Sugar and carb addiction addiction
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Ok. For the sake of argument, let's go with "it's an addiction".
Then what?
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tincanonastring wrote: »ETA: Great post, @senecarr I might try to find a graphic that maps out those processes. I think I could follow it better visually.stephanieluvspb wrote: »Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.
Someone already mentioned that sugar addicts can get their fix pretty much anywhere, which is the same case with cigarettes. However, what happens when you take away that ability, when a person can't easily get them? Having been a smoker with literally no money, "extreme" becomes relative. Is it extreme to panhandle for cigarettes? How about pulling long butts out of public ashtrays? Grabbing lit stubs people drop before going inside a building? Knicking a pack from an open purse or jacket pocket on a subway?
As a smoker, when I was once really broke (and only had money for food), doing something similar to those actions occurred to me to get my fix. But then again, I reasoned it was stupid to do something so extreme for a legal substance that I could walk into almost any store and purchase. Now, I didn't steal or anything but I did skip buying groceries, that's how motivating the addition can be. It's easier to ask for food money than cigarette money, and it sure was easy to get my subsidized high-fructose corn syrup at Kroger.0 -
IMO...there are different types of addiction...physical addiction...psychological addiction. Certainly they are different but in a sense they both create that dependency upon an outside factor.
I never thought about "food addiction" until I joined MFP. I have never applied that term to my own weight gain. I knew why I was gaining weight...knew the reasons why I turned to food to fill a void. I told myself often that I had to get it under control...I certainly tried on several occasions. In the end...I kept turning back to food...seeking the comfort that I couldn't find through what one might call "normal" means.
After gaining 100+ lbs (don't ask what the + was...I don't know) and a trip to DC something clicked. Even after that click twice I have turned back to food. First time I lost 40lbs...gained it all back. Second time I lost 80lbs...gained more than half of it back. So this is my third time to tackle this weight loss.
Was I/am I addicted to food...NO. Have I suffered withdrawals...NO. I was however dependent upon food for my "high" on most days. I used it for a way to occupy my mind...to give me a few minutes of pleasure. That is what I have had to come to terms with and find other ways of accomplishing that "high".
I get why people feel as if they need to "detox". What they don't understand...IMO...is that they don't need to "detox" physically but instead maybe mentally. Maybe it is just the ceremony of doing something different...being successful at making it to the end of a certain length of time...that gives the that feeling of euphoria that they report.
I am not recommending that anyone go along with the "I am addicted to food/sugar/carbs." mentality. I do believe however that our approach to these people might be a little harsh. I think that when we see these threads about addiction and detox they get responses that sends the OP scurrying off and not the help that they are seeking.
IDK...I just think it is more complicated than someone yelling at them...have some self-control...learn some moderation...etc...etc...
I like this post and really agree.
I personally have softened a bit in my feelings about the "sugar addiction" thing. When I first ran into it -- I hadn't before MFP either -- it really offended me somewhat, because comparing the kind of out of control feelings that I suspect we've all experienced about food from time to time with true drug or alcohol addiction seemed really over the top and insensitive, and ignorant of what's so horrible about addiction (and so destructive to those around you usually). And when I started there were various experienced posters (especially that Joanne Monitz person, or something like that) who would directly compare sugar with hard drugs like heroin and even claim it was worse.
My reaction was to wonder why people would WANT to claim addiction (most addicts tend to be quite resistant to doing so IME) and it seemed to me (and still does often) that the reason was to claim that unlike others they couldn't help gaining weight and couldn't lose it. Moreover, they often seemed to think they SHOULD want to lose weight but not really want to change the habit they thought they should change, so they claimed addiction as their reason they couldn't. In that I feel strongly (and am invested in) the idea that being an addict DOES NOT mean you have an excuse or can't stop, it again offended me.
Like I said, I've softened, though, and one major reason is that I hadn't realized how common the idea is in the dieting world, especially if you read some of the gurus or the like. I finally searched the internet to kind of run down the idea and everyone and their brother in the "you need my help to lose weight" camps are telling people they are addicted.
