Question about ketosis... does it really help you burn fat faster than CICO?
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I've been thinking about why people continue to respond to trolls on here?
And I think it might be because the whole weight loss 'industry' is so very full of woo that we continue to worry that people will actually believe the most fallacious of statements ..like that one up there
And the sad thing is it's true ...people will believe anything for the holy grail of a slimmer more attractive and fitter body
Personally I'm thankful that when I started using the forums there were a bunch of people who continually reinforced the "it doesn't matter what you do just eat fewer calories than you burn" and backed it up with science (most of which I couldn't follow as science is not my background, but I have a basic intelligence so I did my best).
I miss that vibe ... It was what helped
And trolls will keep on trolling, maybe they should bring back the block poster feature
Well, for my part, I am afraid the person is serious, not trolling. It's not always obvious, at least to me. And, I don't want others who don't know better to get off track with some woo.
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I've been thinking about why people continue to respond to trolls on here?
And I think it might be because the whole weight loss 'industry' is so very full of woo that we continue to worry that people will actually believe the most fallacious of statements ..like that one up there
And the sad thing is it's true ...people will believe anything for the holy grail of a slimmer more attractive and fitter body
Personally I'm thankful that when I started using the forums there were a bunch of people who continually reinforced the "it doesn't matter what you do just eat fewer calories than you burn" and backed it up with science (most of which I couldn't follow as science is not my background, but I have a basic intelligence so I did my best).
I miss that vibe ... It was what helped
And trolls will keep on trolling, maybe they should bring back the block poster feature
What the "troll" was referring to was Taubes's (imo, ridiculous) theory of obesity, though. I tried to refute it by calling it out. He's not the first person to espouse it. NuSI will be setting up a study on it.
The theory goes ... eat more fat, giving you more energy, thereby causing you to become more active, thus burning more calories and reducing weight.
Now for some absurd reason, proponents claim this invalidates CICO, but since it seems like a hack of CO, I don't see how.
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I have a friend who insists that she will burn more fat if she goes into ketosis vs. just eating at a deficit.
Is this true? It's not something I want to do, I like my carbs too much, but I'm not sure I believe her and I don't want to encourage her to do something that won't work.
The conditions that favour ketosis favour fat oxidation for sure. 75% of my resting energy is from burning fat. Ketogenic dieters in the main voluntarily restrict their food intake significantly.
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Sometimes I am surprised that low-carb/keto diets have had the legs they've had. I always expect these things to fall out of favor quickly when the next thing comes along. I was doing Atkins back in 2004, and it wasn't brand new when even then.
My own experience was pretty mediocre. I lost weight at first, but maintaining that over the long-term was difficult and, because that state of ketosis was so important to the whole thing, falling off the diet for even a day or two made getting back on it a hassle (in the Atkins plan, any break in the diet basically meant going back on the hardcore 2-week starter diet to get ketosis going again). The weight came back w/in a year of hitting my lowest weight on the diet.0 -
Sometimes I am surprised that low-carb/keto diets have had the legs they've had. I always expect these things to fall out of favor quickly when the next thing comes along. I was doing Atkins back in 2004, and it wasn't brand new when even then.
I don't know much about keto, but low/lower carb diets have legs because they demonstrably help a lot of people control appetite, even long-term. Not everyone, but a lot of people.0 -
I have a friend who insists that she will burn more fat if she goes into ketosis vs. just eating at a deficit.
Is this true? It's not something I want to do, I like my carbs too much, but I'm not sure I believe her and I don't want to encourage her to do something that won't work.
You can eat lower carb below your calorie requirements.
It is popular on here for low carb diets to be treated as if the people on them have no regard to calorie intake.
Yes you can eat deficit calories.
Yes you can lose fat quickly.
How long you want to do that or of it is your diet choice are individual questions.
I like moderate carbs from vegetable sources and eat about 60-80 a day.
