Sugar and carb addiction addiction
senecarr
Posts: 5,377 Member
On carbohydrate addiction addiction
MFP tends to get a sugar / carbohydrate addiction thread about once a day. As such, I thought it would be helpful to have something explaining the neurobiology of what happens in classically addictive substances like cocaine, and why similar chemistry in food consumption might sound like the same thing when reported by lazy science writers throwing out hyperbole for click-bait.
First forewarning – this isn’t meant to belittle or deny anyone’s experience. I am one of the cold science meanies some of MFP hates, but philosophically, I very much believe in compassion and acknowledging people’s experiences – so yes, I’ll validate your feels, and be a hugbox if you want, but only those feelings, and only when asked for. if you want to spout bad or pseudoscience, I won’t validate it not only because I care a great deal about scientific knowledge and process, but also because I believe self-delusion is unhealthy. More so, what I’ve found while studying neuroscience as an amateur enthusiast is that what the brain experiences is real – the humans haven’t evolved new abstract ways of feeling, we’ve just mapped a lot of abstract concept onto physical feedback systems as old as reptiles.
Second – I’ll admit, I’m not a neuroscientist, and as a learner, I’d appreciate feedback and corrections by anyone with knowledge or sources.
On brains makes telephone calls
I’m probably ruining it for anyone interested in quickly looking for something to disagree with, but I think it helps to start by actually understanding the main neurotransmitters involved cocaine, two of which are also involved in eating, and all three of which are involved in depression, which is what started my interest in the subject.
Anyway, sending signals across the tiny distances between neurons in the brain is actually a pretty daunting task. Poor guys can’t even send calls out describing what they want to, they have to kind of write messages in a bottle and chuck it. To make it worse, they can’t even write the message they want, they tend to have to toss neurotransmitters that can be pretty vague and mean sometimes almost conflicting things. Serotonin, for example, is actually 90% in the guts, and yet, lack of it the brain makes you feel kind of crappy. So yeah, you’re brain’s signals are kind of loose, it’s had to rewire the flush it out the body signal to flush it out of your mind signal.
Norepinephrine – this is the one that isn’t involved much in food. It does activate pleasure centers to an extent, and as far as weight loss goes, the most interesting thing is that norepinephrine is that lack of norepinephrine is pretty involved in psycho-motor retardation: the type of nerve fatigue that involves not moving. In CICO terms, it is pretty important for CO, but not as important in controlling CI.
Dopamine – this is probably one of the most misrepresented molecules ever. If someone has heard of dopamine, the off the cuff explanation is that dopamine is the reward chemical of the brain. Well, that’s great, so how do you explain the fact that people with a gambling itch get dopamine signals whether they win or lose, or before they’ve even shook hands with a one armed bandit? Why is that when you hook up a device for rats to activate the dopamine pathways at the push of a button, you see the most response not when the button works every time, but only intermittently? I’d say it is far more accurate to call dopamine the reward ANTICIPATION chemical – and that makes an important distinction in explaining food later on. Some researchers even consider dopamine the incentivizing chemical because it also appears to go off in relation to pain – possibly saying, “pay attention, let’s get away from the large predator mauling us before we lose any more fingers”. I’m still waiting for the addiction people to explain to me why dopamine lighting up an in MRI means we’re addicted to carbohydrates, but no one says we’re addicted to getting pin pricks when MRI scans show dopamine activity too.
Serotonin – serotonin is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. For humans, it has effects on appetite, impulse control, and can prevent obsessive / repetitive thoughts. The latter two are why serotonin is a very common target for anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications. Despite being inhibitory, excessive serotonin is also associated with hallucinations, such as caused by psychedelics. Of particular interest is the fact that eating activates serotonin, which then down regulates dopamine to reduce appetite.
Pixie sticks vs pixie dust
So, now that we know something about neurotransmitters, let’s look at the excessively simple explanation of what happens with neurotransmitters when eating sugar (potentially any food, but sugar gets the bad rap these days), or when taking cocaine.
Eating sugar: dopamine goes up, spikes, serotonin goes up, dopamine goes down, serotonin eventually lowers as well.
Cocaine: dopamine goes up, stays up a long time, serotonin goes up, stays up a long time, norepinephrine goes up, stays up a long time.
SEE, SEE! THEY’RE ALIKE! IT’S ADDICTION
Remember that part where I said let’s look at the excessively simple explanation? Up your serotonin (control yourself) and follow along at what is very different.
To begin with, it was already said, dopamine isn’t about reward, and that is very important: food is a reward (but please don’t reward yourself with food). I kind of tricked you, dopamine goes up on detecting food, not eating it. You can even get similar effects to happen setting up the classical condition of having a dog condition to anticipate food when a bell rings, and last I checked, no one thought we’d ever caused dogs to have bell addiction. Serotonin actually rises to turn off dopamine as you ingest – you got the reward, let’s stop looking around for more, maybe even find a comfy spot, you know? You found the food, you’re going to survive and maybe reproduce, so hey, we can afford to be a little more still. The cycle actually tends to limit itself.
