Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?
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workout_freak89 wrote: »Also, kindly go through a standard biochemistry textbook or google the terms in uppercase for a better understanding.
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If I swim really hard for an excessive amount of time, I'll usually get sore. The two are connected, no doubt about it.
But every once in a while I'll get sore for no real reason, usually deltoid. So, there's that.
I know by how tired I am whether it was a big day or not. If I have to sit and rest before I shower, it was a killer workout.
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workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
thanks for the link..is a good study
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0681-6
this one disagrees
np, i like this one too
I'm wondering how comparable they are, though; looks like were differences in volume - the high-rep group in the study you linked to did two sets of 20-28 RM ( bit lower than 30% RM) with one minute rest, while in the one i found, it was "three sets performed to the point of fatigue with 30% of 1RM (30%-3)."
yes..the one you quoted had 80%RM - 3reps vs 30% RM
no hypertrophy difference. only strength difference
i think these studies mainly compare between 5 rep "powerlifting " vs 15 rep "endurance" stereotype lifting.
i wonder if there's a study that compares the 8-10 rep range vs 12-15 range
or can we conclude that if size gains for 80% RM vs 30% RM for 3 reps is comparable, then it can be extended and generalized for 8 reps vs 15??hard to say me thinks
I don't know! The thing I'm taking from it is that getting near/to failure might be the key thing for size, but it would be neat to see the comparisons you describe.workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »MrPicklesworth wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »DOMS or delayed onset muscle soreness is the pain or soreness experienced typically several hours after workout
is DOMS related to how productive your workout was???
NO it' not
yet why do many people mistake the degree of post workout soreness to the efficacy of their workout??
Most common reason is instant feedback and lack of knowledge... in fact just think about it.. It even seems logical...harder the exercise more is the soreness..On top of this the bro science "i killed my legs yesterday bro! I can't even get up from my bed.... gonna get those killer quads by tomorrow!! " .another addition to the long list of fitness and health myths
unfortunately this is completely wrong and baseless as far as success of the workout depends...workouts can still be effective even if you’re not sore, because exercise is still effective after you stop getting sore from it...just because one is not experiencing the same level of post exercise soreness as when he first started out doesn't mean it's efficacy has reduced. It means that the body has adapted to the level of intensity
what about the muscle micro tear and micro trauma??
Muscle biopsy and electron microscopy shows that the reason for pain is connective tissue damage and inflammation in the area around the muscle tendon attachment where most of the sensory nerve fibers innervate. While it’s true that the method which stimulates the synthesis of new myofibrils ( components of muscle cell) owes its basis to the micro tears introduced in muscle fibers, however this process is NOT always accompanied by pain and soreness
classic case where the effect is mistaken for cause
if muscle soreness is not the indicator of success then what is??
Performance aka progressive overload
if you are lifting more weight than the previous workout then your last session was a hit. Congratulations!
Have a powerful day!!
Your explanation does not answer your question entirely. Basically all you told us was that you don't have to feel sore afterwards to have had a great workout. You didn't disprove your question of, "Does post workout Soreness mean you had a Killer Workout?" So I can still believe that being really sore after a workout means I got a killer workout, but I may still get a killer workout even if I don't feel sore afterwards.
I answered it with a NO in the first line
lifting light weights for high reps may cause soreness but no gains
Oh but it will cause 'gains' of some sort. Proper nutrition/calorie surplus is the most important part of gaining muscle mass. At the very least it will cause 'gains' in muscle endurance. I've been going to a body pump class (light weights with lots of reps) for some time now and have worked my way up in the weights I use for the class. One time this muscle bound guy from the weight room showed up to join a class. Clearly this guy had put in a lot of time lifting heavy and could definitely out lift me in the weight room. Despite the instructors cautioning him to go a little bit lighter with his weights since it was his first class he was determined to mimic the same weights I was using since I was the only other guy in class. Of course as the class went on he failed horribly and was usually dropping his bar and taking multiple breaks before we were even half way through the 5 minute tracks for each exercise. I couldn't help but chuckle within myself watching him. He hasn't returned since. So I feel like there are definitely 'gains' to be had from lighter lifting, and I still feel like soreness after your workout generally indicates that you had a great workout. I do agree with you that you don't have to be sore to have had a great workout though, as your body will adapt.
