Question about ketosis... does it really help you burn fat faster than CICO?
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There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
No, no, no, 19 thousand times no.
You are confusing ingested fat with stored fat. Moving to ketones has no meaningful impact on the rate-limited process of oxidizing stored fat. If you are in a caloric deficit, you will oxidize internal fat at the same rate whether you're in keto or not.
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tincanonastring wrote: »There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
So, yeah, lots of voodoo associated with ketosis.
Where does this information come from?
You can find this and a LOT more in Phinney and Volek. Or just search PubMed for the studies.
If you're an athlete, check out the n=1 experiments of Dr Peter Attia:
http://eatingacademy.com/
Lots of good biochemistry for those who love the stuff.
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There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
No, no, no, 19 thousand times no.
You are confusing ingested fat with stored fat. Moving to ketones has no meaningful impact on the rate-limited process of oxidizing stored fat.
The original studies of ketosis were of fasting. I.e., zero fat in the diet. How do you think ketones were made?0 -
There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
No, no, no, 19 thousand times no.
You are confusing ingested fat with stored fat. Moving to ketones has no meaningful impact on the rate-limited process of oxidizing stored fat.
The original studies of ketosis were of fasting. I.e., zero fat in the diet. How do you think ketones were made?
Fasting is a low-carb diet.
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There is no other magic fat burning voodoo at work here.
Well, there is quite a bit, actually.
You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
No, no, no, 19 thousand times no.
You are confusing ingested fat with stored fat. Moving to ketones has no meaningful impact on the rate-limited process of oxidizing stored fat.
The original studies of ketosis were of fasting. I.e., zero fat in the diet. How do you think ketones were made?
Fasting is a low-carb diet.
So the low-carb fairy made them of unicorn dust? Not sure I'm following your logic here.0 -
Losing that kind of weight is really unhealthy within the span she is hoping to lose. However she can easily lose 25-40 pounds by November while eating carbs, fats and protein. Exercising and calorie counting , that is it. Also food with high fiber content keeps stomach healthy, prevents bloating which is absent in high protein low carb diet.Yeah, unfortunately she is impatient and isn't thinking long term. She wants to lose weight for a special occasion, which is now unattainable - she wants to lose over 80 pounds before November. Well, I guess she could, but it'd be incredibly difficult. She tells me she just has to do this until the wedding, then she can enjoy her favorite foods again.
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The human body is always burning stored fat.
Eat at a caloric surplus -> net, add more stored fat than you're burning -> weight gain
Eat at maintenance -> store as much new fat as you're burning -> no weight change
Eat at a caloric deficit -> burn more stored fat than you're adding -> weight loss
Fasting -> accelerated burning of stored fat
Fasting + ketosis -> same as fasting
Fasting + carbs -> same as fasting
Fasting + unicorn farts -> same as fasting
Caloric surplus + ketosis -> net, storing more fat -> weight gain
Caloric deficit + non-ketosis -> weight loss
Ketosis doesn't do anything to speed up weight loss - calorie deficits are what matter. It is beyond trivial to gain weight while on ketosis, and MANY people do just that.
Fasting (under the right conditions), however, does increase the rate at which the body can access stored fat, allowing increased "safe" caloric deficits. This happens regardless of whether the non-fasting intake results in ketosis.
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Fasting (under the right conditions), however, does increase the rate at which the body can access stored fat, allowing increased "safe" caloric deficits. This happens regardless of whether the non-fasting intake results in ketosis.
Ketogenic diets also produce greater availability of free fatty acids and shift oxidation towards fat as shown by lower RER values (and greater fat oxidation rate during exercise).
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Fasting (under the right conditions), however, does increase the rate at which the body can access stored fat, allowing increased "safe" caloric deficits. This happens regardless of whether the non-fasting intake results in ketosis.
Ketogenic diets also produce greater availability of free fatty acids and shift oxidation towards fat as shown by lower RER values (and greater fat oxidation rate during exercise).
Since fat is what is (primarily) ingested, obviously that's what will (primarily) get burnt.
That doesn't equate to increased burning of *stored* fat above and beyond what is needed by the creation of a caloric deficit. The increased RER values will appear in ketogenic diets even when people are eating at a caloric *surplus* and gaining weight.
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The craziest thing is she hasn't even started yet... about a year ago she successfully lost 40 lbs by watching portions and exercising. She fell off horse so to speak and has regained all the weight - she keeps telling me it took too long to lose 40 pounds. Hence why she's insistent keto/low-carb will work cause it will help her stay motivated longer.