I have lost about 125 pounds and added 15 of muscle in a year and a half.
I eat at a calorie deficit.
Although it gets lots of contention on MFP, low carb can work fine. Some make low fat work fine. Some just eat less but eat anything they want.
For me it still means exercise and not eating too much.
You can eat too much on any nutrition plan and gain weight! No escaping the fact you gotta burn off some calories and body fat.
You can't out exercise your fork no matter what diet you are on.
Good luck with it and check out a variety of web sites and forums. NerdFitness is a resource.
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
This is the wrongest thing I've seen all day. And I've been in the Master Cleanser thread.
Did you get any good recommendations in the MC thread? I've got some really bad stains on my bathtub....
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Sometimes I am surprised that low-carb/keto diets have had the legs they've had. I always expect these things to fall out of favor quickly when the next thing comes along. I was doing Atkins back in 2004, and it wasn't brand new when even then.
I don't know much about keto, but low/lower carb diets have legs because they demonstrably help a lot of people control appetite, even long-term. Not everyone, but a lot of people.
Exactly.
It's been great for me, and I know without a doubt that I'll be able to sustain it for life. So naturally I think it's the greatest ever. But keto/low-carb is just a tool/technique to lose weight and achieve calorie deficit. A lot of people find it's their answer when they can't stick to anything else. Other people are happier doing other plans.
It's all about long term sustainability. Keto/Atkins/low-carb is sustainable for many people. For others, though, not so much.
After you lose the weight, you either need to make it your lifestyle for good, or switch it up to another plan. Either way, you have to keep the calories down to a point that you aren't consuming more than your body burns. If you don't, you gain it all back, no matter which technique you used to lose the weight in the first place.
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Personally I'm thankful that when I started using the forums there were a bunch of people who continually reinforced the "it doesn't matter what you do just eat fewer calories than you burn" and backed it up with science (most of which I couldn't follow as science is not my background, but I have a basic intelligence so I did my best).
+1
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TheVirgoddess wrote: »BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
You could not be more wrong. You could try... but you would not be successful.
Russ!0 -
Well said!baconslave wrote: »Sometimes I am surprised that low-carb/keto diets have had the legs they've had. I always expect these things to fall out of favor quickly when the next thing comes along. I was doing Atkins back in 2004, and it wasn't brand new when even then.
I don't know much about keto, but low/lower carb diets have legs because they demonstrably help a lot of people control appetite, even long-term. Not everyone, but a lot of people.
Exactly.
It's been great for me, and I know without a doubt that I'll be able to sustain it for life. So naturally I think it's the greatest ever. But keto/low-carb is just a tool/technique to lose weight and achieve calorie deficit. A lot of people find it's their answer when they can't stick to anything else. Other people are happier doing other plans.
It's all about long term sustainability. Keto/Atkins/low-carb is sustainable for many people. For others, though, not so much.
After you lose the weight, you either need to make it your lifestyle for good, or switch it up to another plan. Either way, you have to keep the calories down to a point that you aren't consuming more than your body burns. If you don't, you gain it all back, no matter which technique you used to lose the weight in the first place.
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baconslave wrote: »
After you lose the weight, you either need to make it your lifestyle for good, or switch it up to another plan. Either way, you have to keep the calories down to a point that you aren't consuming more than your body burns. If you don't, you gain it all back, no matter which technique you used to lose the weight in the first place.
PREACH!
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Besides, to me or anyone like me who cares about the long game of KEEPING it off, it's not about how fast it's lost. I don't think of dieting as something I "do" to be done with. Weight management will be a rest of my life thing. Maintenance will just be a continuation of what I'm doing now with slightly altered goals. "Faster" isn't a factor in my thinking. To that end, the type of food I eat? Well, I like it to based on my preferences and include all the foods I enjoy.
This is the truest thing I've read in this thread. Um... *insert applauding smilie*
Ive done the ketosis thing and you will not convince your friend that she hasn't found the magic solution.
