Can't gain muscle on diet. What??
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discretekim wrote: »I've seen this a few times today. It makes no sense. I am losing weight and I know for a fact I am getting stronger. My muscles seem to be growing too getting larger and more firm.
Why is this a common idea? Is there some research on this??
So there's a few things for purposes of clarity here:
Strength adaptations aren't necessarily an indicator of hypertrophy (muscle growth). There's a big neurological component to gaining strength an additionally when we measure strength in a gym we are typically measuring it in the context of executing a skill, so for example measuring the strength in the squat consists of measuring your ability to execute the skill of squatting. My point is that there is a skill component as well.
So there certainly are cases where people get stronger without necessarily gaining muscle.
However, it's also true that people like to take grey area concepts and turn them into black and white concepts and in the case of "you can't gain muscle in a deficit" that's exactly what has happened in my opinion.
There are circumstances where it's possible to gain muscle mass in a deficit. If you're new to lifting, if you're over-fat, if you're a previously experienced athlete returning to training, those changes go up substantially.
But it's not a black and white scenario where you definitely can't gain muscle without a surplus of calories.
+1
There's also the disagreement with what constitutes "gaining muscle". Adding 4-8 lb of muscle is doable for many (most?) people while in a calorie deficit. And for many people, that's all they ever want or need. But the discussion tends to be defined by the goals of power lifters/body builders, so the average person is often misled.
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Ha. I am completely confused.
Also confused by how PeterJones4 posted it when his account was deactivated after his first post in this thread.
I think that all of the MFP crazytown hijinks have fried my brain today.
peter jones 4 is acutely PU_239 it appears the mods finally cracked down or he figured that out and deactivated his other account...
either way it is a win.0 -
There is a limit to the total amount of lean mass anyone can put on their body regardless of calories consumed. This limit changes with use of anabolic-androgenic steroids and there are mathematical formulas available to calculate an estimate of this max for steroid-free athletes as well as steroid users.
As you become more trained and closer to the maximum for your body, it becomes more difficult to increase muscle because you are reaching the limit. The amount of lean muscle attainable is also positively correlated with total body weight and linked to gender and age. These related factors are not always considered when arguing whether or not a caloric deficit can produce lean muscle mass, but they do provide foundation for the argument that new lifters and those with less muscle mass to start are able to build more easily than those reaching the maximum.0 -
PeterJones4 wrote: »
False, even if I was Pu, I would still be here right, calling out the non sense you guys preach. So you're right, it would be a win win for Pu, if I was Pu.
Ha. I am completely confused.
Also confused by how PeterJones4 posted it when his account was deactivated after his first post in this thread.
I think that all of the MFP crazytown hijinks have fried my brain today.
peter jones 4 is acutely PU_239 it appears the mods finally cracked down or he figured that out and deactivated his other account...
either way it is a win.
What would that nonsense be again?0 -
I've decided since no description was given overfat means this: lower than average ratio of muscle to fat based than average for height and weight and gender.0
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Neuromuscular adaptivity. One can get stronger while losing weight. If you've not exercised before or are returning to exercise after a layoff, the muscle get "swole" and harder due to more water in them.discretekim wrote: »I've seen this a few times today. It makes no sense. I am losing weight and I know for a fact I am getting stronger. My muscles seem to be growing too getting larger and more firm.
Why is this a common idea? Is there some research on this??
Building muscle doesn't come from nothing. It has to come from material that can build it and a supply of calories high enough to support hypertrophy............hence a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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If you lift while in deficit and you're not obese (higher chance to build muscle due to reserve amount of calories), the chances of building any muscles are really really low.so if you eat at a deficit and lift weights you will never get any bigger muscles? but if you eat more to gain muscle wouldnt you also gain back the fat? I am curious as I am trying to get rid of the fat around my middle but I lift weights because I also want to gain muscle. obviously I am not doing too good.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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PeterJones4 wrote: »PeterJones4 wrote: »
False, even if I was Pu, I would still be here right, calling out the non sense you guys preach. So you're right, it would be a win win for Pu, if I was Pu.
Ha. I am completely confused.
Also confused by how PeterJones4 posted it when his account was deactivated after his first post in this thread.
I think that all of the MFP crazytown hijinks have fried my brain today.
peter jones 4 is acutely PU_239 it appears the mods finally cracked down or he figured that out and deactivated his other account...
either way it is a win.
What would that nonsense be again?
In this topic, that only the obese put on muscle mass while in a deficit. Also that protein and/or carbs build muscle.
I guess I missed where that was preached.0 -
PeterJones4 wrote: »PeterJones4 wrote: »
False, even if I was Pu, I would still be here right, calling out the non sense you guys preach. So you're right, it would be a win win for Pu, if I was Pu.
Ha. I am completely confused.
Also confused by how PeterJones4 posted it when his account was deactivated after his first post in this thread.
I think that all of the MFP crazytown hijinks have fried my brain today.
peter jones 4 is acutely PU_239 it appears the mods finally cracked down or he figured that out and deactivated his other account...
either way it is a win.
What would that nonsense be again?
In this topic, that only the obese put on muscle mass while in a deficit. Also that protein and/or carbs build muscle.
I guess I missed where that was preached.
Nope, you didn't miss it. It's just not there.
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PeterJones4 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Trained athletes eating in a deficit and gaining LBM:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3519021&d=1310193169
Thank you so much. This looks like a paper I was actually looking for a little while ago because of this exact topic.
I'm actually going to look for a few more of these. I'm aware of one or two others but I'll have to go digging. Will likely compile them into one post or a blog entry eventually.