I do believe that whatever diet helps you achieve a calorie deficit consistently is good - go for it, but I also think that you need to pick something you can do long term, whatever it is. I've tried to explain that concept to her too.
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Since fat is what is (primarily) ingested, obviously that's what will (primarily) get burnt.
That doesn't equate to increased burning of *stored* fat
Depends how much fat is eaten, does it not ?
It has to be useful to have a higher rate of fat oxidation, surely ? For a given fat intake / production / release from storage it will result in more leaving the body. Faster loss or slower gain.
Mildly ketogenic cyclists for example lost more fat and could be seen to be oxidising more at the same calorie intake etc as when they ate 50% carbs.
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Ketosis doesn't do anything to speed up weight loss - calorie deficits are what matter.
Calorie deficits matter. CI < CO. So we can either reduce CI or increase CO, right? What might increase CO if you're completely sedentary?
That's right! Metabolism! There are many metabolic changes that happen with fasting, and ketogenic diets attempt to mimic fasting. I'm sure we all agree that gluconeogenesis increases CO, right? Just try to get fat by eating an all protein diet. It's impossible!
Ketones are not free. It takes energy to produce them from fat. It doesn't matter if you're oxidizing dietary fat or adipose tissue fat. CO increases.
It increases in other ways, too. For example, some of those ketones are wasted in the urine. You literally piss away energy!
And ketones do regulate how much FFA is liberated, but that's yet another issue.
Bottom line: not only does CI influence CO, but the contents of CI can profoundly influence CO.0 -
Since fat is what is (primarily) ingested, obviously that's what will (primarily) get burnt.
That doesn't equate to increased burning of *stored* fat
Depends how much fat is eaten, does it not ?
It has to be useful to have a higher rate of fat oxidation, surely ? For a given fat intake / production / release from storage it will result in more leaving the body. Faster loss or slower gain.
Mildly ketogenic cyclists for example lost more fat and could be seen to be oxidising more at the same calorie intake etc as when they ate 50% carbs.
Asked and answered - since they're eating primarily fat obviously they're going to be metabolizing more fat since that's what there tummies are putting into their bloodstream.
Another hint, from your link:...greater oxygen uptake necessary to obtain the same energy yield as on a mixed diet...The max work load and the work load at lactate threshold were significantly higher after the mixed diet.
These are *bad* outcomes for a ketogenic athlete.
And here...[Fat loading may also slow down the rate of carbohydrate utilization and enhance endurance performance in long distance events lasting from 2 to 5 h.
"Fat loading" is ingested fats, not stored fats.
And another money quote:During the last 15 min of exercise, when maximal intensity was introduced, FFA metabolism was inhibited by glycolysis, which was evidenced by significant increases in LA concentration. This phenomena was observed in the case of both diets, yet it was more pronounced in the case of the high fat diet [21,22].
This very clearly demonstrates the body is rejecting the use of fat metabolites when put under heavy loads.0 -
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Ketosis doesn't do anything to speed up weight loss - calorie deficits are what matter.
Calorie deficits matter. CI < CO. So we can either reduce CI or increase CO, right? What might increase CO if you're completely sedentary?
That's right! Metabolism! There are many metabolic changes that happen with fasting, and ketogenic diets attempt to mimic fasting. I'm sure we all agree that gluconeogenesis increases CO, right? Just try to get fat by eating an all protein diet. It's impossible!
Ketones are not free. It takes energy to produce them from fat. It doesn't matter if you're oxidizing dietary fat or adipose tissue fat. CO increases.
It increases in other ways, too. For example, some of those ketones are wasted in the urine. You literally piss away energy!
And ketones do regulate how much FFA is liberated, but that's yet another issue.
Bottom line: not only does CI influence CO, but the contents of CI can profoundly influence CO.
So if I eat 3000 calories a day of straight protein, I won't gain weight, gain fat? Shudders.
That is correct! And for two reasons: 1) the conversion of protein to fat is VERY inefficient, and 2) the liver and kidneys can't keep up with normal energy demand. GNG maxes out at somewhere around 1000 kcal/day.
Edit: oh, you wanted a link. Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation0 -
In other words, "yeah CICO doesn't always apply, but I'll find some other reason to bash your diet."
