Clean Eating Question
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booksandchocolate12 wrote: »its called the socratic method. you ask someone questions to draw out the answers from them and hopefully in the process educate them as to why their thinking is not correct.
I'm a paralegal and one of the attorneys I work for always uses the Socratic method when he's trying to explain something. It can be annoying as hell, but I have to admit, I learn a lot.
It's probably best to keep in mind what happened to Socrates.
(I quite like the Socratic method, though. I once taught a law school prep class for students who wanted to be prepared for law school--typically kids from either foreign or less advantaged backgrounds--and it was really fun to be under orders to go nuts with the Socratic stuff.)0 -
Monklady123 wrote: »Seems silly when you know very well what we're talking about when we say "processed food".
I honestly have no idea, and find the way these terms are used quite strange and mystifying.
I guess one reason is that I tend to go overboard on things, so I once upon a time did refuse to eat any meat not purchased from a farm I had familiarity with, tried to be as close to a locavore as possible, etc. (Even then I didn't manage to cut out processed things and didn't use the term "clean eater," which I think is obnoxious, or preach to others about how my eating was better.)
Now I've relaxed, although I do still try to get most of my meat in such a way (ethical reasons), although I will buy frozen fish and eat at restaurants. I also try to eat as much produce as possible that's local and in season, but have accepted that being too hardcore about this would mean that I don't eat nearly enough produce in much of the year (I'm in Chicago, so not much is locally in-season in, say, January or even April).
I also intentionally include some foods that are processed (in a carton, sold in a store, often manufactured far away) in my diet because I think they are healthy. Among these (in addition to those mentioned above) are smoked fish, tinned herring/sardines, and greek yogurt (which I could make myself, but I see no reason why I shouldn't enjoy the convenience and excellent taste of Fage et al.). I also do purchase dried pasta and oatmeal and dried beans and sometimes even (gasp!) canned beans and canned tomatoes, olive oil and vinegars, olives and cheeses (I like fancy cheeses, so am not willing to limit it to what I could make myself even if I wished to be bothered), so on.
More controversially, perhaps, I see no reason why a high-quality commercially available ice cream or gelato would be worse than one I happened to make at home (as back in the day I would have done, and might still if I ever get out my ice cream maker, since it's fun). I also think it's irrational to consider food I make myself "clean" and that from the same ingredients at a restaurant or from a caterer or even packaged in a store (whether that means by WF that day or from a packaged maker that I approve of) unclean. I enjoy cooking (and wasting money at my favorite lunch places) so tend not to buy packaged meals, but I think getting snobby about all of them in general as if the ingredients were all the same and different from what you might make is foolish.
So not only is "processed" not a term that people tend to use in a consistent or rational way, but it involves a huge and varied bunch of stuff that cannot be generalized about. Thus, I wish people would be more specific as to what they mean when they say it's bad. If not, again, I'm not sure why Fage plain greek yogurt or my carton of eggs from a local farm or Maytag blue cheese is so terrible.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »In which post were you told to stuff your face with chips and ice cream.
She wasn't. And, according to her, she didn't interpret people's comments that way.
Even though people said "you can eat chips and ice cream" and she said "stuff my face with chips and ice cream".
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I try not to eat anything that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper
Who sells you eggs without a carton or unwrapped meat? In my state (and I think most states), any meat sold commercially--including direct by a farm or through a farm-based CSA--also must be "processed" by a processor. But even if that weren't so I imagine they'd wrap it.
If you raise your own meat I guess that's an exception. I live in a city, so zoning laws (among other things, like our condo regulations and space issues and perhaps past calumnies against cows) preclude that.
I have read many of your posts in the past. I know that you are intelligent to understand what that poster meant. Hopefully you just weren't trying to humiliate her.
In my lifetime I have tried to lose weight and most of that time I did it in an unhealthy manner. As a result I have given up and gained the weight back.
For the past couple of years however I have changed that mentality. I have researched and through trial and error I have finally found a way to lose weight and improve health.
I think everyone needs that chance to figure out how to make this work long term without people making them feel like fools. If the poster is serious about "changing" they will eventually figure it out.
It is one thing to give advice and try to help...it is quite another trying to give that help through humiliation.
If I have misunderstood your point then I am sorry but when I read it my thoughts were that it was humiliating question.
