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Question about ketosis... does it really help you burn fat faster than CICO?
Replies
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What you are describing as "fat adaption" is actually down-regulation of glycogen uptake. Which is the exact opposite of what athletic pursuits need.
During the process of adaptation, you do become less insulin sensitive just to ensure the brain's glucose needs are met. It's easy to become insulin sensitive again, and you won't lose the new mitochondria you made in the meantime.
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What you are describing as "fat adaption" is actually down-regulation of glycogen uptake. Which is the exact opposite of what athletic pursuits need.
During the process of adaptation, you do become less insulin sensitive just to ensure the brain's glucose needs are met. It's easy to become insulin sensitive again, and you won't lose the new mitochondria you made in the meantime.
Woosh.
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It's as easy as CICO.
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Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.
They do show the low carb dieters with better results. Sorry. Happens often - better results or the same. The arguments about the incorrect use of punctuation or whatever don't bother me.
If they achieve that by sipping cream in a hot tub rather than sweating in a gym well frankly who cares.
The Bazzano study was a comparison of what happens when you give subjects one of two diets at random and see what the outcomes are. The low carb group did better. It may be that in a prison, metabolic ward or concentration camp a different study could be done but you can deny the outcomes as much as you like - they were the outcomes.
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This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
So the fat in your blood isn't the fat on your plate :-
also there is quite a good correlation between weekly weight loss and daily carbohydrate intake, R^2 = 0.7 despite this being the same subjects at the same calorie intake.0 -
Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.
They do show the low carb dieters with better results. Sorry. Happens often - better results or the same. The arguments about the incorrect use of punctuation or whatever don't bother me.
If they achieve that by sipping cream in a hot tub rather than sweating in a gym well frankly who cares.
The Bazzano study was a comparison of what happens when you give subjects one of two diets at random and see what the outcomes are. The low carb group did better. It may be that in a prison, metabolic ward or concentration camp a different study could be done but you can deny the outcomes as much as you like - they were the outcomes.
I am not denying that if you tell one group of overweight people to go on a keto diet, and another group of overweight people to go on a low-fat diet, the keto group will probably lose more body fat and improve their blood panels. There are lots of studies that show this. However, I still don't think that you see my point about the importance of controlled intake and output when you compare the results between the two groups, so I am dropping it.
Not sure what you mean about criticizing punctuation? I don't do that.0 -
Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Now here is a really nicely designed study; I really like the methodology on this one.
I am still processing what I read in it, but here are my initial thoughts:
Although the authors call it insignificant, to me Figure 2B clearly shows cholesterol ratio (HDL/LDL) improved slightly during the testing period as I would expect (due to body fat loss), even as carbs increased. There is one unexpected data point at Feeding phase C2, which might just be measurement fluctuation. Figure 2B also shows that triglyceride levels were nice and low the entire time until the last feeding phase where carbs were jacked up from 251 g/d to 344 g/d. That is a lot of carbs and no longer in the range of moderate carb diet. Also, since the study involved people that already had metabolic syndrome, maybe this shows the upper limit on carbs for people with existing conditions. Would be interesting if they repeated this same study with healthy individuals to see if the same thing happened here. This study suggests that low- and moderate-carb diets significantly lower triglyceride levels compared to a high-carb diet, at least in people with metabolic syndrome. From figures 3A and 3B, palmitoleic acids clearly show a strong correlation with amount of carbs in diet, but I do not know much about palmitoleic acid or its significance as a health marker in isolation. I will have to educate myself on this. The authors claim it is associated with a whole host of adverse health problems, including type-2 diabetes, obesity, insulin resistance and many others. This would provide good evidence to your claim that keto diet can improve certain health markers better than a moderate-carb diet or high-carb diet, at least in people with existing metabolic syndrome.
Another nice thing about this study is that it provides yet more evidence that saturated fat intake should not be a concern, which I hope makes it into mainstream medical advice soon. Good find, thanks for sharing.0 -
That's not true. I lost the majority of my weight doing no exercise and was on a keto plan. And I have never in my life eaten "garbage".
To the OP - I suspect I would have lost the same amount of weight on a non-keto plan since all you really need is a calorie deficit, but keto was great for controlling my appetite and made it easier for me to stick to my diet. [/quote]
I agree with the poster above, I did the same thing. I felt amazing and my skin was just beautiful!
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.0 -
Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Bought to you by:
Funding: This work was funded by a grant from Dairy Research Institute, The Beef Checkoff, the Egg Nutrition Center, and the Robert C. And Veronica Atkins Foundation.
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stevencloser wrote: »There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.
+10 -
stevencloser wrote: »I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.
I used the word "effectively" instead of "efficiently" specifically to avoid that incorrect interpretation. "Adapted" athletes have been shown to have a higher peak rate of fat oxidation than non-adapted.Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Bought to you by:
Funding: This work was funded by a grant from Dairy Research Institute, The Beef Checkoff, the Egg Nutrition Center, and the Robert C. And Veronica Atkins Foundation.
I was waiting for that one, but I posted it anyway in case some people might be interested in the actual science rather than weak attempts at discrediting the authors of the study.
That was the only study I've read that took a dose-response approach to studying carb intake, but if you're aware of others, contradictory or not, I'm interested.
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stevencloser wrote: »I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.
