, it’s been 15 years since I was lifting. I forgot about chemicals and hormones coming into play like testosterone, and insulin. I was trying to simplify things again. Guess I’ll start googling to start learning again, probably been some new studies since the 90’s. Hope I have enough testosterone left to build some muscles when I’m done dieting
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Ooh that could be I tend to eat more on the weekends. I didn't even think of that. Glad to have a way to view that as a positive lol. 0
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discretekim wrote: »It is really confusing. I think you can gain some muscle on a diet. Especially if you haven't worked out much before.
None of what has been posted, at least that I read, says differently, that would be newbie gains. They are generally not that substantial and the rate of increase diminishes fairly rapidly. You will maintain the muscle you have better with heavy lifting, and remember carrying around a bunch of extra fat requires muscle.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »discretekim wrote: »It is really confusing. I think you can gain some muscle on a diet. Especially if you haven't worked out much before.
None of what has been posted, at least that I read, says differently, that would be newbie gains. They are generally not that substantial and the rate of increase diminishes fairly rapidly. You will maintain the muscle you have better with heavy lifting, and remember carrying around a bunch of extra fat requires muscle.
Yeah that was me summarizing what had been posted so far...0 -
So, I'm obese (215lbs) and I've been lifting for 2 months now (down 10lbs total)
My bench has gone from 65lb to 85lb and I've seen increases in all lifts. I am eating a significant calorie deficit depending on the amt of exercise I have that day.
Will there be a point in my weight loss where I have to stop increasing the weight I'm able to lift?0 -
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
is 4300 a surplus for you?
Id say it's very close to TDEE or slightly over. I've hit a wall for last three weeks and I think it's caloric driven. I'm at 215 body weight right now.
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Normal variances in testosterone won't really make a difference in muscle building.460mustang wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Thanks, I was thinking newbie or like me, it’s been 15 years since I was lifting. I forgot about chemicals and hormones coming into play like testosterone, and insulin. I was trying to simplify things again. Guess I’ll start googling to start learning again, probably been some new studies since the 90’s. Hope I have enough testosterone left to build some muscles when I’m done dieting
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jenniejoy07 wrote: »So, I'm obese (215lbs) and I've been lifting for 2 months now (down 10lbs total)
My bench has gone from 65lb to 85lb and I've seen increases in all lifts. I am eating a significant calorie deficit depending on the amt of exercise I have that day.
Will there be a point in my weight loss where I have to stop increasing the weight I'm able to lift?
In my experience, I did stall out on certain lifts while eating in a deficit. Bench press was the first. Even when I would take a maintenance break and then go back to eating in a deficit bench stalled out first. If I cut too much, it would decrease, but maintaining a smaller deficit allowed me to just stall (no increase/no decrease.) I don't know that that is a universal experience though.0
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