Question about ketosis... does it really help you burn fat faster than CICO?
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In my experience, anything I deny myself - and I mean anything - is the very thing I will eventually hand my health over to on a mad binge.
Bingo! The trick is get out of that whole denial/sacrifice mindset. There are MANY things I don't consume, but I don't consider it a sacrifice. I don't take drugs. I don't eat monkey brains. I don't eat grains or sugary crap.
And I feel GOOD.
For some people (and I'm one of them), the carb reduction simply becomes a better normal.
Perfection!
I don't feel deprived. I don't look at my lack of carbs and sugar as any kind of deprivation.
I don't live my life around my food. I simply don't eat certain things. Just as I simply don't do drugs. Or simply don't smoke. I don't mean that carbs are the same as those things. I just mean that the decision I've made to not have them is the same.
This works for me. There's no reason to change it.
If I could eat high carb, low fat with success, I would do that. But that didn't work for me.
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The craziest thing is she hasn't even started yet... about a year ago she successfully lost 40 lbs by watching portions and exercising. She fell off horse so to speak and has regained all the weight - she keeps telling me it took too long to lose 40 pounds. Hence why she's insistent keto/low-carb will work cause it will help her stay motivated longer.
I do believe that whatever diet helps you achieve a calorie deficit consistently is good - go for it, but I also think that you need to pick something you can do long term, whatever it is. I've tried to explain that concept to her too.
Unfortunately it seems she does not have long term in mind at all. Which means whatever method she decides to use for the wedding day body will not continue beyond that. I hope she is ok with gaining it plus more back again.
But I can tell you that there is absolutely no reason keto can't be long term. It's just a way of eating. It's not a fad diet. It's a lifestyle. Or it is to those thinking long term...
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Why did this turn into a pissing content between low carb and Calorie Counting? Low carbers say CICO still governs fat loss, so it's now just a matter of... my diet's faster than yours???? Really????? This is such a burning issue, to lose weight fast, that one side has to win?
I don't get it.
I think individual adherence should be the deciding factor in chosing a way of eating, but I'm weird that way.0 -
Then I'm weird, too.
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Weirdos unite!
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Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
Where did you find this? Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss. In cases where a long-term comparison is made between keto vs. moderate-carb diet and body fat between the groups is a control, results are usually mixed or insignificant.
I wondered how long it would take for the Barry Sears (he of the Zone diet) and employees study (sponsored by Barry Sears) would take to appear. He claims insignificant difference - look at the week 6 ketone levels - no significant difference in ketones. I guess the best way to show that a ketogenic diet is no different is to not have the subjects on such a diet.
Reduced triglycerides and increased HDL cholesterol are the typical lipid improvements of low carb diets compared to high carb weight loss. http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717451&wptouch_preview_theme=enabled for example or more recently http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1900694
Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.0 -
I love how I feel when I'm not consuming wheat. So keto is great for me. I feel satisfied and almost never hungry. What's not to like? That said, I'm not losing an ounce if I'm not in a calorie deficit. It's not magic.0
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Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
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In other words, "yeah CICO doesn't always apply, but I'll find some other reason to bash your diet."
CICO *always* applies.
If you want to eat nothing but 750 g/day of protein, it's not my job to stop you.
:drinker:
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs. When I get home, it's straight to kitchen for a big bowl of porridge.
But for long term, healthy calorie-based bodyweight control, ketosis is a nono for me. Maybe even a nonono. But basically a whole bunch of no.0 -
Depending on how much fat you need to lose keto definetely works faster than low fat diets and it's been proven since your body switches fuel sources after a couple days. Try it for a month correctly and you will definetely lose more fat than on a low fat diet. Is it a quick fix yes but it definetely works. Low carb is a race when low fat is a marathon. Bodybuilders have been doing it for years to lose fat for shows, arnold Schwarzenegger used it himself.0
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
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I do some of my runs and bike rides before breakfast. And blow up a lot earlier and a lot harder. And it hurts. The aim being for my body to better utilise fat stores as a source of energy during long rides/runs.
You might want to read up on "keto-adaptation." If you stay in ketosis long enough (3+ weeks), your body starts utilizing both ketones and fats more effectively for fuel. It's kind of cool, and it'll prevent bonking. Some endurance athletes are doing it, but it works for n00b runners like me, too.
This is wrong in so many ways it's hard to know where to begin...
Give it a shot, and maybe I'll give you a lesson on mitochondrial biogenesis.
There isn't a single world class "running" athlete training and successfully competing while in ketosis.
Not one.
There really isn't anything else that needs to be said.
That's almost a valid point. You need to keep VO2 pretty low to run just on fat. More of a recreational marathon pace. However, getting to the point where you are keto-adapted does shift the fuel utilization way towards fat. If you want to sprint (even once in a while), you'll still want some carbs for the race. Some of the athletes use "super starch" to avoid the glucose spikes and crashes.
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Well, more correctly, racing in a constant state of ketosis requires a slow pace if you don't want to exhaust glycogen. Staying in ketosis long enough to become keto-adapted could potentially benefit many athletes, even n00bs like me.
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
This is the wrongest thing I've seen all day. And I've been in the Master Cleanser thread.
@3bambi3
OMG! That was FUNNNNY!!! ( The Master Cleanser Thread?" ) Is there really such a thread?? haha
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What you are describing as "fat adaption" is actually down-regulation of glycogen uptake. Which is the exact opposite of what athletic pursuits need.