I used the word "effectively" instead of "efficiently" specifically to avoid that incorrect interpretation. "Adapted" athletes have been shown to have a higher peak rate of fat oxidation than non-adapted.Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Bought to you by:
Funding: This work was funded by a grant from Dairy Research Institute, The Beef Checkoff, the Egg Nutrition Center, and the Robert C. And Veronica Atkins Foundation.
I was waiting for that one, but I posted it anyway in case some people might be interested in the actual science rather than weak attempts at discrediting the authors of the study.
That was the only study I've read that took a dose-response approach to studying carb intake, but if you're aware of others, contradictory or not, I'm interested.
Most research is funded by someone other than the researcher... if we ignore all the research NOT funded by a source with an interest there'd be a lot fewer studies to discuss. And this goes for the "eat whole grains" (as opposed to none? or as opposed to bleached, enriched grains) studies, the "your body doesn't know the difference between sugar and HFCS" studies, and the lipid hypothesis studies on both side.
We shouldn't automatically assume the researchers cooked the data. But should look at the studies with a critical eye. And we should also critically view research where the researcher casts aside his own professional dogma and goes where the data leads. And we know those studies exist.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.
I used the word "effectively" instead of "efficiently" specifically to avoid that incorrect interpretation. "Adapted" athletes have been shown to have a higher peak rate of fat oxidation than non-adapted.Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Bought to you by:
Funding: This work was funded by a grant from Dairy Research Institute, The Beef Checkoff, the Egg Nutrition Center, and the Robert C. And Veronica Atkins Foundation.
I was waiting for that one, but I posted it anyway in case some people might be interested in the actual science rather than weak attempts at discrediting the authors of the study.
That was the only study I've read that took a dose-response approach to studying carb intake, but if you're aware of others, contradictory or not, I'm interested.
So what? Fat is a slower energy source. Carbs are high performance fuel(anaerobic glycolysis doesn't use fat as a substrate). You can't change physiology to fit your dogma.
http://www.mysportscience.com/#!A-problem-with-the-reporting-of-effects-of-ketogenic-diet/cjds/558011140cf28827c188c6e5
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Yeah, this has already been discussed. The advantage to an endurance athlete is simply one of fuel partitioning, not speed. If you don't want to burn more fat, there's no need for ketosis. 0
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This is the definition of ketosis:
ke·to·sis/kēˈtōsis/
noun Medicine
noun: ketosis
1. a condition characterized by raised levels of ketone bodies in the body, associated with abnormal fat metabolism and diabetes mellitus or starvation.
2. accumulation of excessive amounts of ketone bodies in body tissues and fluids, occurring when fatty acids are incompletely metabolized.
3. the abnormal accumulation of ketones in the body as a result of excessive breakdown of fats caused by a deficiency or inadequate use of carbohydrates. Fatty acids are metabolized instead, and the end products, ketones, begin to accumulate. This condition is seen in starvation, occasionally in pregnancy if the intake of protein and carbohydrates is inadequate, and most frequently in diabetes mellitus. It is characterized by ketonuria, loss of potassium in the urine, and a fruity odor of acetone on the breath.
Ketosis is a metabolic process that occurs when the body does not have enough glucose for energy. Stored fats are broken down, resulting in a build-up of acids called ketones within the body. Some people encourage ketosis by following a diet called the ketogenic or low-carb diet.
So, yes, ketosis breaks down fat.0 -
That's also one of the sources of fear about ketogenic diets. Even doctors usually only study ketosis in the context of ketoacidosis -- a side effect of T1D. If you want to get past that fear and misunderstanding, you don't have to be much of a google ninja....0
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CICO guarantees weight loss, but that doesn't mean it'll be fat loss. I'm not saying that keto is any better for that, but the idea that CICO will result in fat loss regardless of the food source is just wrong.0
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stevencloser wrote: »I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
There is one more thing. If being in ketosis for a while makes your body use it more "effectively", then you'd use less, and thus lose slower, not faster.
I used the word "effectively" instead of "efficiently" specifically to avoid that incorrect interpretation. "Adapted" athletes have been shown to have a higher peak rate of fat oxidation than non-adapted.Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Bought to you by:
Funding: This work was funded by a grant from Dairy Research Institute, The Beef Checkoff, the Egg Nutrition Center, and the Robert C. And Veronica Atkins Foundation.
I was waiting for that one, but I posted it anyway in case some people might be interested in the actual science rather than weak attempts at discrediting the authors of the study.
That was the only study I've read that took a dose-response approach to studying carb intake, but if you're aware of others, contradictory or not, I'm interested.
That STILL means they're using more fuel for the same amount of work.0 -
asflatasapancake wrote: »cordreyrich wrote: »CICO guarantees weight loss, but that doesn't mean it'll be fat loss. I'm not saying that keto is any better for that, but the idea that CICO will result in fat loss regardless of the food source is just wrong.
If you eat less than you burn, you're losing fat. You don't have to eat specific foods to lose fat. I ate what I wanted and lost 75 pounds. What did I lose then? All bone and muscle?
Depending on your intake, and starting point, you will lose significant muscle, yes. Ever hear the term "skinny fat"?
Lower weight does not automatically equate to better health. There are lots of skinny diabetics and future heart attack victims out there.
I've lost significant weight as well, and the content of diet is extremely important to body composition. I can be the weight I want to be by eating junk, sure. But it comes at the cost of carrying a higher bf%. I'd rather be authentically healthy by eating real food.0
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