So what happens with cocaine? Cocaine is a reuptake inhibitor for norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine. Normally, neurotransmitters get recycled all the time (yeah, your brain drives a Prius, get over it), but a reuptake inhibitor tends to jam up the recycling center, and instead, you wind up with neurotransmitters activating neurons over and over again. Normally, like when neurotransmitters handle your appetite, activation upregulates recycling, so there’s a balance. I’ve not personally been around it, but I’m told balanced is not a word normally associated with cocaine use. With the reuptake pumps inhibited, the flooding means a person on cocaine has dopamine causing a high state of arousal (not that kind of arousal, this isn’t the chit-chat forum), serotonin is elevated to the levels that can cause hallucinations, even norepinephrine is up. All of this is recipe for someone that isn’t sitting still any time soon. That’s quite the difference.
But I eliminated da carbzzzz and I got better
Well, let’s look at it in terms of what your neurotransmitters were kludged into working on – problems of existing on the plains of Africa. Normally, finding food, particularly starches, can be hard. It can take work, and you once you find it, you might need to sit still chewing or pounding for a long time to get all those carbs out. Serotonin’s coming in stops dopamine from making you wander around looking for more. Now, in a modern home, find and consuming carbohydrates is relatively easy – it doesn’t take much wandering, and therefore, not much pushing from dopamine. People who eliminate carbs and put them out of their home as a form of elimination diet are kind of repeating this. Yeah, getting in your SUV and going down to the grocery store to get ice cream is less effort than wandering the plains of Africa, but still, it is upping the amount of reward anticipation needed to drive the behavior compared to having it sitting around the house.
In comparison, cocaine keeps arousal and desire high. People will go through incredible painful (both psychologically and physically) to go find more cocaine.
But I had withdrawals like addicts
LOL, no, you didn’t. Keto flu is what you might have had. You can’t detox sugar from your body the way a drug user detoxes the drug from their system. Your body MAKES sugar (glucose) because your brain and a few other things require it to make somethings happen. Yes, ketogenesis can cause the brain to use more ketones than normal for fuel, but your brain will essentially beg, borrow, and steal (including breaking down tissue to steal sugar from the amino acids) to keep up the necessary pathways.
Meanwhile, there also huge differences in what has happened to the neurons between someone giving up carbs, and someone giving up cocaine. All of that force signaling via neurotransmitters that cocaine caused? Well, the neurons don’t like being told to stay constantly alert, and thinking your body is out of balance, they adapt to reduce their receptors to handle what they see as a malfunctioning signal. So, now the cocaine addict comes down, gets it out of their system, and their neurons aren’t reacting ENOUGH to the neurotransmitters like a normal person. This is part of the physical withdrawal that is often clinically called physical dependence to distinguish it from people arguing over what is or isn’t addictive. I’ve yet to hear of sugar addiction causing this kind of negative feedback loop, but I’d be happy to see evidence of it.
MFP tends to get a sugar / carbohydrate addiction thread about once a day. As such, I thought it would be helpful to have something explaining the neurobiology of what happens in classically addictive substances like cocaine, and why similar chemistry in food consumption might sound like the same thing when reported by lazy science writers throwing out hyperbole for click-bait.
First forewarning – this isn’t meant to belittle or deny anyone’s experience. I am one of the cold science meanies some of MFP hates, but philosophically, I very much believe in compassion and acknowledging people’s experiences – so yes, I’ll validate your feels, and be a hugbox if you want, but only those feelings, and only when asked for. if you want to spout bad or pseudoscience, I won’t validate it not only because I care a great deal about scientific knowledge and process, but also because I believe self-delusion is unhealthy. More so, what I’ve found while studying neuroscience as an amateur enthusiast is that what the brain experiences is real – the humans haven’t evolved new abstract ways of feeling, we’ve just mapped a lot of abstract concept onto physical feedback systems as old as reptiles.
Second – I’ll admit, I’m not a neuroscientist, and as a learner, I’d appreciate feedback and corrections by anyone with knowledge or sources.
On brains makes telephone calls
I’m probably ruining it for anyone interested in quickly looking for something to disagree with, but I think it helps to start by actually understanding the main neurotransmitters involved cocaine, two of which are also involved in eating, and all three of which are involved in depression, which is what started my interest in the subject.
Anyway, sending signals across the tiny distances between neurons in the brain is actually a pretty daunting task. Poor guys can’t even send calls out describing what they want to, they have to kind of write messages in a bottle and chuck it. To make it worse, they can’t even write the message they want, they tend to have to toss neurotransmitters that can be pretty vague and mean sometimes almost conflicting things. Serotonin, for example, is actually 90% in the guts, and yet, lack of it the brain makes you feel kind of crappy. So yeah, you’re brain’s signals are kind of loose, it’s had to rewire the flush it out the body signal to flush it out of your mind signal.
Norepinephrine – this is the one that isn’t involved much in food. It does activate pleasure centers to an extent, and as far as weight loss goes, the most interesting thing is that norepinephrine is that lack of norepinephrine is pretty involved in psycho-motor retardation: the type of nerve fatigue that involves not moving. In CICO terms, it is pretty important for CO, but not as important in controlling CI.
Dopamine – this is probably one of the most misrepresented molecules ever. If someone has heard of dopamine, the off the cuff explanation is that dopamine is the reward chemical of the brain. Well, that’s great, so how do you explain the fact that people with a gambling itch get dopamine signals whether they win or lose, or before they’ve even shook hands with a one armed bandit? Why is that when you hook up a device for rats to activate the dopamine pathways at the push of a button, you see the most response not when the button works every time, but only intermittently? I’d say it is far more accurate to call dopamine the reward ANTICIPATION chemical – and that makes an important distinction in explaining food later on. Some researchers even consider dopamine the incentivizing chemical because it also appears to go off in relation to pain – possibly saying, “pay attention, let’s get away from the large predator mauling us before we lose any more fingers”. I’m still waiting for the addiction people to explain to me why dopamine lighting up an in MRI means we’re addicted to carbohydrates, but no one says we’re addicted to getting pin pricks when MRI scans show dopamine activity too.