Which is why...Staying in ketosis long enough to become keto-adapted could potentially benefit many athletes, even n00bs like me.
...no, it can't.
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BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
You got fat on garbage like : industrial refined canola, corn, soybean, safflower oil and margarine; as well as refined white sugar, flour and rice; as well as processed meats, Doritos, potato chips and soft drinks; as well as cakes, pies, cookies, pudding. These are all industrial waste products after the nutrients have been removed. THEY ARE NOT FOODBILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
Real food? I'm pretty sure it isn't imaginary food I got fat on.
If they have no nutrients, it would be impossible to get fat on them. I also like that you've got a precompiled list of what you assume has been part of my diet.
I've contemplated starting a YouTube channel for people just like this, and as part of an experiment, intentionally gain weight while eating only organic, whole foods. Other than cost, it isn't hard to do.
The flip side would be after showing gaining for month, not only lose weight on "junk" food, but also drink a daily shot of pure glyphosate (the active ingredient in round up) to click bait organic woosters into watching my channel with their dreams of seeing me drop dead.0 -
What you are describing as "fat adaption" is actually down-regulation of glycogen uptake. Which is the exact opposite of what athletic pursuits need.
During the process of adaptation, you do become less insulin sensitive just to ensure the brain's glucose needs are met. It's easy to become insulin sensitive again, and you won't lose the new mitochondria you made in the meantime.
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What you are describing as "fat adaption" is actually down-regulation of glycogen uptake. Which is the exact opposite of what athletic pursuits need.
During the process of adaptation, you do become less insulin sensitive just to ensure the brain's glucose needs are met. It's easy to become insulin sensitive again, and you won't lose the new mitochondria you made in the meantime.
Woosh.
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It's as easy as CICO. 0
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Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.
They do show the low carb dieters with better results. Sorry. Happens often - better results or the same. The arguments about the incorrect use of punctuation or whatever don't bother me.
If they achieve that by sipping cream in a hot tub rather than sweating in a gym well frankly who cares.
The Bazzano study was a comparison of what happens when you give subjects one of two diets at random and see what the outcomes are. The low carb group did better. It may be that in a prison, metabolic ward or concentration camp a different study could be done but you can deny the outcomes as much as you like - they were the outcomes.
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This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
So the fat in your blood isn't the fat on your plate :-
also there is quite a good correlation between weekly weight loss and daily carbohydrate intake, R^2 = 0.7 despite this being the same subjects at the same calorie intake.0 -
Neither of the studies you linked mention anything about intake or exercise being controlled. They both show that people that lose more bodyfat also improve triglycerides and cholesterol measurements. They don't say anything conclusive about low-carb vs. low fat diet other than higher adherence statistics.
They do show the low carb dieters with better results. Sorry. Happens often - better results or the same. The arguments about the incorrect use of punctuation or whatever don't bother me.
If they achieve that by sipping cream in a hot tub rather than sweating in a gym well frankly who cares.
The Bazzano study was a comparison of what happens when you give subjects one of two diets at random and see what the outcomes are. The low carb group did better. It may be that in a prison, metabolic ward or concentration camp a different study could be done but you can deny the outcomes as much as you like - they were the outcomes.
I am not denying that if you tell one group of overweight people to go on a keto diet, and another group of overweight people to go on a low-fat diet, the keto group will probably lose more body fat and improve their blood panels. There are lots of studies that show this. However, I still don't think that you see my point about the importance of controlled intake and output when you compare the results between the two groups, so I am dropping it.
Not sure what you mean about criticizing punctuation? I don't do that.0 -
Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss.
Bumping this thread to post an interesting study done by Volek and crew last year.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605
This looks directly at carb impact on serum TG and SFA in a hypocaloric context by varying carb intake to get a dose-response profile. Lots of good stuff in the study, but the two primary findings were 1) that triglycerides go up with carb intake even during weight loss, and 2) that saturated fat in the blood isn't affected by saturated fat in the diet.
Now here is a really nicely designed study; I really like the methodology on this one.
I am still processing what I read in it, but here are my initial thoughts:
Although the authors call it insignificant, to me Figure 2B clearly shows cholesterol ratio (HDL/LDL) improved slightly during the testing period as I would expect (due to body fat loss), even as carbs increased. There is one unexpected data point at Feeding phase C2, which might just be measurement fluctuation. Figure 2B also shows that triglyceride levels were nice and low the entire time until the last feeding phase where carbs were jacked up from 251 g/d to 344 g/d. That is a lot of carbs and no longer in the range of moderate carb diet. Also, since the study involved people that already had metabolic syndrome, maybe this shows the upper limit on carbs for people with existing conditions. Would be interesting if they repeated this same study with healthy individuals to see if the same thing happened here. This study suggests that low- and moderate-carb diets significantly lower triglyceride levels compared to a high-carb diet, at least in people with metabolic syndrome. From figures 3A and 3B, palmitoleic acids clearly show a strong correlation with amount of carbs in diet, but I do not know much about palmitoleic acid or its significance as a health marker in isolation. I will have to educate myself on this. The authors claim it is associated with a whole host of adverse health problems, including type-2 diabetes, obesity, insulin resistance and many others. This would provide good evidence to your claim that keto diet can improve certain health markers better than a moderate-carb diet or high-carb diet, at least in people with existing metabolic syndrome.
Another nice thing about this study is that it provides yet more evidence that saturated fat intake should not be a concern, which I hope makes it into mainstream medical advice soon. Good find, thanks for sharing.0
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