i agree there are definite gains from high rep range(12-15), but mainly for endurance not size and strength.Having said that it doesn't mean size and strength won't improve , but high rep is not the ideal way to go about it.
no difference btwn high rep and low rep for size, just have to get near failure. (for strength, yes, better to go with lower reps)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404827/
thanks for the link..is a good study
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-002-0681-6
this one disagrees
np, i like this one too
I'm wondering how comparable they are, though; looks like were differences in volume - the high-rep group in the study you linked to did two sets of 20-28 RM ( bit lower than 30% RM) with one minute rest, while in the one i found, it was "three sets performed to the point of fatigue with 30% of 1RM (30%-3)."
i was searching around..found this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538
3 sets of 10RM vs 7 sets 3RM
same conclusion
but study seems flawed idk..
1.load lifted is same
2.volume is didfferent
3.subjects well trained
4.how the hell are well trained subjects lifting such a 100% RM? with a 10 rep set lol??
hmm that's worded confusingly
I think they're saying they lifted their 10-rep max?
(i'm always happy to see research supporting higher reps for size, because that's all I can do at the moment
, and that's mostly what I want 
- so thank you )
no problem ...it did put a few dents on my 8-10 rep range viewpoint lol...but if there's enough proof then i'm ready to turn around my whole workout plan..( currently doing high reps only for biceps, tri's and calves)
That's cool that you've got an open mind From what I've read, 8-10 is the sweet spot for strength & hypertrophy, and doesn't risk undue CNS stress or overuse injury. Ironically, overuse injuries are what's preventing me from using that rep range for now, at least 0 -
I am so lost on this thread. I do know the OP unsolicited advice threads always get funny so I am in.0
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workout_freak89 wrote: »I joined my local gym last week to get my fitness back after a 12yr break due to illness. I went last Monday, my first day and my fitness instructor said "no pain no gain"! He stated if your not "sore" the next day your not working hard enough? I've been 4 times this week and was very sore after the first 2 day's and a little bit sore yesterday. Today not bad at all. I can certainly feel the hard work I've done.
that instructor is full of bro science! please ask for a different one..or better do it yourself
I took a 3 month gym membership ,stepped in the gym first day, had a talk with the instructor and decided it wasn't for me...training at my humble home gym since then and making great gains
I am sure the personal trainer said that after the client said I haven't worked out in 12 years. 12 years I am reading that correctly. Long lay off and yes a lot of the beginning days should be filled with Doms.
I had a month off due to illness and came back to doms that I have not felt in 4 years.
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workout_freak89 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »I was merely being polite in the above post...While I do not claim to know everything, i do know almost everything there is to know which will directly or indirectly affect my results in a major fashion.I don't bother much about the minor details that have little or no signifance as far as performance or results of my training and nutrition are concerned.
Also, the reason why people seem to get offended by my "tone" is because my confidence sometimes gets mistaken as arrogance...however almost every fact that i quote is reference based and backed up by research.For the things that I do not quote , it is mostly out of laziness of lack of time
"I know what i know...If i do not know it's because there is no need to know"
But dude...you've posted a lot of what was, in my opinion, rubbish too sad phrased it as though it's gospel and everyone should listen to you.
So you don't really know "almost everything" for everyone, just what has worked / not harmed you (n=1)
I have yet to see you back up any of your assertions with any valid sources ...you should do that ...it gives you some credibility at least
please be a little specific...tell me about what according to you was incorrect ...part of the post / the whole post/ the tone of the post or everything in general?
more convenient if you would actually quote the lines (unless the post has been already taken down lol)
Well on the one yesterday
The thing you said about pre-workout nutrition being crucial amongst others
I can't remember the other parts I felt were personal choice I'm afraid
Yeah I called him out on that. He said basically pre workout is a must and is very important.
I never used PWO and have been weight training for close to a decade. Well I used it once.
