Can't gain muscle on diet. What??
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It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?0
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Michael190lbs wrote: »
@SideSteel can probably explain this better to me..
but when bulking you want to get majority of cals from carbs because of the insulin spike that they produce, which signals your body to start adding new muscle.
when cutting you want to reduce carbs down and increase protein, because protein will preserve your existing mass.
This is my basic understanding..
I am sure sidesteel can elaborate on the mechanics of it.
That's pretty much it. Insulin and insulin spikes are a requirement to grow muscle.
When you're LOSING weight- having more protein will help maintain.
I agree @SideSteel can explain better.. but people way brighter than I am say that's how it works- and it makes sense- then I'm cool with it- I get glassed eye after to many conversations anyway.0 -
460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
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460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
I believe it is just newbie...
but most newbies would probably fall into the "obese beginner" category..that is how Lyle Mcdonald categorizes it...0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.0 -
I feel like I read someone where those were 3 categories- they could overlap- but they were were categories or exceptions.
or perhaps it's not 3 distinct columns and more like a Venn diagram.
LIke a leaner newbie will see gains- where as an obese person new or otherwise is probably going to see MORE gains relative to the leaner newbie.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.0 -
I had some noob gains on a deficit before I started the recomp. I was not obese. Just throwing that out there.0
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.
Here's his Q&A on it.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
More fat stores would likely mean that it's more likely that you will oxidize fat for fuel when you're not gettin enough through the diet.
I would think that a lean person in a deficit would not be able to have as much fat available to do that, so it's more likely that they're fighting to hang on to muscle.0 -
You'll find most people on here talk about muscle gain and calories as an on/off switch because it is easier to follow and discourages new people from getting high hopes about breaking the normal rules.
I'd compare it that calories are a lot more like a dimmer switch that won't actually directly limit muscle growth - what they limit is protein synthesis. So the first priority of protein synthesis is maintaining what exists, and if you have left overs (you're new to lifting and don't have a lot mass to preserve) then it is possible to grow some muscles, but eventually it will add up and blow your synthesis budget.
It is honestly a bit like the process of growing from very overweight to less overweight but in reverse. The more overweight you are, the easier it is to create a calorie deficit, the faster you'll lose, but as weight comes down, maintaining deficits gets harder, losing weight becomes slower, etc.0 -
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
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PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
or maybe I am wrong and Jo is right?
I believe it is relevant. Lyle McDonald phrases it as "overfat beginner." So whether that means obese or simply overweight, it's hard to tell. But it certainly indicates that plain old newbs are not as likely to have muscle gains if they are eating in a deficit.
it would be interesting to see some more literature on this.
Here's his Q&A on it.
thanks, I had previously read that. I meant stuff in addition to it 0 -
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
is 4300 a surplus for you?0 -
that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
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that would be 375 grams of carbs. Can't imagine that would ever be considered "less".
I can gain muscle while eating more protein and less carbs. So you cannot say it's wrong. It may not be optimal for most but it's certainly doable. I never eat over 35% carbs. I eat 4300 calories a day on average and I can gain muscle just fine and maintain close to 10% bf.
Well..I never eat over that. I usually in the 25% range. Last year I ate in the 15% range to cut and have maintained it so far at 25%
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