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Monklady123 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Monklady123 wrote: »Monklady123 wrote: »For me, saying I'll eat "clean" or I'll "cut out processed foods" means getting rid of the things in my diet that have chemicals listed in the ingredients. I don't care what studies someone might throw at me to show that such-and-such additive in that boxed meal isn't bad for us... I want to cut them out. It makes me feel good to know that I'm cooking food for my family that doesn't have all those additives. Many boxed foods or mixes are also full of sodium and I'd rather cook from scratch, add a bit of salt, then have the eaters add their own salt or seasonings. This is how my family can even eat chili for example, with one who likes his chili SPICY(!) omg... and another who likes is "pretty spicy", and one who wants no spice, and one who would like a teeny bit. ugh. lol So I make my own, with all ingredients that I can pronounce.
For the person up-thread who was arguing that beef is "processed" -- why do some of you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? Seems silly when you know very well what we're talking about when we say "processed food". Of course a steak in the store has been "processed" in some way -- the cow has been killed, then butchered, then packaged, and brought to the store. That's "processing". But obviously that's not the same thing as a frozen dinner or canned soup that has unpronounceable ingredients. lol
This fascinates me. I have a few frozen meals in the freezer for a quick lunch at work if I don't have any leftovers to bring. I don't find them filling so I usually supplement with a salad, or extra veggies or protein from my work cafeteria, but they work in a pinch.
Here's a Healthy choice dinner and its ingredients. What exactly is so evil on this list, that wouldn't be also in the common ingredients one would use at home if you made baked ziti from scratch? Because I made rigatoni and meat sauce at home last night and I used pretty much the exact same ingredients: canned tomato sauces, rigatoni noodles, Italian sausage and ground beef, dried and fresh spices, fresh grated Parmesan cheese.
Yes, that's one reason it's called "healthy choice". lol. You'll notice that I began my comment with the words "for me". So I'm happy that you are choosing pre-made meals that have good things in them. I wasn't. So FOR ME clean eating means cutting out processed food which lots of chemical-sounding ingredients. So instead of buying a box of Hamburger Helper which includes things like MSG, "disodium guanylate" (no I didn't have that memorized, I looked it up), a large amount of salt, and several dyes, I can make it at home with meat, fresh or canned tomatoes depending on the season, tomato paste (ingredients: tomatoes), spices and the pasta of my choice.
And for whoever said they hate the "ingredients I can pronounce" argument, I'm wondering why? FOR ME I like to understand what I'm eating. Why does that bother you? You are free to buy boxed meals, and packaged cookies if you wish. Why are you so defensive about what *I* choose to do?
You could start learning what things mean that you don't know yet instead of rejecting them outright.
Do you know what riboflavin is? Or Ascorbic acid?
Lol, yes of course I do. But I didn't mention either of those, did I? I said "MSG" and "disodium guanylate" and lots of sodium, and several dyes.
Disodium guanylate is extracted from dried fish and dried seaweed. So, you know, "natural". Just like these natural blueberries, which as @lemonsnowdrop was pointing out, contain a lot of molecules that perhaps the average person would not be able to pronounce or discern whether they are good or bad from just a list.
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Why is everyone obsessed with what Mr. Clean eats? His diet isn't making him stay the same age, it's the chemicals in the cleaners. So much ignorance.0
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booksandchocolate12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »In which post were you told to stuff your face with chips and ice cream.
She wasn't. And, according to her, she didn't interpret people's comments that way.
Even though people said "you can eat chips and ice cream" and she said "stuff my face with chips and ice cream".
I think your last sentence is such a key point. I think what people should be focusing on is the habits of how an individual person consumes "processed" or "unclean" foods, rather than the individual components of those foods. You know, that pesky context and dosage...
For me, I work them into my overall diet, I don't binge eat them, I don't even really eat them to excess. I have never had issues with stopping eating a certain food, my issue was eating a little too much of all the foods I liked, and not moving as much. But if a person does tend to over eat a certain food, then restrictions may be helpful, until that person learns to moderate the food. That doesn't, however, make the food "bad" or even unadvisable for all people. It's just something the individual needs to learn to moderate.
I just don't understand why that is so hard for people to understand and why "it's ok to eat chips and ice cream" turns into "you eat nothing but chips and ice cream".