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I would have to disagreeworkout_freak89 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »I joined my local gym last week to get my fitness back after a 12yr break due to illness. I went last Monday, my first day and my fitness instructor said "no pain no gain"! He stated if your not "sore" the next day your not working hard enough? I've been 4 times this week and was very sore after the first 2 day's and a little bit sore yesterday. Today not bad at all. I can certainly feel the hard work I've done.
that instructor is full of bro science! please ask for a different one..or better do it yourself
I took a 3 month gym membership ,stepped in the gym first day, had a talk with the instructor and decided it wasn't for me...training at my humble home gym since then and making great gains
I am sure the personal trainer said that after the client said I haven't worked out in 12 years. 12 years I am reading that correctly. Long lay off and yes a lot of the beginning days should be filled with Doms.
I had a month off due to illness and came back to doms that I have not felt in 4 years.
all the more reason not to push a begginer to the edge..this is the #1 reason why people take a gym membership ,the instructor pushes them too hard ( it's not a military training camp for god's sake !) and after a few days they stop showing up altogether because DOMS interferes with their daily routine..plus they are just too sore to keep up with their 6 days a week dumb**s workout
As a begginer when they should be exploiting their begginer super stregth for making tremendous gains, the dumb instructor (totally clueless himself) will assist them down the spiral.
anyone starting out with weight training should be not be lifting more than 3 days a week doing full body workout with compounds imho
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workout_freak89 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »workout_freak89 wrote: »I joined my local gym last week to get my fitness back after a 12yr break due to illness. I went last Monday, my first day and my fitness instructor said "no pain no gain"! He stated if your not "sore" the next day your not working hard enough? I've been 4 times this week and was very sore after the first 2 day's and a little bit sore yesterday. Today not bad at all. I can certainly feel the hard work I've done.
that instructor is full of bro science! please ask for a different one..or better do it yourself
I took a 3 month gym membership ,stepped in the gym first day, had a talk with the instructor and decided it wasn't for me...training at my humble home gym since then and making great gains
I am sure the personal trainer said that after the client said I haven't worked out in 12 years. 12 years I am reading that correctly. Long lay off and yes a lot of the beginning days should be filled with Doms.
I had a month off due to illness and came back to doms that I have not felt in 4 years.
all the more reason not to push a begginer to the edge..this is the #1 reason why people take a gym membership ,the instructor pushes them too hard ( it's not a military training camp for god's sake !) and after a few days they stop showing up altogether because DOMS interferes with their daily routine..plus they are just too sore to keep up with their 6 days a week dumb**s workout
As a begginer when they should be exploiting their begginer super stregth for making tremendous gains, the dumb instructor (totally clueless himself) will assist them down the spiral.
anyone starting out with weight training should be not be lifting more than 3 days a week doing full body workout with compounds imho
I disagree too. People need to know they will have Doms. You take 12 years off from anything and of course it will feel like it's the first time you done it ever. That is just lack of knowledge or communication. I knew I would and will have Doms from going back to the gym.
Even on a 3x full body program if intensity is enough a beginner will get doms.
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It takes milli seconds from the time you flip a light switch to the light turning on. We could go into the whole process............................or just tell someone if they can't see a dark room to just turn on the light.workout_freak89 wrote: »
Let's make this easy for everyone to understand instead of going through textbook terminology and jargon that no one really cares about. Glycogen stores would have to be depleted. A rarity for the average person or gym rat even in 2 hours of exercise. Elite athlete, another story.workout_freak89 wrote: »
Incorrect. Fat burning happens most with a calorie deficit and at rest (since it's the primary source of energy). Any physical activity will first use glycogen before even touching any fat stores. One doesn't need to do any cardio at all, and can do it by weight lifting alone if calorie deficit is good enough.workout_freak89 wrote: »add cardio and interval training alternately to them keeping atleast one day ( sunday ) for rest
reason- fat burning occurs more by cardio and interval training than weight lifting
Cardio is for cardio vascular health and helps to burn more calories to either create a higher calorie deficit, or give some room to eat more calories if a calorie deficit it high enough.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
rate of calorie consumption depends on heart rate which depends on level of intensity of the physical activity...