Serotonin – serotonin is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. For humans, it has effects on appetite, impulse control, and can prevent obsessive / repetitive thoughts. The latter two are why serotonin is a very common target for anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications. Despite being inhibitory, excessive serotonin is also associated with hallucinations, such as caused by psychedelics. Of particular interest is the fact that eating activates serotonin, which then down regulates dopamine to reduce appetite.
Pixie sticks vs pixie dust
So, now that we know something about neurotransmitters, let’s look at the excessively simple explanation of what happens with neurotransmitters when eating sugar (potentially any food, but sugar gets the bad rap these days), or when taking cocaine.
Eating sugar: dopamine goes up, spikes, serotonin goes up, dopamine goes down, serotonin eventually lowers as well.
Cocaine: dopamine goes up, stays up a long time, serotonin goes up, stays up a long time, norepinephrine goes up, stays up a long time.
SEE, SEE! THEY’RE ALIKE! IT’S ADDICTION
Remember that part where I said let’s look at the excessively simple explanation? Up your serotonin (control yourself) and follow along at what is very different.
To begin with, it was already said, dopamine isn’t about reward, and that is very important: food is a reward (but please don’t reward yourself with food). I kind of tricked you, dopamine goes up on detecting food, not eating it. You can even get similar effects to happen setting up the classical condition of having a dog condition to anticipate food when a bell rings, and last I checked, no one thought we’d ever caused dogs to have bell addiction. Serotonin actually rises to turn off dopamine as you ingest – you got the reward, let’s stop looking around for more, maybe even find a comfy spot, you know? You found the food, you’re going to survive and maybe reproduce, so hey, we can afford to be a little more still. The cycle actually tends to limit itself.
So what happens with cocaine? Cocaine is a reuptake inhibitor for norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine. Normally, neurotransmitters get recycled all the time (yeah, your brain drives a Prius, get over it), but a reuptake inhibitor tends to jam up the recycling center, and instead, you wind up with neurotransmitters activating neurons over and over again. Normally, like when neurotransmitters handle your appetite, activation upregulates recycling, so there’s a balance. I’ve not personally been around it, but I’m told balanced is not a word normally associated with cocaine use. With the reuptake pumps inhibited, the flooding means a person on cocaine has dopamine causing a high state of arousal (not that kind of arousal, this isn’t the chit-chat forum), serotonin is elevated to the levels that can cause hallucinations, even norepinephrine is up. All of this is recipe for someone that isn’t sitting still any time soon. That’s quite the difference.
But I eliminated da carbzzzz and I got better
Well, let’s look at it in terms of what your neurotransmitters were kludged into working on – problems of existing on the plains of Africa. Normally, finding food, particularly starches, can be hard. It can take work, and you once you find it, you might need to sit still chewing or pounding for a long time to get all those carbs out. Serotonin’s coming in stops dopamine from making you wander around looking for more. Now, in a modern home, find and consuming carbohydrates is relatively easy – it doesn’t take much wandering, and therefore, not much pushing from dopamine. People who eliminate carbs and put them out of their home as a form of elimination diet are kind of repeating this. Yeah, getting in your SUV and going down to the grocery store to get ice cream is less effort than wandering the plains of Africa, but still, it is upping the amount of reward anticipation needed to drive the behavior compared to having it sitting around the house.
In comparison, cocaine keeps arousal and desire high. People will go through incredible painful (both psychologically and physically) to go find more cocaine.
But I had withdrawals like addicts
LOL, no, you didn’t. Keto flu is what you might have had. You can’t detox sugar from your body the way a drug user detoxes the drug from their system. Your body MAKES sugar (glucose) because your brain and a few other things require it to make somethings happen. Yes, ketogenesis can cause the brain to use more ketones than normal for fuel, but your brain will essentially beg, borrow, and steal (including breaking down tissue to steal sugar from the amino acids) to keep up the necessary pathways.
Meanwhile, there also huge differences in what has happened to the neurons between someone giving up carbs, and someone giving up cocaine. All of that force signaling via neurotransmitters that cocaine caused? Well, the neurons don’t like being told to stay constantly alert, and thinking your body is out of balance, they adapt to reduce their receptors to handle what they see as a malfunctioning signal. So, now the cocaine addict comes down, gets it out of their system, and their neurons aren’t reacting ENOUGH to the neurotransmitters like a normal person. This is part of the physical withdrawal that is often clinically called physical dependence to distinguish it from people arguing over what is or isn’t addictive. I’ve yet to hear of sugar addiction causing this kind of negative feedback loop, but I’d be happy to see evidence of it.
0
Replies
-
But I like it and don't want to give it up!!
So let's look at what most would cal irrational behavior and see what we want to call it
Someone is over eating gaining weight. They know it and suffer bad consequences. They try to stop but just can't.
A person is diagnosed with diabetes. They are told to reduce sugar immediately. They try but can't. They have toes amputated. They have a hand removed. They are terrified and want to eat right but just fail. They die.
Are they addicts of a type? They have self destructive compulsive behavior. They seem to be genuinely unable to control it. They guy does not want his foot amputated... But he eats doughnuts anyway.