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When I first started on MFP and saw all this "Clean eating" talk, I quickly figured out they weren't talking kosher v not, so I googled, but came up with no real definition. Then, I started a thread to ask what, specifically, it meant.
Holy God, did I ask the wrong question. I didn't realize what would ensue, lol.
"Clean" means a variety of things to different people. So does "in moderation." Both terms are used a LOT, but neither one actually means anything. If you want to know what someone means, you have to ask...but best to not. The fur will fly. Best to just think of "clean" as "my definition of healthy" and "in moderation" as "my definition of a healthy amount."
I'm so sorry you're getting baited and attacked.
That shouldn't happen. It's technically against the MFP rules.
Stick with what the dietitian gave you. The world will not end and you aren't doomed to being fat if you eliminate chips. People have successfully lost weight without them.
Lol. Yeah. Wishing I never asked anything. Everyone can do what they want. Eating is always going have different opinions from person to person. But what makes a person believe that their way is set in stone. Yeah maybe it works but another person may do it differently and still lose weight. Their another re tons of ways to lose weight as long another res your calorie consumption is within your goal range. I only asked for opinions based off what society thinks another rest clean eating and that if I st weight by cutting out certain carbs and sugars would I gain back if I later added them back in...then the attacking began. I have already had numerous different people private messaging me telling me beware lol. Man I never expected this. But to each their own. They act like I'm a amateur When I have lost the weight before in different ways. I know how to lose it. I was just asking about a certain diet0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I try not to eat anything that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper
Who sells you eggs without a carton or unwrapped meat? In my state (and I think most states), any meat sold commercially--including direct by a farm or through a farm-based CSA--also must be "processed" by a processor. But even if that weren't so I imagine they'd wrap it.
If you raise your own meat I guess that's an exception. I live in a city, so zoning laws (among other things, like our condo regulations and space issues and perhaps past calumnies against cows) preclude that.
I have read many of your posts in the past. I know that you are intelligent to understand what that poster meant. Hopefully you just weren't trying to humiliate her.
In my lifetime I have tried to lose weight and most of that time I did it in an unhealthy manner. As a result I have given up and gained the weight back.
For the past couple of years however I have changed that mentality. I have researched and through trial and error I have finally found a way to lose weight and improve health.
I think everyone needs that chance to figure out how to make this work long term without people making them feel like fools. If the poster is serious about "changing" they will eventually figure it out.
It is one thing to give advice and try to help...it is quite another trying to give that help through humiliation.
If I have misunderstood your point then I am sorry but when I read it my thoughts were that it was humiliating question.
@lemurcat12 is perfectly capable of responding to this post, and will do so far more eloquently than I am about to, but if you read back through the entire thread, she wasn't posting that in response to the OP, it was to this comment:When I hear clean eating, I think of eating things that are considered whole and organic, raw veggies, meat without all the hormones (grass-fed beef for example), etc. I try not to eat anything that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper, or has any ingredient that sounds scientific.
That said, the above is where this has taken me. When I started, it was eat WTF ever I want, just it macros and stay at calorie deficit goal. This works. But it made me think more about what kinds of foods I was putting into my body, not just how much of it.
And I'm sure specifically this sentence I try not to eat anything that is processed and comes in a package or wrapper, or has any ingredient that sounds scientific.
The point I think lemurcat was trying to make was that these sort of arbitrary rules really are silly, because everything comes in a package or is processed in some way. It's easy for everyone to say, "oh you know what I meant" but if you look through the vast number of threads on this topic, you will find that no, there is not one clear definition of what "clean" or "processed" is. Here are some examples I personally have seen, many of them in this thread:
Nothing in a package
Nothing besides in its natural state (seriously, that's a joke, right?).
Nothing with more than 5 ingredients.
Nothing that has chemicals.
Nothing I can't pronounce.
And bringing this back to the OP - yes, I think this thread got a little hostile early. It is one thing to ask the repeat posters who advocate for clean eating for their scientific sources, it's another to ask someone who has good intentions who is trying to follow the advice she got from her friends, or Pinterest, or Dr. Oz, or whomever - and she doesn't have a clear understanding of what that means. However, pointing out that the term "clean eating" is so vague and nebulous, and that you don't HAVE to eat clean in order to lose weight, is not trying to humiliate her or attack her.
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My neighbour lost weight eating in a calorific deficit. She swears by that madness!