In general , interval training > cardio (steady state) > weight training
this is considering that the fact that the workouts done have been for the same duration
again the above is not always true because- weight training can be done as a form of metabolic training with very low rest times...In such a case it will obviously burn more calories than cardio
- the same activity can be performed as steady state cardio or as interval training...consider walk vs jogging vs sprinting vs marathon run
"Fat burning happens most with a calorie deficit and at rest (since it's the primary source of energy). Any physical activity will first use glycogen before even touching any fat stores"
no one is refuting the fact that aerobic oxidation doesn't last long for providing the necessary amount of energy to sustain the activity in question... and anerobic oxidation forms Lactate...here's the rest of the story though--- the Lactate goes through Cori's cycle in the liver where it forms Pyruvate and shuttles back to muscle.
After the activity has finished the pyruvate goes to the KREB'S CYCLE aka CITRIC ACID cycle and gives NET 36 ATP's from NADH via OXIDATIVE PHOSPHORYLATION
where does fat come in the picture???
The HORMONE SENSITIVE LIPASE splits the fat molecule to 2 things-- glycerol molecule--- which either forms pyruvate which will release ATP's ultimately
- fatty acid--- which enters BETA OXIDATION and releases further more ATP's.
This is how 1g of fat releases 9 calories (approx)..when you add in all the ATP's from all the metabolic cycles
now with basic biochemistry out of the way let's address your question
The muscle glycogen exists for the sole purpose of ready-to-use-energy...In a calorie excess the extra calories from any source- fat, carb, prt) will either- provide energy to synthesize new muscle , or
- get deposited as fat
now what makes (1) to be preferentially happening over (2) is A MUSCLE STIMULUS aka WEIGHT TRAINING
conversely , in a deficit, the energy from fat will be used to replenish the muscle glycogen stores
so again...where am i wrong???
Cardio, weight training, plyometrics all burn calories. If one is in a calorie deficit, regardless if they exercise or not, fat loss will happen and dependent on whether or not there's enough muscle stimulation, some degree of lean tissue.
Unless there's alcohol in the system, fat is the primary source of energy at rest. We rest more than we workout so it's important that rest is part of any fat loss or weight loss regimen.
Eat some carbs, glycogen (which can be consumed in deficit) gets restored bypassing the use for fat to do the same.
I'll address the DOMS too. DOMS doesn't need to be consistent after workouts. However, getting DOMS from a workout not regularly done by a person who is consistent with regular exercise, CAN be a killer workout. For example, someone squats 2 times a week doing a 5x5 method. Then they do a workout of 3x25 reps. In major DOMS the next 2 days. That for that person was a "killer" workout. So it's subjective point of view depending on who you're hearing it from.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The terminology needs to be quoted because- people want to understand whats happening inside our bodies from a scientific point of view...which is in fact the approach that should be followed for any topic involving a rational evidence based discussion ( distinguishing actual science from bro science)
- understanding the basis of metabolism is the prerequite for any intelligent discussion involving how and what muscle and fat metabolise.You are an A.C.E certified trainer yourself.. you do know that any researcher carrying out a study is well versed in these basic concepts and these studies are what we quote as reference material when we are distinguishing fact from fiction
- i have tried to summarise the whole process of muscle metabolism and fat metablism INCLUDING your glycogen concern which you have mentioned yet again because that is needed to explain how fat and muscle are intimately interrelated....one thing has an effect on the other...
- rather than stating MY PERSONAL OPINION i have stated TEXTBOOK FACTS so that anyone who reads it and understands the basics can come to their own conclusion ..if you find there is something factually incorrect ( incorrect jargon in your words ) in what i have stated , please quote that with a reference and i shall modify it..Also, kindly go through a standard biochemistry textbook or google the terms in uppercase for a better understanding.
