Question about ketosis... does it really help you burn fat faster than CICO?
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If you are going to discuss the pathological limits of CICO theory...
I was merely trying to educate those who believe CICO explains everything. CICO is a simplified approximation. Not a very good approximation in some cases, but good enough for many.I am genuinely glad that keto works for you, but I think you are overreaching to look for benefits of it. It is enough just to say that you like it, and it helps you to reach your goals.
Thanks, but I wasn't trying to justify the benefits. I was highlighting some differences in metabolism specific to ketosis.
The primary benefit for most people is the reduction in hunger, which tends to lead to an ad lib reduction in the CI component of the CICO equation.
If you're really curious about some of the points you raised, they are all addressed by Phinney and Volek. They don't pay me to pimp their book, but it really is a great book for those who are truly curious about how this stuff works. And I'll be the first to admit that not of all it is rock-solid science yet -- the mechanisms are complex enough that some of it inevitably is still speculative, and some of their work may ultimately be shown to be incorrect.
Personally, I find both the science and the speculation about ketosis more interesting than simple CICO.
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Well....
I'm gonna have some bacon and eggs for breakfast with coffee
Since I am in my normal state of carb lowered diet glycogen levels,I will stay that way.
If I were to eat a pancake and surup breakfast all sorts of things would change.
Proof that a calorie is not jus a calorie.
Interesting how this thread made it abundantly clear that food content does indeed vary processes inside.
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If you are going to discuss the pathological limits of CICO theory...
I was merely trying to educate those who believe CICO explains everything. CICO is a simplified approximation. Not a very good approximation in some cases, but good enough for many.I am genuinely glad that keto works for you, but I think you are overreaching to look for benefits of it. It is enough just to say that you like it, and it helps you to reach your goals.
Thanks, but I wasn't trying to justify the benefits. I was highlighting some differences in metabolism specific to ketosis.
The primary benefit for most people is the reduction in hunger, which tends to lead to an ad lib reduction in the CI component of the CICO equation.
If you're really curious about some of the points you raised, they are all addressed by Phinney and Volek. They don't pay me to pimp their book, but it really is a great book for those who are truly curious about how this stuff works. And I'll be the first to admit that not of all it is rock-solid science yet -- the mechanisms are complex enough that some of it inevitably is still speculative, and some of their work may ultimately be shown to be incorrect.
Personally, I find both the science and the speculation about ketosis more interesting than simple CICO.
You're mistaking CICO for counting calories here. A lot of people do that.
CICO is the underlying mechanism of all fat loss, no exception, and is based on physics. The law of conservation of energy and that every action performed by anything needs an energy input. I don't think you're going to try and dispute those two things.
Every action your body does needs energy to be done, if the food you eat doesn't have enough energy to fuel all of that the rest has to come from somewhere else and since we can't do photosynthesis yet that has to be your body's energy stores, i.e. glycogen, fat, muscle, did I forget anything?
The only way you'd lose more fat on one diet than another at the same calories eaten is by your body not being able to absorb as much energy from the food you eat or your body expending more energy throughout the day for some reason.
That's what your rabbit starvation link was about too. The body can't metabolise much more than 300g of protein per day, that's 1200 calories. You could have eaten 5000 of protein but the CI portion for the day would still only have been 1200.
You wouldn't say CICO doesn't work because you've been throwing up your 10000 calorie meals 5 minutes after eating them and losing weight because of that either.0 -
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These are *bad* outcomes for a ketogenic athlete.
I'm not an athlete, don't really care. The study was a useful data source on fuel utilisation in carbohydrate restriction. As with other is shows that carb restriction mimics fasting.
When losing weight I needed to increase the rate of oxidation of fat substantially, my fat intake was broadly similar. Hence the benefit of low insulin levels, lower RER etc to allow that to happen.0 -
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
Where did you find this? Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss. In cases where a long-term comparison is made between keto vs. moderate-carb diet and body fat between the groups is a control, results are usually mixed or insignificant.
I wondered how long it would take for the Barry Sears (he of the Zone diet) and employees study (sponsored by Barry Sears) would take to appear. He claims insignificant difference - look at the week 6 ketone levels - no significant difference in ketones. I guess the best way to show that a ketogenic diet is no different is to not have the subjects on such a diet.