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BabyPhat90713 wrote: »When I first started on MFP and saw all this "Clean eating" talk, I quickly figured out they weren't talking kosher v not, so I googled, but came up with no real definition. Then, I started a thread to ask what, specifically, it meant.
Holy God, did I ask the wrong question. I didn't realize what would ensue, lol.
"Clean" means a variety of things to different people. So does "in moderation." Both terms are used a LOT, but neither one actually means anything. If you want to know what someone means, you have to ask...but best to not. The fur will fly. Best to just think of "clean" as "my definition of healthy" and "in moderation" as "my definition of a healthy amount."
I'm so sorry you're getting baited and attacked.
That shouldn't happen. It's technically against the MFP rules.
Stick with what the dietitian gave you. The world will not end and you aren't doomed to being fat if you eliminate chips. People have successfully lost weight without them.
Lol. Yeah. Wishing I never asked anything. Everyone can do what they want. Eating is always going have different opinions from person to person. But what makes a person believe that their way is set in stone. Yeah maybe it works but another person may do it differently and still lose weight. Their another re tons of ways to lose weight as long another res your calorie consumption is within your goal range. I only asked for opinions based off what society thinks another rest clean eating and that if I st weight by cutting out certain carbs and sugars would I gain back if I later added them back in...then the attacking began. I have already had numerous different people private messaging me telling me beware lol. Man I never expected this. But to each their own. They act like I'm a amateur When I have lost the weight before in different ways. I know how to lose it. I was just asking about a certain diet
Again, no one was attacking you. I went back and reread your original post to make sure I remembered it correctly from last night. You seemed uncertain if this way of eating was right for you. You said:BabyPhat90713 wrote: »Ok so I'd really like to give this a go since my neighbor has been doing it. She has lost 15 pounds and 20 inches in 5 weeks. If I do this and get to goal could I slowly add in a few things I used to like as long as I stay at my maintaining calorie range? I'm just wondering if I'll ever be able to eat out again or enjoy things at holidays with the family. I just wouldn't want to lose it all just to gain it all back if I'd slip into old habits if I felt I was always depriving myself. I need to lose at least 80 pounds but my goal is 100. Suggestions, opinions, and advise wanted! Thank you.
Asking about things like, will I ever be able to eat out, or enjoy the holidays with my family again, and do I have to keep this up when I get to maintenance, implies that you are not sure if this is the right path for you. All people were trying to point out to you (and yes, I agree, the delivery was a little over the top on some of the responses) is that you don't have to eat that way in order to lose weight. No one said you SHOULDN'T do it, what they said is you don't HAVE to do it. They were saying the exact same thing that you are complaining about, that there isn't "one way" to do it. Well, there is one way to lose weight, that's to create a calorie deficit, but the way in which you create that deficit is completely up to the individual...
Most of the people who you think are being critical of you actually probably eat cleaner than the average "clean" eater who identifies themselves that way. They leave room for treats, but they eat a primarily nutrient dense diet and still eat the occasional ice cream, donut, chips, whatever. That's different than "stuffing your face with ice cream and potato chips" as you inferred from their comments.
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I started a clean eating program back in March where I pretty much ate chicken, egg whites, oatmeal, green beans, broccoli, fish and sweet potatoes every day. After about 6 weeks or so it started getting boring. I would have people offering all kinds of stuff at work that I thought I shouldn't eat. And I'd feel guilty for declining. And that's what I'd say is the hardest thing about cutting out a lot of food that isn't considered "clean". Then I read and learned more about flexible dieting...and that's worked so much better for me. Now I'm more focused on hitting my macros and eating mostly healthy, sensible foods, but still being able to fit in the occasional donut or sugary bowl of cereal or ice cream. It's the best thing that I've found because it doesn't preclude me from participating in social eating without feeling guilty. Everyone's body responds differently, I think. I've read so many posts from people here and elsewhere who have PCOS, or thyroid issues, or have debilitating neuromuscular disease, or age-related stuff, and it's hard to generalize a certain eating plan to be able to fit everyone. So I just started playing around with the things that work for me, which is eating more often, trying to keep sodium in check, eating a lot of protein, keeping sugar and fats in check, eating enough of fruits and veggies. I had to be more mindful because my body didn't respond to the plain old "eat whatever as long as you eat less calories than you burn". And as far as exercise, cardio used to help me drop weight FAST. Not anymore. Now lifting is shaping my body to be what I am hoping to be. I'm fine with that because I love it more. I hardly ever do cardio anymore.