This doesn't make me friendlier to those promoting the idea, or change my view that the idea itself is unhelpful and destructive, but it does make me more sympathetic to those who claim addiction and willing to try to help (as I try to do). That said, I think help requires more specifics than we usually get and it's particularly NOT helpful when people immediately jump to the conclusion that they have an issue with carbs in general and must do keto or, similarly, that they can't moderate and also must do a detox, which is also advice they get that often leads to the threads becoming battlegrounds.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »ETA: Great post, @senecarr I might try to find a graphic that maps out those processes. I think I could follow it better visually.stephanieluvspb wrote: »Totally not trying to stir the pot and I really don't believe in sugar addiction, but I don't get when people compare selling their body/stealing from loved ones for the drug. Nicotine is an addictive substance and I've never known anybody, myself included, to do anything that extreme for a pack of cigarettes.
Someone already mentioned that sugar addicts can get their fix pretty much anywhere, which is the same case with cigarettes. However, what happens when you take away that ability, when a person can't easily get them? Having been a smoker with literally no money, "extreme" becomes relative. Is it extreme to panhandle for cigarettes? How about pulling long butts out of public ashtrays? Grabbing lit stubs people drop before going inside a building? Knicking a pack from an open purse or jacket pocket on a subway?
I agree that the lack of extreme behavior to obtain a legal "drug" isn't evidence as to its addictiveness.
The fact no one eats sugar out of the jar and the VAST majority of people prefer sugar only when mixed with fat seems relevant, though. I frankly don't like cane sugar if it's not mixed with fat, but I can overeat sugar+fat. I also can overeat protein+fat and, hmm, cheese. So if you look at that the addictive substance is fat.
(Of course it's not.)
According to some people who looked at the Yale Addiction test (although this did not strike me as very convincing), the food that scored highest on addictiveness was pizza, which tends to have more calories from fat than carbs, easily, and not much sugar, typically. (Well, tomatoes and veg and I do enjoy that kind with pineapple.)0 -
Psychological dependence is a form of dependence that involves emotional–motivational withdrawal symptoms (e.g., a state of unease or dissatisfaction, a reduced capacity to experience pleasure, or anxiety) upon cessation of drug use or engagement in certain behaviors.
IMO...psychological dependence might better describe someone's relationship with food.
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I remember...when I finally had to take a look within myself for answers (and still do) it wasn't pleasant to realize what I had allowed to happen to myself.
I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...0 -
Psychological dependence is a form of dependence that involves emotional–motivational withdrawal symptoms (e.g., a state of unease or dissatisfaction, a reduced capacity to experience pleasure, or anxiety) upon cessation of drug use or engagement in certain behaviors.
IMO...psychological dependence might better describe someone's relationship with food.
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I remember...when I finally had to take a look within myself for answers (and still do) it wasn't pleasant to realize what I had allowed to happen to myself.
I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...
This is a really great point. You may very well be onto something when it comes to people mistaking physical addiction with psychological dependence. I think the former often comes with the latter, but not vice versa.
I've always assumed the physical addiction, due to the accompanying psychological dependence, would be harder to treat. I wonder if a dependence that is purely psychological might actually be more difficult. At least with the physical addiction, once the drug is removed, an addict can see themselves surviving, even thriving, without substance.0 -
Love this post ! It should be a sticky !0
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thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
+10 -
I didn't get into above because it isn't about the biochem, but I think considering it akin to physical dependence actually does the problem a disservice and reduces the ability to treat it.
The standards models for treating physical dependence start with detox followed by permanent abstinence from the substance for life. I think it there are obvious issues trying to apply that method to food. Even for single food elimination - you can't chemically get rid of the end products of those foods in the body: eliminate sugar or carbs, the body still products glucose.0 -
I wonder...there is such a stigma associated with mental illness that people would rather believe that they are physically addicted than psychologically dependent. If there is a physical addiction then there is something else to blame rather than having to admit that the problem...and the answer...lies within themselves.
I think there's a huge stigma to what I'd call real addictions. People don't lightly claim to be addicted to drugs or alcohol and they usually aren't so anxious to tell everyone. That people talk so lightly about sugar addiction is to me again evidence that we aren't talking about a real addiction, except there's a pretense that it's serious -- again, the whole "more addictive than cocaine! stuff. That's why it tends to make me angry.