Reduced triglycerides and increased HDL cholesterol are the typical lipid improvements of low carb diets compared to high carb weight loss. http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717451&wptouch_preview_theme=enabled for example or more recently http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1900694
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In med school now, was recently taught information from these very articles. Low carb can help improve lipid profiles and increase overall fat loss compared to low fat diets. But personally I lost 70lbs eating tons of granola bars and meat, I never worried about the fat intake. Maybe if I had it would have been faster?0
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Nope. Not true and that's from a low carber.
I do low carb because it is the easiest way for me to get to and maintain a calorie deficit. I also have a lot less hunger and cravings when I do low carb. However low carb is not magic, it's the calorie deficit that gets the job done. 100% of the time.
I second this as a keto dieter myself.
It's always CICO that causes weight loss. However, I find eating a keto diet the easiest, most satisfying way for me to achieve a calorie deficit. It's practically effortless for me this way.
I also had a real problem with over consumption of sugar in the past and it was important for me to gain control of my sugar cravings.
It sounds like your friend is taking the idea of a keto diet burning more fat as burning more body fat, but a keto diet is a high fat diet, so your body burns the consumed fat before it moves on to burning stored fat. Just the same as a typical way of dieting would burn your carbs and glycogen before moving on to consumed and finally stored fats. So a keto diet does burn more fat, it's just not all body fat. Possibly none of it is body fat if there isn't a calorie deficit.0 -
BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
Real food? I'm pretty sure it isn't imaginary food I got fat on.0 -
In my experience, anything I deny myself - and I mean anything - is the very thing I will eventually hand my health over to on a mad binge.
Bingo! The trick is get out of that whole denial/sacrifice mindset. There are MANY things I don't consume, but I don't consider it a sacrifice. I don't take drugs. I don't eat monkey brains. I don't eat grains or sugary crap.
And I feel GOOD.
For some people (and I'm one of them), the carb reduction simply becomes a better normal.
Perfection!
I don't feel deprived. I don't look at my lack of carbs and sugar as any kind of deprivation.
I don't live my life around my food. I simply don't eat certain things. Just as I simply don't do drugs. Or simply don't smoke. I don't mean that carbs are the same as those things. I just mean that the decision I've made to not have them is the same.
This works for me. There's no reason to change it.
If I could eat high carb, low fat with success, I would do that. But that didn't work for me.
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The craziest thing is she hasn't even started yet... about a year ago she successfully lost 40 lbs by watching portions and exercising. She fell off horse so to speak and has regained all the weight - she keeps telling me it took too long to lose 40 pounds. Hence why she's insistent keto/low-carb will work cause it will help her stay motivated longer.
I do believe that whatever diet helps you achieve a calorie deficit consistently is good - go for it, but I also think that you need to pick something you can do long term, whatever it is. I've tried to explain that concept to her too.
Unfortunately it seems she does not have long term in mind at all. Which means whatever method she decides to use for the wedding day body will not continue beyond that. I hope she is ok with gaining it plus more back again.
But I can tell you that there is absolutely no reason keto can't be long term. It's just a way of eating. It's not a fad diet. It's a lifestyle. Or it is to those thinking long term...
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Why did this turn into a pissing content between low carb and Calorie Counting? Low carbers say CICO still governs fat loss, so it's now just a matter of... my diet's faster than yours???? Really????? This is such a burning issue, to lose weight fast, that one side has to win?
I don't get it.
I think individual adherence should be the deciding factor in chosing a way of eating, but I'm weird that way.0 -
Then I'm weird, too.
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Weirdos unite!
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Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
Where did you find this? Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss. In cases where a long-term comparison is made between keto vs. moderate-carb diet and body fat between the groups is a control, results are usually mixed or insignificant.
I wondered how long it would take for the Barry Sears (he of the Zone diet) and employees study (sponsored by Barry Sears) would take to appear. He claims insignificant difference - look at the week 6 ketone levels - no significant difference in ketones. I guess the best way to show that a ketogenic diet is no different is to not have the subjects on such a diet.
Reduced triglycerides and increased HDL cholesterol are the typical lipid improvements of low carb diets compared to high carb weight loss. http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717451&wptouch_preview_theme=enabled for example or more recently http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1900694
Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.0 -
I love how I feel when I'm not consuming wheat. So keto is great for me. I feel satisfied and almost never hungry. What's not to like? That said, I'm not losing an ounce if I'm not in a calorie deficit. It's not magic.0
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Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
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In other words, "yeah CICO doesn't always apply, but I'll find some other reason to bash your diet."
CICO *always* applies.
If you want to eat nothing but 750 g/day of protein, it's not my job to stop you.
:drinker:
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