Sugar and carb addiction addiction
Replies
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I understand that a release in and of itself does not mean addiction. consider the post as a whole instead of cherry picking
"But a small percentage of people may truly become addicted, experiencing the type of loss of control around food that is characteristic of addiction, Frascella said."
in normal people, normal things happen in their brains, but for some people their brains react abnormally. and this can be/lead to addiction.
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You're still not getting it. The dopamine rising happens in food because it is viewed as a reward. This happens to an extent for almost all humans, and in fact nearly all mammals. It also lowers afterwards.I understand that a release in and of itself does not mean addiction. consider the post as a whole instead of cherry picking
"But a small percentage of people may truly become addicted, experiencing the type of loss of control around food that is characteristic of addiction, Frascella said."
in normal people, normal things happen in their brains, but for some people their brains react abnormally. and this can be/lead to addiction.
Cocaine isn't just anticipation. It takes the systems that remove dopamine from the brain, and it turns them off to force it to stay incredibly high. It is chemically, not just biologically, forcing dopamine to rise.
To say food is like cocaine is to say prozac is like happiness.0 -
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Ok, so you're a sugar addict or food addict.
What's the solution?
redefining your relationship with the food. food is fuel. what sort of fuel do you want to use in your engine?
also realizing food is neither good or bad and just is. food does not care how you feel. there is a lot of foot work and a lot of retraining that happens from my understanding
Seems a reasonable way to approach it for lots of people.
Also like it's not an addiction but an emotional attachment or dysfunction.
addiction means so many things to so many people it's so hard to take it for it's denotative meaning :the fact or condition of being physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects, to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
I believe it is a dyfunction. a malfunctioning of a "normal" system. an irregularity. I look at it like a disorder like depression. brain doesn't work the same way for a person as it does for the general population
One of my problem with the addiction language in the food context is that most of the time we are talking about things that are quite common and normal. For example, my example upthread of someone having a habit of grabbing a bag of cookies while watching TV (because they weren't concerned about calories) and later wanting to eat less after developing a habit. The addiction thing makes them assume they aren't "normal," that they are eating these cookies because there's something wrong with them, they are different from others, when in fact they are responding in a normal human way to the circumstances and should focus on the habit they've built up and ways in which they are making things hard for themselves (eating out of the bag).0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
I've weighed as much as 310 lb in my life, and was 285 before I started losing weight this time around. I'm not sure how this is someone else's problem. I'm very much not mocking people for having a hard time with losing weight or issues of losing weight. What I will mock is the concept that comparing food to cocaine is true because of a gross misunderstanding of brain scans, and I will definitely mock people who think this will actually help people lose weight by treating food as an addiction akin to cocaine instead of as a unique problem.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.
Humor about someone else's problem is certainly close to mocking. And is likely to be found unhelpful by all who feel addicted to a food.
My understanding is that mocking is against MFP forum rules regardless of the reason.
No one is mocking. Could you please point out where this occurred if you insist on continuing to bring this up?
The poster specifically said "...and I will definitely mock people who..."lemurcat12 wrote:Are people seriously at the point where mocking a concept is equated with mocking the people who buy into that concept?
See above...That's no longer just a....concept.
This is what the poster said:I'm very much not mocking people for having a hard time with losing weight or issues of losing weight. What I will mock is the concept that comparing food to cocaine is true because of a gross misunderstanding of brain scans, and I will definitely mock people who think this will actually help people lose weight by treating food as an addiction akin to cocaine instead of as a unique problem.
He's mocking the concept.
The people he then goes on to say he's mocking (which I skimmed by, admittedly) are NOT those struggling, as was claimed, but those pretending that promotion of a false idea is justifiable on the grounds that it is helpful to those struggling.0 -
I always ask this question and get no answers. If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms? Say if you're addicted to sugar, and it's the middle of the night and you're out of sweets, do you start drinking pasta sauce and salad dressings to get your "fix"? Do you pour yourself a cup of BBQ sauce? Why do some of the people who think they are addicted to sugar feel that fruits are not a suitable replacement for the "real thing" when dose of sugar they provide can be comparable to the real thing? I know I would smoke the most disgusting brand of cigarettes if I had nothing else available, while complaining how disgusting it is and then ask for a second cigarette after a while (that actually happened).0
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For me, I am not ready to say food addiction does not exist, however I do believe it is very rare even though every 2.2 seconds a new thread is started where someone claims to be a food or sugar or carb addict. I find that highly doubtful. And if you do think you are an addict, you should be in treatment. If I look at the diagnostic criteria for substance dependence, I would find it highly unlikely that most people who are overweight would meet the qualifications.
This is exactly how I feel.
I suspect that some with compulsive overeating issues (the people who get to 500 lbs or so) and also some with binge eating disorder have an "eating addiction" (NOT really a food addiction and certainly not a sugar addiction) that is similar to other activity-based addictions (like gambling). I think it's a horrible thing, from the accounts I've read from people who struggled with those. Sounds very similar to other addictions, to me.
The issues with overeating or control over specific foods that prompt the 500 threads a day here claiming "addiction" do not. And I do find it rather insensitive at best to claim it's just like (or often "worse") a heroin addiction, although as I explained above I am trying to come around to the idea that those who make such claims are often the victims of the diet industry and diet gurus current need to portray relatively normal human behavior as "addiction" that requires "treatment" (specifically, their diets or "detoxes" or "cleanses").
I do think it's harmful and distracts from a sensible discussion of what's really going on in a particular case.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
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If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
I still don't understand what the point of this discussion is. Whether someone does or doesn't consider themselves a sugar addict, the course of action to deal with it is the same.
