Sugar and carb addiction addiction
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I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
I'd just as soon avoid talking about natural. It certainly doesn't say what is right, plus it is liable to get bogged down in the same arguments about what is natural as what is clean.0 -
Actually, no, if someone is a sugar addict, they don't understand the science and are potentially relying on fads for a crutch and justification. So that has to be dealt with first, unlike someone who needs to lose weight but doesn't consider themselves a sugar addict.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
I still don't understand what the point of this discussion is. Whether someone does or doesn't consider themselves a sugar addict, the course of action to deal with it is the same.
So really, what difference does it make?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
I understand what you are saying. This is no doubt disordered behaviour. But all the things you mentioned are sweet and taste good. My question was that do they consider it an addiction to the taste or to the substance itself? Say, would sugar pills provide some relief the way an e-cig would?
I don't know. As far as I know all of the studies have used highly palatable foods and of course in real world examples foods and sugar are readily available. It's an interesting question though. I suspect there will be a lot more money available for sugar studies in the coming years to "prove" that the recommendations to limit sugar have merit just like they did with fat. Perhaps your question will be answered; it's a good one.
ETA: Although I will say that I don't think sugar sandwiches or syrup out of the bottle and those sorts of things taste good or are desirable. And I can't imagine those being the go to "fix" for anyone but tastes are subjective so I could be wrong about that.0 -
Really? Cocaine is a reuptake inhibitor for dopamine, and doapamine rises from anticipating food. Prozac is a reuptake inhibitor for serotonin. People who are happy are experiencing serotonin levels higher than normal resting.
The whole point is, there's a huge difference between a chemical that is a reuptake inhibitor that forces a certain chemical level, and normal human neuro-chemistry.
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
And that, to answer another user upthread, is why this conversation is important. By having an rational conversation on the different biochemical responses to substance abuse and overeating, we gain a better understanding of the compulsion to overeat and can work towards true recovery for people exhibiting that behavior.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
Hm, well, in some extreme cases, perhaps. But in most cases of obesity where people are claiming food addiction... they are saying "I can't stop eating cookies" or "I eat too many doughnuts" etc. The other day I was in a discussion with one person whose vice was Oreos. See the distinction? It's the taste of the specific food that the person enjoys and wants more of, not the substance of the food.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
not all of them are eating sugar sandwiches. that was just an example. I would imagine that eating it in a sandwich is making it "more normal"
people do eat straight sugar or eat syrup from the bottle.
fruit does not offer the same punch and so is not the go to.
I wonder if honey would do? or as was mentioned a sugar pill?
Hm, well, in some extreme cases, perhaps. But in most cases of obesity where people are claiming food addiction... they are saying "I can't stop eating cookies" or "I eat too many doughnuts" etc. The other day I was in a discussion with one person whose vice was Oreos. See the distinction? It's the taste of the specific food that the person enjoys and wants more of, not the substance of the food.
and I probably wouldn't consider them addicts either. but I find it's not for me to say
as I said a few times here, I think food addict or sugar addict is thrown around to flippantly0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »If addiction to sugar ( or any food substance) is a true addiction, when the food substance is not available do the "addicted" seek it in other forms?
Yes, they do. They'll make sugar sandwiches, eat syrup out of the bottle, go in the trash and eat food they threw away so they wouldn't eat it, eat their children's snacks, steal money from their elderly parents bank account to buy secret food... the examples are endless if you listen.
That doesn't automatically make it an addiction but it does check off some of the criteria for addiction and there are recovering drug addicts who have said that for them the feelings and behaviors were exactly the same.
Which brings up an interesting point. If one were addicted to food, or even sugar, any form of food or sugar should do, in an emergency. And yet this 'addiction', as described, is very specific to quite particular foods, which is so odd. Making the sugar into a sandwich? Why not just eat the sugar by itself, if the addiction is so specific.... is it so unpalatable, by itself? Ah... there we have the rub. The 'addiction' is not to the food, per se, it is to the taste.
That's what people don't want to admit.
True, although I will say that a sugar sandwich sounds disgusting to me, and I've not heard of anyone eating one. Bread and butter? Sure, but again no one claims this means anyone is addicted to fat. Cinnamon toast? (bread, butter, sugar, and cinnamon, heated so it's all melty and crusty)? Someone better offer me a piece!0 -
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
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But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
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I work in a clinic that treats opiate addiction. Without opiates the person goes into physical withdrawal. Opiates are physically addicting. From brain scans that I have seen cocaine and sugar light up the same pathways in the brain. Cocaine however is not physically addicting like opiates such as heroin. Withdrawal symptoms can include fatigue, agitation, and depressed mood. I personally happen to be insulin resistant. When I went on a LCHF diet I went through the same withdrawal symptoms that a cocaine addict might experience. Now I feel great and the thought of my old way of eating has no appeal to me. Is sugar addicting? From my personal experience with opiate addicts and my own diet conundrums sugar is not physically addicting but for certain people it can be difficult to control. The best thing to do for me personally is to avoid it. I am not an addict but my physiology doesn't react well to it.0
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But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
When was the last time you happened upon a batch of fermented fruit laying around in the forest? And what does this have to do with neurochemical reactions to drugs?
@senecarr, do you know the neurotransmitters involved and release sequence for alcohol consumption?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?
I...I don't know that...
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Withdrawal symptoms can include fatigue, agitation, and depressed mood. I personally happen to be insulin resistant. When I went on a LCHF diet I went through the same withdrawal symptoms that a cocaine addict might experience.
That's the low carb flu, which is not a withdrawal. It's your body transitioning from running on its preferred fuel to running on ketones. To call your body's natural use of glucose for fuel a physical dependence on sugar doesn't make much sense, but that's what you are saying if the symptoms related to going into ketogenesis=withdrawal.
I guess in that sense we are all "addicted" to carbs, but if that's how it's being defined there's absolutely nothing negative about it. It's like saying we are addicted to water in that we suffer withdrawal (i.e., thirst or dehydration) if we stop drinking it, or of course from food in that we will suffer negative symptoms and eventually starve if we stop using it.0 -
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
The numbers were from wild fruit. A domesticated fruit like a vinefera grape would be much much higher than that.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »
But is that for truly wild fruit, or domesticated fruits?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
And what, exactly, is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I think the meaning is refined alcohol tends to be a product of civilization. Yes, fruit ferments and makes "wine", but the percent alcohol by weight/volume/calories is usually rather low.
If that were actually the case, we would have never figured out how to produce our own version of the "natural" stuff.
Alcohol is natural.
Getting drunk on alcohol is natural.
Intentionally seeking out alcohol to get drunk is natural.
Naturally occurring fermenting fruit has an ABV of between 4-7% - higher than the alcohol content of the most popular beer in the US.
When was the last time you happened upon a batch of fermented fruit laying around in the forest?
Before asking that, you should probably know I actually live next to a forest (and I do mean a forest - not a "park with tall trees").
So the answer to your question is...yesterday morning.
Which is probably related to the fact that a momma bear has taken up temporary residence about 150m from my back door.0
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