I say try it out, and see if you like it. It does require more work and planning. But it does make you feel good to eat that way. At least, that's what I felt. It was just more time-consuming.0 -
BabyPhat90713 wrote: »When I first started on MFP and saw all this "Clean eating" talk, I quickly figured out they weren't talking kosher v not, so I googled, but came up with no real definition. Then, I started a thread to ask what, specifically, it meant.
Holy God, did I ask the wrong question. I didn't realize what would ensue, lol.
"Clean" means a variety of things to different people. So does "in moderation." Both terms are used a LOT, but neither one actually means anything. If you want to know what someone means, you have to ask...but best to not. The fur will fly. Best to just think of "clean" as "my definition of healthy" and "in moderation" as "my definition of a healthy amount."
I'm so sorry you're getting baited and attacked.
That shouldn't happen. It's technically against the MFP rules.
Stick with what the dietitian gave you. The world will not end and you aren't doomed to being fat if you eliminate chips. People have successfully lost weight without them.
Lol. Yeah. Wishing I never asked anything. Everyone can do what they want. Eating is always going have different opinions from person to person. But what makes a person believe that their way is set in stone. Yeah maybe it works but another person may do it differently and still lose weight. Their another re tons of ways to lose weight as long another res your calorie consumption is within your goal range. I only asked for opinions based off what society thinks another rest clean eating and that if I st weight by cutting out certain carbs and sugars would I gain back if I later added them back in...then the attacking began. I have already had numerous different people private messaging me telling me beware lol. Man I never expected this. But to each their own. They act like I'm a amateur When I have lost the weight before in different ways. I know how to lose it. I was just asking about a certain diet
Sorry! That's the patten here, unfortunately. Seems quite simple to comprehend to me that you are seeking to eat a more natural diet, and that is a reasonable worthy goal! All best to you.0 -
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slideaway1 wrote: »My neighbour lost weight eating in a calorific deficit. She swears by that madness!
I was going to try this, but I have this weird speech thing where I can't pronounce neighbor, so I'm pretty sure trying would kill me from chemikilz.-1 -
slideaway1 wrote: »My neighbour lost weight eating in a calorific deficit. She swears by that madness!
I was going to try this, but I have this weird speech thing where I can't pronounce neighbor, so I'm pretty sure trying would kill me from chemikilz.
Was that a remark at how I spelt neighbour? That is how it is spelt in the UK. Unless you really do have a pronunciation problem, which is unfortunate.0 -
slideaway1 wrote: »My neighbour lost weight eating in a calorific deficit. She swears by that madness!
I was going to try this, but I have this weird speech thing where I can't pronounce neighbor, so I'm pretty sure trying would kill me from chemikilz.
yea I have a bone disease which impedes my ability to pronounce the 't' in "planetarium"0 -
slideaway1 wrote: »My neighbour lost weight eating in a calorific deficit. She swears by that madness!
I was going to try this, but I have this weird speech thing where I can't pronounce neighbor, so I'm pretty sure trying would kill me from chemikilz.
yea I have a bone disease which impedes my ability to pronounce the 't' in "planetarium"
I tried...I'm finding the t rather necessary without sounding like I'm stuttering.0 -
I am not sure why we have to have names for the food that we eat...seems a bit silly to me. I have often wondered why we can't just eat what we want to eat and call it a day. However...
What someone wants to call their way of eating IMO is up to them...whether I understand it or not. I just think that...well nevermind what I think.
There are just certain topics that when a thread is started that some here disagree with that the crowd comes out and within a few posts the original poster goes in to hiding and then the same debate just starts over.
I know that many low-carbers...clean eaters...and all the other types of food eaters seem to have gone to private groups. I was reading one group(not a specific way of eating group) yesterday that I considered joining. They had a whole thread dedicated to why they didn't post any longer in the general forums. I decided not to join because I don't like the idea of having to hide in order to discuss.
I don't know...seems lately that every time I get interested in reading a thread it gets deleted by the moderators. I like reading about other eating styles even if it isn't something that I would consider.0
This discussion has been closed.
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