I suggest there are those sort of triggered behaviors with food that are legitimate addictions.
Food addiction is gaining traction as a legitimate addiction
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/mental-health-food-addiction0 -
My thoughts have always been on the "sugar addicts"...they think it is real...they believe it is real...so in a sense all that they are feeling is real.
I think some of it comes from conditioning. What I mean by conditioning is everywhere you turn there is...cut back on sugar...sugar is bad...sugar is the cause of weight gain...etc...etc.
I liken it to if someone is told over and over that they are ugly...bad...worthless...the person begins to believe it. I worked with behavioral children several years ago. The one thing that they all had in common was that they had been told over and over that they were "bad".
For people that believe they are addict to sugar...that have actual physical uncomfortable sensations when deprived of it...I am not sure that they will ever be convinced that sugar addiction does not exist.
Our minds are very powerful entities...it is as if it can convince you of about anything if you want to believe it. It is fascinating to me how the mind works.
I find the whole conversation about "sugar addiction" interesting. I just wish that it could be discussed instead of turning in to a battle.
Your OP was an enjoyable read...even if I didn't quite understand it all.
Thanks for your time of putting it together.0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »But I like it and don't want to give it up!!
So let's look at what most would cal irrational behavior and see what we want to call it
Someone is over eating gaining weight. They know it and suffer bad consequences. They try to stop but just can't.
A person is diagnosed with diabetes. They are told to reduce sugar immediately. They try but can't. They have toes amputated. They have a hand removed. They are terrified and want to eat right but just fail. They die.
Are they addicts of a type? They have self destructive compulsive behavior. They seem to be genuinely unable to control it. They guy does not want his foot amputated... But he eats doughnuts anyway.
I suggest there are those sort of triggered behaviors with food that are legitimate addictions.
Food addiction is gaining traction as a legitimate addiction
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/mental-health-food-addiction
I checked webmd, all it said was I had cancer.
Also, you generally ignored how most of this was how no food addiction is a physical dependency like cocaine. People lose ties to the common failure of selling it future self for the now. Can you tell me people actively offer up toes for pixie sticks or walk over broken glass for it? Or offer to sell their children for it? That's the kind of behavior hard drug addicts commit.0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »But I like it and don't want to give it up!!
So let's look at what most would cal irrational behavior and see what we want to call it
Someone is over eating gaining weight. They know it and suffer bad consequences. They try to stop but just can't.
A person is diagnosed with diabetes. They are told to reduce sugar immediately. They try but can't. They have toes amputated. They have a hand removed. They are terrified and want to eat right but just fail. They die.
Are they addicts of a type? They have self destructive compulsive behavior. They seem to be genuinely unable to control it. They guy does not want his foot amputated... But he eats doughnuts anyway.
I suggest there are those sort of triggered behaviors with food that are legitimate addictions.
Food addiction is gaining traction as a legitimate addiction
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/mental-health-food-addiction
Its NOT the CARBS! Its the FAT! Dietary fat inhibits insulin activity which gives rise to elevated blood sugars. Your hypothetical man is craving carbs because he needs glucose. We all need glucose. His brain needs glucose. Its not because he has an addiction to "carbs". We all have an addiction to carbs because we need it to live! Its not some behavioral game that the mind is playing on us, we need it to live. Maybe your guy shot himself with too much insulin and he's starting to crash? He is going to need glucose to raise his sugar levels to a normal blood level for himself. He reaches for a donut, which is full of fat, and raises his blood sugar levels. But, this time the fat in that donut is working against him because the FAT is the main offender of his issue, not the sugar. So, he pricks his finger to check his blood sugar levels again, and shoots himself with some more insulin. Its a vicious unending cycle. Is he getting any better? Is he curing himself of his diabetes? Does he have type 1 or type 2 diabetes? Is he ridding himself of his insulin medication? Probably not, if he's Type 1, but if he's Type 2 he just might have a chance to cure himself. Cure himself by losing weight and slowing getting off the meds. Getting healthy and feeling better. Not remaining a victim of a disease he has control over if he permanently changes his diet and lifestyle. He doesn't HAVE to have it, but maybe he chooses to be labeled a diabetic because he is not ready to face the REALITY that he does indeed have self-control. Its easier to accept the diagnosis and stay in his comfort zone than it is to really change. Its excuses. It doesn't have to be that way.
Watch this...
https://youtu.be/iosoXlr3ZVI
0 -
TL;DR
If someone wants to self-identify as sugar addicted, that's fine with me, but they better be out there treating it like an addiction if they expect me to take it seriously.
Otherwise, I will feel no guilt at all eating a donut in front of them.0 -
My thoughts have always been on the "sugar addicts"...they think it is real...they believe it is real...so in a sense all that they are feeling is real.
I think some of it comes from conditioning. What I mean by conditioning is everywhere you turn there is...cut back on sugar...sugar is bad...sugar is the cause of weight gain...etc...etc.
I liken it to if someone is told over and over that they are ugly...bad...worthless...the person begins to believe it. I worked with behavioral children several years ago. The one thing that they all had in common was that they had been told over and over that they were "bad".
For people that believe they are addict to sugar...that have actual physical uncomfortable sensations when deprived of it...I am not sure that they will ever be convinced that sugar addiction does not exist.
Our minds are very powerful entities...it is as if it can convince you of about anything if you want to believe it. It is fascinating to me how the mind works.
I find the whole conversation about "sugar addiction" interesting. I just wish that it could be discussed instead of turning in to a battle.