Giving up carbs and replacing them with fats and protein is incredibly easy (at first). Fats and protein always make me feel satisfied, therefore I stop eating so much. End result is I eat fewer calories, so I lose weight. In my head though, as I munch on a casual slice of bacon, I'm patting myself on the back for finally finding the way to easily drop the weight without much effort on my part - plus, bacon! Fast forward a year and I've completely snapped and I'm eating things just because there are carbs in them.
In my experience, anything I deny myself - and I mean anything - is the very thing I will eventually hand my health over to on a mad binge. Instead, I try to keep all things available. The challenge then, is not to keep my will strong enough to deny the food item - but to find a way to enjoy the food item reasonably. Every single time I make such a personal gain, I win.
OP, I'm really glad you seem to have a healthy grasp on how to lose weight. My advice is to support your friend, and just lead by example. When the wedding is over, it won't take long before she realizes that her plan wasn't long term. Maybe you can serve as an inspiration to her.
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^^^ Nice post! :drinker:0
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+10
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This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.
People keep saying this is wrong. I'm not going to argue about all of it but YOU CAN eat more volume of food if you make a good portion of your meal vegetables. I think the point was by eating less calorie dense foods, you can eat more and move more and loose weight. This is the method I use. I am eating more volume of food per calorie and I am exercising and I am loosing weight.
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In my experience, anything I deny myself - and I mean anything - is the very thing I will eventually hand my health over to on a mad binge.
Bingo! The trick is get out of that whole denial/sacrifice mindset. There are MANY things I don't consume, but I don't consider it a sacrifice. I don't take drugs. I don't eat monkey brains. I don't eat grains or sugary crap.
And I feel GOOD.
For some people (and I'm one of them), the carb reduction simply becomes a better normal.
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You Will lose weight quicker in ketosis !Your friend is correct ! I lost 36 lbs in 60 days eating about 1500 calories a day.If I was only doing calorie restriction it would have been maybe 15 lbs loss.0
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You Will lose weight quicker in ketosis !Your friend is correct ! I lost 36 lbs in 60 days eating about 1500 calories a day.If I was only doing calorie restriction it would have been maybe 15 lbs loss.
No, that's not correct, unless you're talking about water weight, which isn't real weight loss.0 -
Key word is quicker mr_knight ! I only did the diet as a scientific experiment and you are correct because of the water weight loss due to not eating food that retains water.Overall the most recent study says that bottom line it is the calorie restriction.
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Key word is quicker mr_knight ! I only did the diet as a scientific experiment and you are correct because of the water weight loss due to not eating food that retains water.Overall the most recent study says that bottom line it is the calorie restriction.
No, not quicker.
That would violate CICO.
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Key word is quicker mr_knight ! I only did the diet as a scientific experiment and you are correct because of the water weight loss due to not eating food that retains water.Overall the most recent study says that bottom line it is the calorie restriction.
Your scientific experiment has an n=1 and is lacking a control group. Water retention can be manipulated by several factors, but the rate of body fat loss is always determined by magnitude of caloric deficit.0 -
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There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
So, yeah, lots of voodoo associated with ketosis.
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Yeah, it works for me, so thanks -- I will. 0
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
This is the wrongest thing I've seen all day. And I've been in the Master Cleanser thread.
Did you get any good recommendations in the MC thread? I've got some really bad stains on my bathtub....
I might be able to help there. I know a cleanse with some off-label uses. PM me if interested.0 -
Ditto.
Damn. You quoted me before I edited it to be more civil. Anyway, I've already lost all the weight I wanted to, so now I just do it for the health benefits.
If anybody's interested, again check out the Art and Science of Low Carb by Phinney and Volek. Written by an MD and a research scientist specifically to educate the medical community, but readable by laypeople.
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There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
So, yeah, lots of voodoo associated with ketosis.
Where does this information come from?0
This discussion has been closed.
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