Broscientists, CICO is simply too simple. Open your minds to the complexities of human metabolism. 0 -
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You'll only make ketones if you restrict carbs. Ketones, of course, are made by partially oxidizing fat. The metabolic cost of making ketones is relatively high, so you're burning more energy (i.e., you've magically raised the CO part of CICO).
GNG increases to CO is minimal and temporary until the body becomes ketone adapted. This is also mitigated by the fact that fat has a lower TEF than carb.
This study and this study show there are no significant changes to BMR (REE) due to ketogenic diet alone.
But the best magic is where a lot of the fat comes from. Since most of the work is done in the liver, at lot of the fat comes directly from fat stored in the liver and surrounding viscera. I.e., the fat that has the biggest negative impact on your health is the first to be burned.
Not really magic here, unless you think genetics are magic. Visceral fat and subcutaneous fat are accumulated and depleted according to genetic instruction; hence the difference between the type, location, and quantity of adipose in healthy men and women. Visceral fat tends to be reduced at a higher rate relative to subcutaneous during initial periods of caloric deficit regardless of type of diet. Since it seems you are a fan of Volek, here is his study that seems to show an increased rate of visceral and overall fat loss of ketogenic diet vs. low-fat diet when deficit is controlled. These results are controversial, not only because they contradict a large body of evidence accumulated in other studies, but also because they are not protein controlled and intake is self-reported, as Aragon discusses here. If you are still not skeptical about Volek's results, please note at the bottom of his linked study that it was sponsored by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation, that some rat studies have have shown ketogenic diets actually increase visceral fat, and larger meta-analyses show no significant long-term difference between between keto and balanced diets regarding fat loss or health markers.
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
Where did you find this? Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss. In cases where a long-term comparison is made between keto vs. moderate-carb diet and body fat between the groups is a control, results are usually mixed or insignificant.
Edit: oh, you wanted a link. Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
...
In other words, "yeah CICO doesn't always apply, but I'll find some other reason to bash your diet."
If you are going to discuss the pathological limits of CICO theory, then yes, it should be noted that one cannot live off of protein alone, nor could one live off of fat or carb alone, and CICO theory can break down with severe vitamin or mineral deficiencies. It is also possible to raise CI so high that the body cannot process all of the energy and just passes it through, or overloads (see the movie se7en), at which point you would then have a serious change in CO to say the least.
I am genuinely glad that keto works for you, but I think you are overreaching to look for benefits of it. It is enough just to say that you like it, and it helps you to reach your goals.0 -
If you are going to discuss the pathological limits of CICO theory...
I was merely trying to educate those who believe CICO explains everything. CICO is a simplified approximation. Not a very good approximation in some cases, but good enough for many.I am genuinely glad that keto works for you, but I think you are overreaching to look for benefits of it. It is enough just to say that you like it, and it helps you to reach your goals.
Thanks, but I wasn't trying to justify the benefits. I was highlighting some differences in metabolism specific to ketosis.
The primary benefit for most people is the reduction in hunger, which tends to lead to an ad lib reduction in the CI component of the CICO equation.
If you're really curious about some of the points you raised, they are all addressed by Phinney and Volek. They don't pay me to pimp their book, but it really is a great book for those who are truly curious about how this stuff works. And I'll be the first to admit that not of all it is rock-solid science yet -- the mechanisms are complex enough that some of it inevitably is still speculative, and some of their work may ultimately be shown to be incorrect.
Personally, I find both the science and the speculation about ketosis more interesting than simple CICO.
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Well....
I'm gonna have some bacon and eggs for breakfast with coffee
Since I am in my normal state of carb lowered diet glycogen levels,I will stay that way.
If I were to eat a pancake and surup breakfast all sorts of things would change.
Proof that a calorie is not jus a calorie.
Interesting how this thread made it abundantly clear that food content does indeed vary processes inside.
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If you are going to discuss the pathological limits of CICO theory...
I was merely trying to educate those who believe CICO explains everything. CICO is a simplified approximation. Not a very good approximation in some cases, but good enough for many.I am genuinely glad that keto works for you, but I think you are overreaching to look for benefits of it. It is enough just to say that you like it, and it helps you to reach your goals.
Thanks, but I wasn't trying to justify the benefits. I was highlighting some differences in metabolism specific to ketosis.
The primary benefit for most people is the reduction in hunger, which tends to lead to an ad lib reduction in the CI component of the CICO equation.