So really, what difference does it make?
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
I understand what you are saying. This is no doubt disordered behaviour. But all the things you mentioned are sweet and taste good. My question was that do they consider it an addiction to the taste or to the substance itself? Say, would sugar pills provide some relief the way an e-cig would?0 -
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
I'd just as soon avoid talking about natural. It certainly doesn't say what is right, plus it is liable to get bogged down in the same arguments about what is natural as what is clean.0 -
Actually, no, if someone is a sugar addict, they don't understand the science and are potentially relying on fads for a crutch and justification. So that has to be dealt with first, unlike someone who needs to lose weight but doesn't consider themselves a sugar addict.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
I still don't understand what the point of this discussion is. Whether someone does or doesn't consider themselves a sugar addict, the course of action to deal with it is the same.
So really, what difference does it make?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
I understand what you are saying. This is no doubt disordered behaviour. But all the things you mentioned are sweet and taste good. My question was that do they consider it an addiction to the taste or to the substance itself? Say, would sugar pills provide some relief the way an e-cig would?
I don't know. As far as I know all of the studies have used highly palatable foods and of course in real world examples foods and sugar are readily available. It's an interesting question though. I suspect there will be a lot more money available for sugar studies in the coming years to "prove" that the recommendations to limit sugar have merit just like they did with fat. Perhaps your question will be answered; it's a good one.
ETA: Although I will say that I don't think sugar sandwiches or syrup out of the bottle and those sorts of things taste good or are desirable. And I can't imagine those being the go to "fix" for anyone but tastes are subjective so I could be wrong about that.0 -
Really? Cocaine is a reuptake inhibitor for dopamine, and doapamine rises from anticipating food. Prozac is a reuptake inhibitor for serotonin. People who are happy are experiencing serotonin levels higher than normal resting.
The whole point is, there's a huge difference between a chemical that is a reuptake inhibitor that forces a certain chemical level, and normal human neuro-chemistry.
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
And that, to answer another user upthread, is why this conversation is important. By having an rational conversation on the different biochemical responses to substance abuse and overeating, we gain a better understanding of the compulsion to overeat and can work towards true recovery for people exhibiting that behavior.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
Hm, well, in some extreme cases, perhaps. But in most cases of obesity where people are claiming food addiction... they are saying "I can't stop eating cookies" or "I eat too many doughnuts" etc. The other day I was in a discussion with one person whose vice was Oreos. See the distinction? It's the taste of the specific food that the person enjoys and wants more of, not the substance of the food.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
Hm, well, in some extreme cases, perhaps. But in most cases of obesity where people are claiming food addiction... they are saying "I can't stop eating cookies" or "I eat too many doughnuts" etc. The other day I was in a discussion with one person whose vice was Oreos. See the distinction? It's the taste of the specific food that the person enjoys and wants more of, not the substance of the food.
and I probably wouldn't consider them addicts either. but I find it's not for me to say
as I said a few times here, I think food addict or sugar addict is thrown around to flippantly0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
True, although I will say that a sugar sandwich sounds disgusting to me, and I've not heard of anyone eating one. Bread and butter? Sure, but again no one claims this means anyone is addicted to fat. Cinnamon toast? (bread, butter, sugar, and cinnamon, heated so it's all melty and crusty)? Someone better offer me a piece!0 -
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
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But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
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I work in a clinic that treats opiate addiction. Without opiates the person goes into physical withdrawal. Opiates are physically addicting. From brain scans that I have seen cocaine and sugar light up the same pathways in the brain. Cocaine however is not physically addicting like opiates such as heroin. Withdrawal symptoms can include fatigue, agitation, and depressed mood. I personally happen to be insulin resistant. When I went on a LCHF diet I went through the same withdrawal symptoms that a cocaine addict might experience. Now I feel great and the thought of my old way of eating has no appeal to me. Is sugar addicting? From my personal experience with opiate addicts and my own diet conundrums sugar is not physically addicting but for certain people it can be difficult to control. The best thing to do for me personally is to avoid it. I am not an addict but my physiology doesn't react well to it.0
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But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
When was the last time you happened upon a batch of fermented fruit laying around in the forest? And what does this have to do with neurochemical reactions to drugs?
@senecarr, do you know the neurotransmitters involved and release sequence for alcohol consumption?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?
I...I don't know that...
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Withdrawal symptoms can include fatigue, agitation, and depressed mood. I personally happen to be insulin resistant. When I went on a LCHF diet I went through the same withdrawal symptoms that a cocaine addict might experience.
That's the low carb flu, which is not a withdrawal. It's your body transitioning from running on its preferred fuel to running on ketones. To call your body's natural use of glucose for fuel a physical dependence on sugar doesn't make much sense, but that's what you are saying if the symptoms related to going into ketogenesis=withdrawal.
I guess in that sense we are all "addicted" to carbs, but if that's how it's being defined there's absolutely nothing negative about it. It's like saying we are addicted to water in that we suffer withdrawal (i.e., thirst or dehydration) if we stop drinking it, or of course from food in that we will suffer negative symptoms and eventually starve if we stop using it.0 -
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
The numbers were from wild fruit. A domesticated fruit like a vinefera grape would be much much higher than that.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
When was the last time you happened upon a batch of fermented fruit laying around in the forest?
Before asking that, you should probably know I actually live next to a forest (and I do mean a forest - not a "park with tall trees").
So the answer to your question is...yesterday morning.
Which is probably related to the fact that a momma bear has taken up temporary residence about 150m from my back door.0
This discussion has been closed.
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