It's a real concern. Just last week a study was released relating to this.
"Charlotte Hardman and colleagues from Liverpool and Bristol conducted a randomized, controlled study of the effects of exposing people to health reports suggesting that food addiction is real versus reports that suggest it is a myth. They found that people who were told it is real were more likely to assess themselves as being food addicts. But they weren’t necessarily more likely to eat more indulgent foods as a result.
Though this study doesn’t resolve the vexing questions of how to deal with food addiction, it does shine a light on the importance of unbiased reporting about it. Health media — and for that matter advocates — who speak with absolute certainty can do real harm. Both extremes are unwarranted. Food addiction is neither bogus nor is it a biological certainty."
Media: http://conscienhealth.org/2015/07/food-addiction-does-thinking-make-it-so/
Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25891042
0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »So let's look at what most would cal irrational behavior and see what we want to call it
Human beings act irrationally all the time. Why call this particular way an "addiction" and not the choice to watch TV instead of studying or any of the million other such examples.
Plus, it's usually not strictly irrational. It's more about being bad at measuring short term vs. long term consequences or not believing adequately in the connection between the actions you should take and the positive long term results. The latter is why accurate information and not the addiction model would be much more helpful.Someone is over eating gaining weight. They know it and suffer bad consequences. They try to stop but just can't.... Are they addicts of a type?
Nope. Again, people make bad choices all the time. So much of this seems to be "but I wouldn't make that choice and I can't understand doing it, thus there must be some other explanation--aha! addiction."
To start, I honestly do not believe they cannot help the behavior. I think when they weigh the options as they see them: "maybe losing weight and avoiding consequences in the long term, perhaps, after a long period of time of sacrifice" vs. "putting it off one more day and having a known pleasure" it's not at all surprising that many people pick option two.
To provide a different result, I think what truly would help is (a) convincing people that it's not such a sacrifice, (b) helping them believe in a concrete way in the positive consequences, and (c) helping them see long term results better and stop thinking just one more day makes no difference. For me this latter part was enormously helpful and resulted when I starting thinking in terms of how fast a year seems to pass these days and placing a time line on my realistic weight loss. Thinking "I could be 150 on October 1" vs. "I really need to start losing weight" made a huge difference in me being able to see a sacrifice as worth it.
And then once I got started I was able to understand it was not really much of a sacrifice.
This mindset change prevented me from continuing to act in a way that to those who haven't been fat must have seemed inexplicable and thus clearly abnormal or "addicted." Ugh.
(And having struggled with an addiction, the ease at which people make the comparison to things that are so different really does bother me and seem ignorant.)
But people seem committed to this frivolous way of understanding "addiction" so I suppose I should just accept it. I do find it incredibly odd that people want to claim the label.0 -
Good lesson. I would have liked to have seen you work insulin into that mix too since it can affect leptin, and alos because many people with carb issues appear to be insulin resistance to some degree.
What are your thoughts on insulin's affects on diet?0 -
I don't think it plays much into the food addiction stuff. Protein can easily raise insulin, yet we don't hear about people talking about being addicted to chicken breast. Just quickly looking into research in the area, while insulin definitely crosses the blood-brain barrier, it doesn't actually appear to alter the brain's glucose metabolic rate. It looks like an area that is still under research.nvsmomketo wrote: »Good lesson. I would have liked to have seen you work insulin into that mix too since it can affect leptin, and alos because many people with carb issues appear to be insulin resistance to some degree.
What are your thoughts on insulin's affects on diet?
I think in terms of tying insulin, ghrelin, and leptin into neurotransmitters, they're more likely to interact with glucocorticoids like cortisol, and thus only play an indirect role.
I'll readily admit, much of my neuro-chemistry knoweldge comes from the primary angle of studying it in depression and pharmaceutical treatment, and learning about it in appetite is secondary.0 -
Educational OP! Bookmarked for future reference.My thoughts have always been on the "sugar addicts"...they think it is real...they believe it is real...so in a sense all that they are feeling is real.
Yes, I see it the same way as this.
They think it's an addiction so they act like it's an addiction. That still doesn't make it an addiction.
It depends on the person as to whether you can help them by going along with their delusion or getting them to see their problem is psychological.
I encourage them to accept that they aren't really having cravings - they just think they are - and can actually eat what they like in moderation.
My mottos are, "Don't believe everything you think", and "challenge your thoughts".0 -
Can you tell me people actively offer up toes for pixie sticks or walk over broken glass for it? Or offer to sell their children for it? That's the kind of behavior hard drug addicts commit.
If they could get cocaine at the 7-11 it would be a useful comparison but the alleged "sugar addicts" don't need to go to these lengths to procure their fix.
I do some work in a prison and there are inmates who regularly complain they can only buy 1 kg of sugar every other week - and that's on top of the food provided and other sweet things they can buy. 5 teaspoons of sugar in a mug of tea anyone ?
I agree that the actual drug addicts on methadone etc are a different kettle of fish, in general they have grey complexions and multiple medical and mental health issues resulting from their addiction.
0 -
Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.0
-
IMO...there are different types of addiction...physical addiction...psychological addiction. Certainly they are different but in a sense they both create that dependency upon an outside factor.
I never thought about "food addiction" until I joined MFP. I have never applied that term to my own weight gain. I knew why I was gaining weight...knew the reasons why I turned to food to fill a void. I told myself often that I had to get it under control...I certainly tried on several occasions. In the end...I kept turning back to food...seeking the comfort that I couldn't find through what one might call "normal" means.