If you're really curious about some of the points you raised, they are all addressed by Phinney and Volek. They don't pay me to pimp their book, but it really is a great book for those who are truly curious about how this stuff works. And I'll be the first to admit that not of all it is rock-solid science yet -- the mechanisms are complex enough that some of it inevitably is still speculative, and some of their work may ultimately be shown to be incorrect.
Personally, I find both the science and the speculation about ketosis more interesting than simple CICO.
You're mistaking CICO for counting calories here. A lot of people do that.
CICO is the underlying mechanism of all fat loss, no exception, and is based on physics. The law of conservation of energy and that every action performed by anything needs an energy input. I don't think you're going to try and dispute those two things.
Every action your body does needs energy to be done, if the food you eat doesn't have enough energy to fuel all of that the rest has to come from somewhere else and since we can't do photosynthesis yet that has to be your body's energy stores, i.e. glycogen, fat, muscle, did I forget anything?
The only way you'd lose more fat on one diet than another at the same calories eaten is by your body not being able to absorb as much energy from the food you eat or your body expending more energy throughout the day for some reason.
That's what your rabbit starvation link was about too. The body can't metabolise much more than 300g of protein per day, that's 1200 calories. You could have eaten 5000 of protein but the CI portion for the day would still only have been 1200.
You wouldn't say CICO doesn't work because you've been throwing up your 10000 calorie meals 5 minutes after eating them and losing weight because of that either.0 -
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These are *bad* outcomes for a ketogenic athlete.
I'm not an athlete, don't really care. The study was a useful data source on fuel utilisation in carbohydrate restriction. As with other is shows that carb restriction mimics fasting.
When losing weight I needed to increase the rate of oxidation of fat substantially, my fat intake was broadly similar. Hence the benefit of low insulin levels, lower RER etc to allow that to happen.0 -
Not only that, but the impact of your serum fat profile is improved significantly vs a high-carb diet.
Where did you find this? Serum lipid profile is improved by losing body fat, regardless of how one accomplishes the fat loss. In cases where a long-term comparison is made between keto vs. moderate-carb diet and body fat between the groups is a control, results are usually mixed or insignificant.
I wondered how long it would take for the Barry Sears (he of the Zone diet) and employees study (sponsored by Barry Sears) would take to appear. He claims insignificant difference - look at the week 6 ketone levels - no significant difference in ketones. I guess the best way to show that a ketogenic diet is no different is to not have the subjects on such a diet.
Reduced triglycerides and increased HDL cholesterol are the typical lipid improvements of low carb diets compared to high carb weight loss. http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717451&wptouch_preview_theme=enabled for example or more recently http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1900694
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In med school now, was recently taught information from these very articles. Low carb can help improve lipid profiles and increase overall fat loss compared to low fat diets. But personally I lost 70lbs eating tons of granola bars and meat, I never worried about the fat intake. Maybe if I had it would have been faster?0
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Nope. Not true and that's from a low carber.
I do low carb because it is the easiest way for me to get to and maintain a calorie deficit. I also have a lot less hunger and cravings when I do low carb. However low carb is not magic, it's the calorie deficit that gets the job done. 100% of the time.
I second this as a keto dieter myself.
It's always CICO that causes weight loss. However, I find eating a keto diet the easiest, most satisfying way for me to achieve a calorie deficit. It's practically effortless for me this way.
I also had a real problem with over consumption of sugar in the past and it was important for me to gain control of my sugar cravings.
It sounds like your friend is taking the idea of a keto diet burning more fat as burning more body fat, but a keto diet is a high fat diet, so your body burns the consumed fat before it moves on to burning stored fat. Just the same as a typical way of dieting would burn your carbs and glycogen before moving on to consumed and finally stored fats. So a keto diet does burn more fat, it's just not all body fat. Possibly none of it is body fat if there isn't a calorie deficit.0 -
BILLBRYTAN wrote: »
This is totally false. Fat loss comes from physical movement and eating more real food. Obesity comes from driving cars and sitting in front of a television and then blaming it on food. The secret to fat loss is to move more and eat more food but stop eating garbage.PeachyCarol wrote: »This is a divisive topic, but I'll try to answer it according to my understanding of the science behind it all. Yes, you burn a larger amount of fat while eating on a keto plan. And keto eaters assert that. The problem with that assertion is that a great amount of that fat burning isn't BODY fat, it's the fat you're consuming.
All fat loss comes from creating a calorie deficit.
I hope this helps.
Real food? I'm pretty sure it isn't imaginary food I got fat on.0
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