- Most of the members here are very educated and well informed in the field of health and nutrtion evidenced by the series of previous comments and intelligent discussions ...Rather than just doubting members' intelligence and stating that people don't care about "jargon" , it would be more appropriate if you say that it is your individual view point that you decided to skip over the technical stuff because actual science was not so appealing..
as for the fact that If someone doesn't want to read it , he/she will not read it.simple
in fact I deliberately left out the hormonal affects (insulin, adrenalin,cortisol, testosterone levles ) as that is actually what governs the whole metabolic events in the first place...a topic for another time maybe
p.s. if i have broken any forums rules, you are free to modify/delete my post..but it's a sincere request to kindly provide a warning first instead of shutting down the whole thread ( as happened with my previous three articles)..It's hard to actually get a good conversation going where people contribute some good , cool stuff
While I completely see your point, no one really cares about the chemical steps the body takes to lose weight. They just want to lose weight.
KISS method will usually win here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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To humor you. Alcohol cannot be stored nor converted into fat, so it HAS to be metabolized out of the body before any other energy source is touch. It DOESN'T go through digestion but is directly absorbed in the bloodstream. CORRECT FACTS.workout_freak89 wrote: »Let's make this easy for everyone to understand instead of going through textbook terminology and jargon that no one really cares about. Glycogen stores would have to be depleted. A rarity for the average person or gym rat even in 2 hours of exercise. Elite athlete, another story.
Cardio, weight training, plyometrics all burn calories. If one is in a calorie deficit, regardless if they exercise or not, fat loss will happen and dependent on whether or not there's enough muscle stimulation, some degree of lean tissue.
The muscle glycogen exists for the sole purpose of ready-to-use-energy...In a calorie excess the extra calories from any source- fat, carb, prt) will either
provide energy to synthesize new muscle , or
get deposited as fat
now what makes (1) to be preferentially happening over (2) is A MUSCLE STIMULUS aka WEIGHT TRAINING
ok so we agree till here..(minus the jargon)Unless there's alcohol in the system, fat is the primary source of energy at rest. We rest more than we workout so it's important that rest is part of any fat loss or weight loss regimen.
some more jargon
alcohol metabolism
in our body when whiskey, whine,rum, beer (anything with alcohol) enters here's the series of steps it goes through
ethyl alcohol--->acetaldehyde--->acetic acid
acetaldehyde is a ketone
ketones can form from fats as well and can be converted into them
FACT #1- now you know why excess alcohol causes bear belly..alcohol's caloric value is 7 cal/g ( whuch is quite high c.f. fats)...excess will get converted to fats which deposit in and around liver ( causing fatty liver FACT #2)
so what exactly do ypu mean by unless there's excess alcohol in the sytem???excess calories from carbs or alcohol or even from protein will form fats..and primary source at rest is blood glucose not fat..fat replenishes muscle glycogen during rest after exercise ONLY IN A DEFICIT STATE...dietary protein or carbs in the form of blood glucose replenish it during CALORIE EXCESS
please state correct facts or verify your information before posting atleast
So you're saying you can't eat minimal protein and fats, then the rest in carbs while staying in deficit? I know what glycogen is. I KNOW it has to be depleted enough during moderate physical activity before fat is utilized and that's not an "easy" task. Again, why make it more complicated?Eat some carbs, glycogen (which can be consumed in deficit) gets restored bypassing the use for fat to do the same.
FACT #3- GLYCOGEN
here's the jargon link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21190/
glycogen is many many many glucose molecules linked together
glycogen is made by the body ( not eaten..unless you mean the preformed one in meat )
you cannot take more glycogen in a deficit (even if there are consumable sources i'm unaware of) because it is equivalent to eating more glucose meaning you are actually reducing your deficit by eating more of it..so no
I'm not going to turn this into a debate on knowledge because it would derail the thread. You are more than welcome to start your own thread on the subject and stop derailing this one from the OP.FACT#4 depleted muscle glycogen will be replenished by carbs in an excess and fat in a deficit ( PROTEIN IN BOTH CASES IF A PERSON IS NOT PROVIDING MUSCLE STIMULUS / WEIGHT TRAINING)
NOW WE KNOW THE REASON WHY FAT LOSS DIETS/LOSING FAT /BEING IN A DEFICIT SHOULD BE ACCOMPANIED BY WEIGHT TRAINING
I haven't even started with your explanation of DOMS yet
please it's a request.. dont post pseudo facts and misinformation....you are a certified trainer and people look upto you..also please provide references for any future posts unless it is well established jargon
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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