After gaining 100+ lbs (don't ask what the + was...I don't know) and a trip to DC something clicked. Even after that click twice I have turned back to food. First time I lost 40lbs...gained it all back. Second time I lost 80lbs...gained more than half of it back. So this is my third time to tackle this weight loss.
Was I/am I addicted to food...NO. Have I suffered withdrawals...NO. I was however dependent upon food for my "high" on most days. I used it for a way to occupy my mind...to give me a few minutes of pleasure. That is what I have had to come to terms with and find other ways of accomplishing that "high".
I get why people feel as if they need to "detox". What they don't understand...IMO...is that they don't need to "detox" physically but instead maybe mentally. Maybe it is just the ceremony of doing something different...being successful at making it to the end of a certain length of time...that gives the that feeling of euphoria that they report.
I am not recommending that anyone go along with the "I am addicted to food/sugar/carbs." mentality. I do believe however that our approach to these people might be a little harsh. I think that when we see these threads about addiction and detox they get responses that sends the OP scurrying off and not the help that they are seeking.
IDK...I just think it is more complicated than someone yelling at them...have some self-control...learn some moderation...etc...etc...
0 -
The Sugar Wars
So much wrong in this thread
It is the carbs not the fat...
Dietary fat does not make you IR. your own body fat contributes to it.
CICO always matters
Mental addiction can drive people to self destruction not just physical
Yes you can work out long and hard on low carb. I do it often. Yesterday on 50 carbs after work.
On low carb you can out perform lots of people eating a variety of diets. That you can't is a myth.
I'm in the Map My Ride Challenge with 48,000 participants across the country.
I'm in the top 7%. This bit of not being able to enjoy an active life on low carb is silly.
The MFP sugar wars are a waste of time when we could be sharing what actually works instead of what goes on now.
Bottom line.....
What are you actually doing, what is working and helping you be your best.
If you have a friend that has a weakness for sugar, yelling at them won't help. If they have an outright obsessive behavior they may need help to find out why.
Arguing semantics as the nation gets fatter and fatter, with weight related health problems are decimating our healthcare budget....
Is this approach the solution?
If anyone wants ideas on what helped me kick the sugar habit just message.
I'm out!!!
Got a busy day!!
0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »The Sugar Wars
So much wrong in this thread
It is the carbs not the fat...
Dietary fat does not make you IR. your own body fat contributes to it.
CICO always matters
Mental addiction can drive people to self destruction not just physical
Yes you can work out long and hard on low carb. I do it often. Yesterday on 50 carbs after work.
On low carb you can out perform lots of people eating a variety of diets. That you can't is a myth.
I'm in the Map My Ride Challenge with 48,000 participants across the country.
I'm in the top 7%. This bit of not being able to enjoy an active life on low carb is silly.
The MFP sugar wars are a waste of time when we could be sharing what actually works instead of what goes on now.
Bottom line.....
What are you actually doing, what is working and helping you be your best.
If you have a friend that has a weakness for sugar, yelling at them won't help. If they have an outright obsessive behavior they may need help to find out why.
Arguing semantics as the nation gets fatter and fatter, with weight related health problems are decimating our healthcare budget....
Is this approach the solution?
If anyone wants ideas on what helped me kick the sugar habit just message.
I'm out!!!
Got a busy day!!
Sugar doesn't make you insulin resistant either. Barring genetics, you won't be insulin resistant without being in a sustained calorie surplus. Saying it is sugar is a gross simplification.
Also, complaining people are arguing semantics when you're just plain posting ideology without actually responding to anything said? You're not here for discussion, you're here to blast an opinion and hope it cancels out. That shows that what you have is an ideology, not an understanding. An ideologue can't have his opinion changed, someone with understanding is willing to update with new information and nuisance.0 -
Okay...not sure if I have a response to all of this...I'll let someone else take this one!0
-
My thoughts have always been on the "sugar addicts"...they think it is real...they believe it is real...so in a sense all that they are feeling is real.
This is why I tell people if they truly think they're addicted, it's time to go talk to a therapist. I think quite a few people have strong psychological responses to food that have to get worked out.
You mentioned a little after this quote physical v. psychological addiction. From my [not professional] understanding, compulsion is similar to the concept of psychological addiction, which, again, is why I usually think a trip to the therapist is the best idea.
0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »But I like it and don't want to give it up!!
So let's look at what most would cal irrational behavior and see what we want to call it
Someone is over eating gaining weight. They know it and suffer bad consequences. They try to stop but just can't.
A person is diagnosed with diabetes. They are told to reduce sugar immediately. They try but can't. They have toes amputated. They have a hand removed. They are terrified and want to eat right but just fail. They die.
Are they addicts of a type? They have self destructive compulsive behavior. They seem to be genuinely unable to control it. They guy does not want his foot amputated... But he eats doughnuts anyway.
I suggest there are those sort of triggered behaviors with food that are legitimate addictions.
Food addiction is gaining traction as a legitimate addiction
http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/mental-health-food-addiction
Well, I'd question using webmd as a source for medical information. It's not a noted 'expert' source. Since you can pretty much be diagnosed with cancer with any list of symptoms....
By a loose definition of 'addiction' food addition is gaining traction.... along the same lines as sex addiction and gambling addictions. These things do destroy lives, because people don't take ownership for the things that are causing them to avoid what their real problems are and they turn to whatever makes them feel better, be it food or sex or gambling. That's a mental health issue.