Helms
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/257350851_A_Systematic_Review_of_Dietary_Protein_During_Caloric_Restriction_in_Resistance_Trained_Lean_Athletes_A_Case_for_Higher_Intakes
You do realize that if DXA or Hydrostatic bodyfat testing can't differentiate between glycogen and/or water loss, that meta is completely pointless...
Completely pointless?
LMAO0 -
LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »It's simple. Muscles need calories to grow. When you eat at a deficit, you're not supplying your muscles with enough calories to stimulate any noticeable amount of growth.
Gaining strength is not the same as gaining muscle. You can do the former without he latter, which is generally what happens when you strength train while eating at a deficit.
Your muscles might look bigger, but that's only because you're shedding the fat that was covering them up - this is what women like to call "tone," and it's simply a lower body fat percentage. It has nothing to do with muscle growth.
You lift weights while losing weight to maintain your current lean muscle mass, not increase it. That requires eating at least to maintenance, and even that takes forever. This is why people bulk - to gain mass.
Also, do you seriously have that as your profile picture? I can't even...
This.0 -
PeterJones4 wrote: »PeterJones4 wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Trained athletes eating in a deficit and gaining LBM:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3519021&d=1310193169
Thank you so much. This looks like a paper I was actually looking for a little while ago because of this exact topic.
I'm actually going to look for a few more of these. I'm aware of one or two others but I'll have to go digging. Will likely compile them into one post or a blog entry eventually.
Helms
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/257350851_A_Systematic_Review_of_Dietary_Protein_During_Caloric_Restriction_in_Resistance_Trained_Lean_Athletes_A_Case_for_Higher_Intakes
You do realize that if DXA or Hydrostatic bodyfat testing can't differentiate between glycogen and/or water loss, that meta is completely pointless...
Completely pointless?
LMAO
From the conclusionWhen analyzing the six studies reviewed to deter-mine protein intake per kilogram of FFM, it appears that the range of 2.3–3.1g/kg of FFM is the most con-sistently protective intake against losses of lean tissue. Furthermore, the goal of the athlete should be taken into account. Athletes with a lower body fat percentage, or a primary goal of maintaining maximal FFM should aim toward the higher end of this range. Those who are not as lean, or who are concerned primarily with strength and performance versus maintenance of FFM can safely aim for the lower end of this recommendation.
The greatest loss in FFM was Walberg et al., 1988. The loss was 2.7kg, roughly 6lbs. This can easily be a change in water weight/glycogen if the body fat methods can't pick this up. They can't conclude it was muscle mass. If they can't conclude that muscle mass was actually lost and not water and/or glycogen then the recommendations and the study is completely pointless. Means nothing.
I do recall the great Pu_239 was against using total mass as recommendations for protein intake. He's been saying this for a few years. This paper was done in 2014. Wow, Pu_239 is a true genius, his faulty logic can predict the future. He is a GOD like ZEUS
So, what exactly does this have to do with me linking a study where FFM increased while in a deficit? I'm so happy that you're able to pick up on the context of things.
Hi Pu, it really is you. Arguing points out of thin air as usual.... it's like you're having an argument with a fictional audience.0 -
PeterJones4 wrote: »PeterJones4 wrote: »PeterJones4 wrote: »
False, even if I was Pu, I would still be here right, calling out the non sense you guys preach. So you're right, it would be a win win for Pu, if I was Pu.
Ha. I am completely confused.
Also confused by how PeterJones4 posted it when his account was deactivated after his first post in this thread.
I think that all of the MFP crazytown hijinks have fried my brain today.
peter jones 4 is acutely PU_239 it appears the mods finally cracked down or he figured that out and deactivated his other account...
either way it is a win.
What would that nonsense be again?
In this topic, that only the obese put on muscle mass while in a deficit. Also that protein and/or carbs build muscle.
I guess I missed where that was preached.
Nope, you didn't miss it. It's just not there.
Let me remind you.PeachyPlum wrote: »460mustang wrote: »It would seem to me that if you had allot of fat and do heavy lifting that you could gain muscle while eating a deficit. Wouldn't the body use the excess fat to build muscle? Or would it use the excess fat to keep vital organs alive?
If you are referring to an obese beginner that is new to lifting, then yes they would have newbie gains.
However, I do not think that comes from taking excess fat and using it for muscle growth. My understanding is that it just comes from the fact that the muscles have not been using, stimulated, and now are being stimulated so they start to grow...
Is the obese bit relevant? Or just the fact that they're a newbie?
From what I understand it is relevant.
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jenniejoy07 wrote: »So, I'm obese (215lbs) and I've been lifting for 2 months now (down 10lbs total)
My bench has gone from 65lb to 85lb and I've seen increases in all lifts. I am eating a significant calorie deficit depending on the amt of exercise I have that day.
Will there be a point in my weight loss where I have to stop increasing the weight I'm able to lift?
Way down the road...
But there is so much more to lifting than just pushing a number of pounds
As you drop fat and maybe add a strategic bit of muscle here and there you can shape your body . It is a fun thing to look at food for not just calories but nutrient content. See your exercise as way to increase your aerobic capacity, or lower your resting heart rate. Maybe you want to raise your good cholesterol with resistance training and eating a bit more MCT content.
It is a pretty amazing journey IMO. A few knowledgable friends at the gym and a few sessions with a good trainer on occasion help me out a good bit.
I eat maintenance calories on my 3 hard lift days. Deficit the rest of the days that week. I may lift hard the next week again or go all cardio and deficit calories
It just gets down to mixing it up sometimes. I have been at it no break for a year and a half. It gets boring sometimes so I do a friends workout for s few days sometimes just to keep it interesting
You are doing great picking up a significant percentage of strength!
Awesome job all around. Stick with it.
It will be interesting to hear what your max is in 90 days.
Fat gone and muscle in its place!
Keep at it!
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