I think the real pretense is that it's like a physical dependency on caffeine or cigarettes, which doesn't really have a stigma, since as a mostly physical addiction to a substance that isn't mind altering in those negative ways, but there's a distinction between "addiction" as normally used and physical dependency. The funny thing of course is that sugar very clearly IS NOT analogous to these substances in being able to create a physical dependency. If it's anything, it's emotional.
(I happen to think people can misuse foods for emotional needs in ways that become dysfunctional. I've done it myself and am still prone to it. I think it's inaccurate to call this addiction, to claim it means you lack control or can't help it, and, especially, to compare it to cocaine or heroin addiction.)I also wonder...so many have reported their cravings have left after "detox" or removal of a food. Could the detox be working the same as a placebo might? If they believe it will cure them...
It's not that uncommon to find it easier to not eat something than to learn to moderate it, since you might not think about it. It's kind of like how I find it easier to not snack than to try and snack moderately (although that's about timing). In a way the cravings are the result of habits in many cases, and so they need to break the habits. Avoiding something for a while and learning you don't need it is a good way to break a habit.
What I often see is someone used to opening a bag of cookies at night and eating them in front of the TV and finishing the bag deciding that they will eat less so they plan to eat two, but grab the bag and sit in front of the TV and--shock!--end up eating all. And then they claim they must be addicted, because they couldn't help but eat them all. That's not addiction, it's a normal response to habit. For some people, taking two cookies out, putting the bag away, and making sure you have a water or something to drink when the cookies are done to distract you will be easy to do. For others they need to buy single serving cookies, as they will want more even with the bag put away. For others, the watching TV is a trigger to eat, so they need to change their habits in some other way, like by doing something else, but can keep the cookies around so long as they avoid that situation for a while. Others may need to stop with the cookies, period, for a while, as eating them works as the trigger. I think these are important things to understand and work out when trying to change habits--especially if they are also related to emotions--and the focus on addiction and it being really and truly physical, I'm different than people who can exercise control, it's not MY fault I'm fat--tends to distract from what can be a really helpful approach.
The "detox" stuff I do think is placebo and the effect goes away. I think it's kind of like how I wasn't hungry eating 1000 calories (although I wasn't stuffed either) when I first cut my calories. It was a short term effect related to being excited about what I was doing.
Also, to the extent people have cravings or increased hunger due to insulin resistance changing their diets can really help with this, but that's NOT addiction.0 -
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tincanonastring wrote: »At least with the physical addiction, once the drug is removed, an addict can see themselves surviving, even thriving, without substance.
that is certainly not always the case and is frequently the minority
addiction can be an obsession or compulsion. it can take many forms. with people who have an obsession or compulsion with food it is best to consider emotional reasons to eating but in general, develop a new relationship with food.
I've a couple of friends who are consider them food addicts, and their mindset prior to recovery is rather scary and not much different than that of the drug addict or alcoholic or smoker.
addiction can come in many forms and strengths but a true addiction can kill you. be it health complications from obesity to lung cancer to heart attacks to cirrhosis0 -
thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Calling it an addiction obscures the actual problem, as I tried to set out in my posts above.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Calling it an addiction obscures the actual problem, as I tried to set out in my posts above.
I'd agree, and I think I tried to explain the difference in my post as well.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.
Humor about someone else's problem is certainly close to mocking. And is likely to be found unhelpful by all who feel addicted to a food.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.
Humor about someone else's problem is certainly close to mocking. And is likely to be found unhelpful by all who feel addicted to a food.
very much agreed0 -
What's really unhelpful is feeding someone's misguided beliefs about a food in order to protect his feels.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.
Humor about someone else's problem is certainly close to mocking. And is likely to be found unhelpful by all who feel addicted to a food.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »thorsmom01 wrote: »Love this post ! It should be a sticky !
Geez, I sure hope MFP wouldn't make such a mocking post a sticky.
I injected humor into my writing because that is my style and what I think of as entertaining on what can otherwise be a rather dry subject (neurobiology) for most people. I don't consider disagreeing with people the same as mocking. I was pretty clear in the outset of the writing, none of this is to say foods can't be a problem for people, nor that they can need help, I just find it unhelpful to call a person an addict and consider it akin to being on cocaine.
Humor about someone else's problem is certainly close to mocking. And is likely to be found unhelpful by all who feel addicted to a food.
as a reformed addict, I can say that humor went a long way in getting me to where I am...0
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