NOT the same thing as a true 'addiction'.... as in heroin, cocaine, and even nicotine and alcohol.0 -
Please don't get nuked tonight. I'd like something to read during lunch tomorrow.
0 -
ETA: Great post, @senecarr I might try to find a graphic that maps out those processes. I think I could follow it better visually.stephanieluvspb wrote: »Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.
Someone already mentioned that sugar addicts can get their fix pretty much anywhere, which is the same case with cigarettes. However, what happens when you take away that ability, when a person can't easily get them? Having been a smoker with literally no money, "extreme" becomes relative. Is it extreme to panhandle for cigarettes? How about pulling long butts out of public ashtrays? Grabbing lit stubs people drop before going inside a building? Knicking a pack from an open purse or jacket pocket on a subway?
0 -
Ok. For the sake of argument, let's go with "it's an addiction".
Then what?
0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »ETA: Great post, @senecarr I might try to find a graphic that maps out those processes. I think I could follow it better visually.stephanieluvspb wrote: »Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.
Someone already mentioned that sugar addicts can get their fix pretty much anywhere, which is the same case with cigarettes. However, what happens when you take away that ability, when a person can't easily get them? Having been a smoker with literally no money, "extreme" becomes relative. Is it extreme to panhandle for cigarettes? How about pulling long butts out of public ashtrays? Grabbing lit stubs people drop before going inside a building? Knicking a pack from an open purse or jacket pocket on a subway?
As a smoker, when I was once really broke (and only had money for food), doing something similar to those actions occurred to me to get my fix. But then again, I reasoned it was stupid to do something so extreme for a legal substance that I could walk into almost any store and purchase. Now, I didn't steal or anything but I did skip buying groceries, that's how motivating the addition can be. It's easier to ask for food money than cigarette money, and it sure was easy to get my subsidized high-fructose corn syrup at Kroger.0 -
IMO...there are different types of addiction...physical addiction...psychological addiction. Certainly they are different but in a sense they both create that dependency upon an outside factor.
I never thought about "food addiction" until I joined MFP. I have never applied that term to my own weight gain. I knew why I was gaining weight...knew the reasons why I turned to food to fill a void. I told myself often that I had to get it under control...I certainly tried on several occasions. In the end...I kept turning back to food...seeking the comfort that I couldn't find through what one might call "normal" means.
After gaining 100+ lbs (don't ask what the + was...I don't know) and a trip to DC something clicked. Even after that click twice I have turned back to food. First time I lost 40lbs...gained it all back. Second time I lost 80lbs...gained more than half of it back. So this is my third time to tackle this weight loss.
Was I/am I addicted to food...NO. Have I suffered withdrawals...NO. I was however dependent upon food for my "high" on most days. I used it for a way to occupy my mind...to give me a few minutes of pleasure. That is what I have had to come to terms with and find other ways of accomplishing that "high".
I get why people feel as if they need to "detox". What they don't understand...IMO...is that they don't need to "detox" physically but instead maybe mentally. Maybe it is just the ceremony of doing something different...being successful at making it to the end of a certain length of time...that gives the that feeling of euphoria that they report.
I am not recommending that anyone go along with the "I am addicted to food/sugar/carbs." mentality. I do believe however that our approach to these people might be a little harsh. I think that when we see these threads about addiction and detox they get responses that sends the OP scurrying off and not the help that they are seeking.
IDK...I just think it is more complicated than someone yelling at them...have some self-control...learn some moderation...etc...etc...
I like this post and really agree.
I personally have softened a bit in my feelings about the "sugar addiction" thing. When I first ran into it -- I hadn't before MFP either -- it really offended me somewhat, because comparing the kind of out of control feelings that I suspect we've all experienced about food from time to time with true drug or alcohol addiction seemed really over the top and insensitive, and ignorant of what's so horrible about addiction (and so destructive to those around you usually). And when I started there were various experienced posters (especially that Joanne Monitz person, or something like that) who would directly compare sugar with hard drugs like heroin and even claim it was worse.
My reaction was to wonder why people would WANT to claim addiction (most addicts tend to be quite resistant to doing so IME) and it seemed to me (and still does often) that the reason was to claim that unlike others they couldn't help gaining weight and couldn't lose it. Moreover, they often seemed to think they SHOULD want to lose weight but not really want to change the habit they thought they should change, so they claimed addiction as their reason they couldn't. In that I feel strongly (and am invested in) the idea that being an addict DOES NOT mean you have an excuse or can't stop, it again offended me.
Like I said, I've softened, though, and one major reason is that I hadn't realized how common the idea is in the dieting world, especially if you read some of the gurus or the like. I finally searched the internet to kind of run down the idea and everyone and their brother in the "you need my help to lose weight" camps are telling people they are addicted.
This doesn't make me friendlier to those promoting the idea, or change my view that the idea itself is unhelpful and destructive, but it does make me more sympathetic to those who claim addiction and willing to try to help (as I try to do). That said, I think help requires more specifics than we usually get and it's particularly NOT helpful when people immediately jump to the conclusion that they have an issue with carbs in general and must do keto or, similarly, that they can't moderate and also must do a detox, which is also advice they get that often leads to the threads becoming battlegrounds.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »ETA: Great post, @senecarr I might try to find a graphic that maps out those processes. I think I could follow it better visually.stephanieluvspb wrote: »Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.
Someone already mentioned that sugar addicts can get their fix pretty much anywhere, which is the same case with cigarettes. However, what happens when you take away that ability, when a person can't easily get them? Having been a smoker with literally no money, "extreme" becomes relative. Is it extreme to panhandle for cigarettes? How about pulling long butts out of public ashtrays? Grabbing lit stubs people drop before going inside a building? Knicking a pack from an open purse or jacket pocket on a subway?
I agree that the lack of extreme behavior to obtain a legal "drug" isn't evidence as to its addictiveness.
The fact no one eats sugar out of the jar and the VAST majority of people prefer sugar only when mixed with fat seems relevant, though. I frankly don't like cane sugar if it's not mixed with fat, but I can overeat sugar+fat. I also can overeat protein+fat and, hmm, cheese. So if you look at that the addictive substance is fat.
(Of course it's not.)
According to some people who looked at the Yale Addiction test (although this did not strike me as very convincing), the food that scored highest on addictiveness was pizza, which tends to have more calories from fat than carbs, easily, and not much sugar, typically. (Well, tomatoes and veg and I do enjoy that kind with pineapple.)0 -
Psychological dependence is a form of dependence that involves emotional–motivational withdrawal symptoms (e.g., a state of unease or dissatisfaction, a reduced capacity to experience pleasure, or anxiety) upon cessation of drug use or engagement in certain behaviors.
IMO...psychological dependence might better describe someone's relationship with food.
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I remember...when I finally had to take a look within myself for answers (and still do) it wasn't pleasant to realize what I had allowed to happen to myself.
I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...0 -
Psychological dependence is a form of dependence that involves emotional–motivational withdrawal symptoms (e.g., a state of unease or dissatisfaction, a reduced capacity to experience pleasure, or anxiety) upon cessation of drug use or engagement in certain behaviors.
IMO...psychological dependence might better describe someone's relationship with food.
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I remember...when I finally had to take a look within myself for answers (and still do) it wasn't pleasant to realize what I had allowed to happen to myself.
I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...
This is a really great point. You may very well be onto something when it comes to people mistaking physical addiction with psychological dependence. I think the former often comes with the latter, but not vice versa.
I've always assumed the physical addiction, due to the accompanying psychological dependence, would be harder to treat. I wonder if a dependence that is purely psychological might actually be more difficult. At least with the physical addiction, once the drug is removed, an addict can see themselves surviving, even thriving, without substance.0 -
Love this post ! It should be a sticky !0
-
thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
+10 -
I didn't get into above because it isn't about the biochem, but I think considering it akin to physical dependence actually does the problem a disservice and reduces the ability to treat it.
The standards models for treating physical dependence start with detox followed by permanent abstinence from the substance for life. I think it there are obvious issues trying to apply that method to food. Even for single food elimination - you can't chemically get rid of the end products of those foods in the body: eliminate sugar or carbs, the body still products glucose.0 -
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I think there's a huge stigma to what I'd call real addictions. People don't lightly claim to be addicted to drugs or alcohol and they usually aren't so anxious to tell everyone. That people talk so lightly about sugar addiction is to me again evidence that we aren't talking about a real addiction, except there's a pretense that it's serious -- again, the whole "more addictive than cocaine! stuff. That's why it tends to make me angry.
I think the real pretense is that it's like a physical dependency on caffeine or cigarettes, which doesn't really have a stigma, since as a mostly physical addiction to a substance that isn't mind altering in those negative ways, but there's a distinction between "addiction" as normally used and physical dependency. The funny thing of course is that sugar very clearly IS NOT analogous to these substances in being able to create a physical dependency. If it's anything, it's emotional.
(I happen to think people can misuse foods for emotional needs in ways that become dysfunctional. I've done it myself and am still prone to it. I think it's inaccurate to call this addiction, to claim it means you lack control or can't help it, and, especially, to compare it to cocaine or heroin addiction.)I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...
It's not that uncommon to find it easier to not eat something than to learn to moderate it, since you might not think about it. It's kind of like how I find it easier to not snack than to try and snack moderately (although that's about timing). In a way the cravings are the result of habits in many cases, and so they need to break the habits. Avoiding something for a while and learning you don't need it is a good way to break a habit.
What I often see is someone used to opening a bag of cookies at night and eating them in front of the TV and finishing the bag deciding that they will eat less so they plan to eat two, but grab the bag and sit in front of the TV and--shock!--end up eating all. And then they claim they must be addicted, because they couldn't help but eat them all. That's not addiction, it's a normal response to habit. For some people, taking two cookies out, putting the bag away, and making sure you have a water or something to drink when the cookies are done to distract you will be easy to do. For others they need to buy single serving cookies, as they will want more even with the bag put away. For others, the watching TV is a trigger to eat, so they need to change their habits in some other way, like by doing something else, but can keep the cookies around so long as they avoid that situation for a while. Others may need to stop with the cookies, period, for a while, as eating them works as the trigger. I think these are important things to understand and work out when trying to change habits--especially if they are also related to emotions--and the focus on addiction and it being really and truly physical, I'm different than people who can exercise control, it's not MY fault I'm fat--tends to distract from what can be a really helpful approach.
The "detox" stuff I do think is placebo and the effect goes away. I think it's kind of like how I wasn't hungry eating 1000 calories (although I wasn't stuffed either) when I first cut my calories. It was a short term effect related to being excited about what I was doing.
Also, to the extent people have cravings or increased hunger due to insulin resistance changing their diets can really help with this, but that's NOT addiction.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions