New York Times - "Americans are finally eating less"
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Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks.
I'm curious to hear how that works out. I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
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Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.0 -
Cherimoose wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.
And then try cooking in between your FT job and the hustle and bustle of life for most people on food stamps (working parents). Many people from all socio-economic status' don't know, don't care, or don't have the time to cook. There isn't enough resources to help people with time management and nutrition.
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Or maybe their life sucks so much they feel entitled to a little happiness through cake and coke.0
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Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks.
I'm curious to hear how that works out. I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
That would require there be such thing as healthy food.0 -
I must live in the only area where the farmers market is actually cheaper than the grocery store.
Not by much, but still cheaper.
in my neck of the woods, farmer's markets are basically a trendy Saturday/Sunday thing to do for yuppies with money and trustafarians. I go occasionally, but generally speaking I can get far better deals at my grocery store...and way better deals at Costco which is where most of my produce comes from. I eat a lot of produce; I could probably afford to shop at farmer's markets, but I choose to spend my money elsewhere.
I do live in a semi-rural area just outside of the city and there are a couple of actual farms near by and they do open up shop usually from August - the end of October and you can get well priced and good produce there...but it's limited to those handful of months and is cash only.0 -
Cherimoose wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.
Yes, I did an experiment for six months and found that by cooking from scratch and buying beans and grains in bulk, I could eat for $200 per month, including having meat and dairy from animals that were humanely raised and buying certain produce organic. Of course, I'd been cooking from scratch for most of my life, as did my mother when I was a kid, so I didn't have to learn any new techniques. (I didn't buy fast food, convenience food, soda or juice.)
@shell1005 do you work with your clients on getting the most food for their $?0 -
Cherimoose wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.
when I was in school getting my degree I qualified and was on food stamps as my income was less than $800/month. that's exactly what i did...i pretty much lived off of beans, rice, cabbage, chicken (or whatever meat was on sale), ground beef, canned tomato products and eggs. i could also usually get broccoli pretty cheap...and for fruit i stuck with mostly apples as they tended to be the cheapest.
i actually learned to could quite a variety given my limited ingredients.0 -
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Cherimoose wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.
But they require cookware and a functional cooktop & refrigerator. Poor people move frequently(1), chasing first month free deals or fleeing eviction. Frequent movers often lack cookware. And the cheapest apt one can find may not have the greatest appliances. Agreed that DFW has grocery competition in affluent areas, but south Oak Cliff and Pleasant Grove are deserts (2).
(1)https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/mobility_of_the_population/cb10-67.html
"Generally, people with incomes below the poverty line were more likely to move than those just above the poverty line. Last year, 23.6 percent of people with incomes below 100 percent of the poverty line moved within the last year as compared with 17.5 percent of people with incomes between 100 and 149 percent of the poverty line." US average for the same period was 12.5%.
(2)http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/south-dallas/headlines/20110827-lack-of-grocery-stores-creates-unhealthy-food-desert-in-southern-dallas.ece0 -
Here in the Madison, Wisconsin area there is a particularly troublesome area that fits the classic definition of a "food desert". There have been multiple grocery stores opened and closed in this area in the last several years. They can't make a go of it. Sales are low and pilferage is high. Various folks have come up with ideas to help bring food into the area such as a mobile food pantry and even a mobile green market.
But there's no easy answer. You can't force grocery stores to open and stay in business. You can offer incentives and you can offer charity but those only go so far.0 -
"According to the federal government, a 'food desert' is an area where full-service grocery stores are more than a mile away."TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Then I live in a food desert. There are three grocery stores 1.25 -1.50 miles away, but nothing within a mile. That's a pretty restrictive definition, especially when we're talking about suburbs and not city centers.0 -
Then you live in a food desert. The difference is you probably have transportation that makes 1.25-1.50 simple. Deserts are easier to travel when you have a camel, but they don't stop being deserts.DeguelloTex wrote: »
"According to the federal government, a 'food desert' is an area where full-service grocery stores are more than a mile away."TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Then I live in a food desert. There are three grocery stores 1.25 -1.50 miles away, but nothing within a mile. That's a pretty restrictive definition, especially when we're talking about suburbs and not city centers.0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Thanks @Caitwn, I was hoping you'd chime in about your job.
I like to volunteer. My parents have always been concerned with social justice. The eulogy at my father's funeral included a Cesar Chavez anecdote. One way my church (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) gets involved with social justice is by various events to feed people in need. So I make sandwiches for the homeless once per month, contribute to the monthly food drive collection, participate in Stop Hunger Now events, give at food drives at the supermarket, etc.
I'm an enthusiastic gardener and give excess seeds, plants, and food away on freecycle, some of which goes to a community garden, and some to single parents.
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My point is that a full-service grocery store within one mile is such a restrictive definition as to do not much more than define a problem into existence. Case in point: if I live in a food desert, the definition is meaningless: "Oh. So this is a food desert. What's all fuss about?"
Then you live in a food desert. The difference is you probably have transportation that makes 1.25-1.50 simple. Deserts are easier to travel when you have a camel, but they don't stop being deserts.DeguelloTex wrote: »
"According to the federal government, a 'food desert' is an area where full-service grocery stores are more than a mile away."TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Then I live in a food desert. There are three grocery stores 1.25 -1.50 miles away, but nothing within a mile. That's a pretty restrictive definition, especially when we're talking about suburbs and not city centers.
We walk to any of the three grocery stores at some point almost every week. Hell, if the federal government took into account how far my actual preferred grocery store is, I live in a food Tattoine.
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TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
One of my students in the spring semester related a story similar to this. Her husband was dying of cancer, but was one of the patients who didn't look like anything was wrong with him until the end was nigh. Due to no health insurance, they had to get rid of all of their assets in order to qualify for Medicaid - we're in California so many people fall through the cracks created by programs based around the federal poverty line. They also qualified for SNAP.
So, they went to Food 4 Less, bought the most food they had had in months, and threw in some steak because they could finally afford it. Some woman followed them to their car and went off about how they were abusing the system and how dare they buy steak because that's a luxury item that the likes of them shouldn't get since they're taking money away from hard working people.
Her husband was so ashamed that they never used them again.
Punch line: You have no idea what's happening in other people's lives. And, yes, I do realize this story sounds like one of those scammy emails.
OT: I do wonder how much of this has to do with the presence of some education as to calories and nutrition starting to pop back up in schools. Hopefully, a lot.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »It's definitely not the case around here, but the grocery market in Fort Worth and Dallas seems especially competitive for some reason.
There are 15 or so Walmarts alone in Fort Worth and it looks like no more than 3 or 4 miles between them as the crow flies, if Google Maps can be believed. There are three around what's generally seen as the impoverished part of town.
That doesn't mean it isn't an issue in other places, though.
I am sure it does depend on the region. I have noticed it in every community I've lived in which has ranged from Vermont to Indiana to New York and now Boston. Of course as a social worker working with impoverished people, I am sure I am also more hyper sensitive to it than others.
Another interesting thing that tends to happen in areas of poverty even if they do have access to grocery stores, their prices tend to be higher. We have a Stop and Shop here in the really poor area of town and another one in the more well to do area of town. The prices in the poor store are significantly higher for the same product. While it doesn't seem to make sense, the people in poorer areas of town usually have less access to reliable transportation and there is less competition often, so the prices reflect that. They know that the people will drive for the better prices in the wealthier areas, so they tend to get the deals. I find it infuriating.
I've seen that here in Tucson, as well. The poorer areas of town have few "big box" stores and more corner general stores (and check cashing places). Prices for gas and food are higher because the shop owners know that many of the people in that area don't own their own transportation and instead rely on the bus system or their own two feet when it's 100° and more.
In fact, there was an undeveloped and under-served area, a couple of square miles, with one border along the I-10 freeway and another border along the poorer area of town. The city decided to retract it's "no big box store" law for this one area and allow it to be developed because there were no grocery stores, no Wal-Marts, etc. within miles. So now there's a Costco and a Wal-Mart and more stores to come along with a biotechnical park owned by the University of AZ. Both stores are booming and I'm expecting anything else that goes into the area will as well.0 -
Is there a coherent "formula" for determining a food desert available online anywhere?DeguelloTex wrote: »
"According to the federal government, a 'food desert' is an area where full-service grocery stores are more than a mile away."TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Then I live in a food desert. There are three grocery stores 1.25 -1.50 miles away, but nothing within a mile. That's a pretty restrictive definition, especially when we're talking about suburbs and not city centers.
Yes, I see what you are saying based on that quote, but the problem is that the quote is what's typically reported by media - and it's not an actual explanation of how food deserts are defined and determined. That requires some mathy work involving census tract data and multiple other factors, all of which provide the actual CONTEXT for what a food desert is. Certainly folks like you and me who live in suburban areas are typically going to have full-service grocery stores more than a mile away. But most of us in that area also have cars and jobs.
Maybe if media did a better job of reporting and explaining what food deserts are, people wouldn't be so (understandably) suspicious that we're talking about some fictional construct. But I'm probably being optimistic.
A big part of the problem here, to me, is that being defined that way is very reminiscent of the government's defining "food insecurity" in such a way that if I thought, "Wow, the prime New York strip is pricey this week, let's have hamburgers instead" my family could be classified as food insecure.
There were times when I went without food and there were times when my Sunday dinner was Ramen with canned chicken instead of just Ramen, so I don't mean to minimize what it means to be lacking in cash. My point is just that when terms are defined in such a way that they look very much like defining a problem into existence, it numbs people to the serious underlying problems.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Is there a coherent "formula" for determining a food desert available online anywhere?DeguelloTex wrote: »
"According to the federal government, a 'food desert' is an area where full-service grocery stores are more than a mile away."TimothyFish wrote: »dobbywocky wrote: »If you don't have access to a quality farmer's market that actually sells organic produce (not just homemade bread and jams), then the cost if produce can be rediculous compared to a box of instant potatoes or macaroni.
That's an excuse and false, you can eat healthy on a budget even when fresh isn't readily available. Store brand frozen veggies. ..steamed. .coupons for lean meats etc. I can manage a salmon and spinach dinner for LESS per per person than what a McDonald's cost!
True. And personally when I see the organic label, I specifically search for the non-organic version because I don't want to lay that premium. My regular grocery store suits my needs just fine. The sad part is that there are indeed places that are food deserts, where a grocery store with any kind of fresh or frozen veg is actually quite far away
Yep. Impoverished neighborhoods tend to not have the same access to grocery stores that middle class ones do.
And while you can buy fresh fruits and veggies on a budget....those who have food scarcity tend go purchase foods that are overly processed because they have a longer shelf life. The idea of spending money on food that might go bad is not usually something that is worth the risk.
We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks. I work with people in poverty and I've highly encouraged my clients use the programs, etc.
Really? Perhaps it is different in Boston, but here in DFW, I haven't noticed that to be the case.
I work in public health, so often work with zip code analysis of public health issues. With regard to Dallas, in 2011 the USDA labeled over half of South Dallas (zip codes 75215 and 75210) as a food desert, based in part on being an area of "sustained chronic disinvestment". Urban areas with chronic disinvestment are contending with high poverty rates, low employment rates, low employment opportunity, low per capita income, low investment, and inadequate public transportation structure. Those factors combine to create food deserts.
Here's a map with more detail if you are interested:
dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20110818-food-deserts-in-the-dallas-area.ece
In terms of others' comments, it is certainly easy to focus on judging the content of grocery carts without any real thought to what might be going on for that family at that particular time. All I know is that some of my own clients are nearly phobic about going to the grocery store because they're terrified of being confronted by some self-righteous shopper over the fact that they're buying their kid some cookies.
Those who are so concerned about what poor people are buying at the store might consider putting in some volunteer time in these communities to offer cooking classes or assist in developing community gardens.
Finally, for any of you with clients or friends who are struggling with how to eat well on a low income, look up recipes from the SNAP challenge last year - quite a few food bloggers took part, and developed some good recipes that can fit within very low budgets.
Then I live in a food desert. There are three grocery stores 1.25 -1.50 miles away, but nothing within a mile. That's a pretty restrictive definition, especially when we're talking about suburbs and not city centers.
Yes, I see what you are saying based on that quote, but the problem is that the quote is what's typically reported by media - and it's not an actual explanation of how food deserts are defined and determined. That requires some mathy work involving census tract data and multiple other factors, all of which provide the actual CONTEXT for what a food desert is. Certainly folks like you and me who live in suburban areas are typically going to have full-service grocery stores more than a mile away. But most of us in that area also have cars and jobs.
Maybe if media did a better job of reporting and explaining what food deserts are, people wouldn't be so (understandably) suspicious that we're talking about some fictional construct. But I'm probably being optimistic.
A big part of the problem here, to me, is that being defined that way is very reminiscent of the government's defining "food insecurity" in such a way that if I thought, "Wow, the prime New York strip is pricey this week, let's have hamburgers instead" my family could be classified as food insecure.
There were times when I went without food and there were times when my Sunday dinner was Ramen with canned chicken instead of just Ramen, so I don't mean to minimize what it means to be lacking in cash. My point is just that when terms are defined in such a way that they look very much like defining a problem into existence, it numbs people to the serious underlying problems.
I find this interesting, because I used census information substantially in connection with a work project I was involved in, and am now fascinated by anything census related.
Here is the best definition I can find: http://apps.ams.usda.gov/fooddeserts/fooddeserts.aspxCensus tracts qualify as food deserts if they meet low-income and low-access thresholds:
1. They qualify as "low-income communities", based on having: a) a poverty rate of 20 percent or greater, OR b) a median family income at or below 80 percent of the area median family income; AND
2. They qualify as "low-access communities", based on the determination that at least 500 persons and/or at least 33% of the census tract's population live more than one mile from a supermarket or large grocery store (10 miles, in the case of non-metropolitan census tracts).
Personally, I tend to agree that's not specific enough--you'd want more information, like public transportation that is relevant, and possibly trip patterns in general.
However, I do know there are HUGE differences between neighborhoods in Chicago (for complicated as well as pretty obvious reasons, which is why it's not an easy problem to solve).
Where I live (in the city but not downtown), there's a mainstream supermarket .5 miles away, 2 WFs about 1 mile away each, a TJ's about a mile away, a meat market about a mile away, not to mention various other options I never even think of. More often than not I go to one of the stores about a mile away, but that doesn't make my situation analogous to what they are talking about with a food desert (even if the count is overrepresented).
Someone said "don't people go downtown," but until somewhat recently groceries weren't in our downtown at all (because people work there more than live there) and even now they aren't super convenient if you are just in the Loop proper.
There are probably buses that serve the neighborhoods, of course.
The food desert neighborhoods here also tend not to be the safest neighborhoods.
What I find more puzzling about food stamps--I'm not judging, I've just been curious about it--is that I commonly see people (who probably don't live in the neighborhood) using them at the CVS or Walgreens which has really no great food selections and tends to cost more than the Jewel or the like (local supermarket that happens to be really close to the stores I'm talking about). I always wonder why.0 -
Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »We have some really interesting programs here (Boston) to encourage people to get more fresh fruit and veggies. We have a program where your food stamp $ is doubled at farmers markets. We also have a 2 dollar program where if you bring a grocery bag, you can fill it to the rim with veggies for 2 bucks.
I'm curious to hear how that works out. I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
I was on food stamps two years ago while unemployed (I had a health condition that lead to me being terminated and was focused on getting that under control prior to applying for a new job). In all, I only received 7 months worth of "help" and the amount I received monthly was 60 dollars (single person with weekly unemployeement checks). I am allergic to wheat, barley and oats, so the typical staple foods people tend to buy, I do not. Between the unemployeement money that didn't go towards basic living and the food stamps, I actually ate extremely well. Since I had the time, I clipped coupons for my local grocer every week to get the best deals. I know most people don't have time to dedicate to that. I bought mostly fresh fruits and veggies and took advantage of the monthly farmers market (where your food stamps were worth more than if you were shopping at a grocer).
The moral of my story? There is no reason that one has to buy high caloric, unfilling food because they are on food stamps. If I bought all chips and other high caloric items, I would have been hungry every day and ran out of money for food very quickly. By choosing more filling items, I was able to remain in my budget and not go hungry.
As A side note, I live in Nyc. So many corner stores accept ebt (food stamps). All they sell is candy, "junk" food (I hate that term but can't thing of how better to describe it), and other stuff like that. To be honest, and I know this is going to cause a tornado of hate towards me, those types of places should not be allowed to accept ebt. Food stamps are supposed to be a supplement to your resources to feed yourself and your family so that you do not starve, not a way for you to buy more caloric dense, less nutrient dense food. I'm not saying those items should never be bought, but if you are spending all of your ebt allowance at a corner store, buying chips, soda, and candy, then complaining you are hungry and need more allowance (many around here do), the system is broken.0 -
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Cherimoose wrote: »Lourdesong wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »
It's amazing how confirmation bias lets you notice when poor people have food that you can use to judge them for having, isn't it?Cherimoose wrote: »I've watched obese people on food stamps at my supermarket and they tend to choose garbage like soda and cake, even though healthier options are a few steps away and similarly priced. Seems like there's a motivational aspect to the obesity epidemic.
Not sure i follow what you're saying. Should i pretend that they're choosing healthy food?
I think if I was on food stamps, I would prioritize getting the most calories for money. I wouldn't waste my time or stamps on low-cal highly perishable fare like produce.
Not sure i'd get soda and cake, like the people i mentioned were buying. I'd get dried beans & brown rice, peanuts & whole chicken, and carrots, kale, & cabbage (keep for weeks). They're all easily affordable on a foodstamp budget.
My family was on food assistance for a few years when I was younger. My dad was working two jobs, my mom was working and finishing nursing school, I was working as a waitress, going to college, and babysitting, my younger sister was working as a carhop, finishing high school, and babysitting, the kids that couldn't work yet were in school and trying to help with the really little kids (yes, I have a lot of siblings). It could be a struggle to find the time to prepare meals that took longer. I realize this sounds like an excuse -- but it takes time to break down a whole chicken. It takes time to prepare dried beans and brown rice. They're things I eat regularly now (well, not the chicken -- I'm vegan now), but when I was in college and I got home from work and I had to bathe my little sister and write a research paper and try to get in bed to get a few hours of sleep before class in the morning . . . sometimes it was easier to grab some ramen.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find more puzzling about food stamps--I'm not judging, I've just been curious about it--is that I commonly see people (who probably don't live in the neighborhood) using them at the CVS or Walgreens which has really no great food selections and tends to cost more than the Jewel or the like (local supermarket that happens to be really close to the stores I'm talking about). I always wonder why.
Not everyone who receives food stamps needs them. They're frequently sold and/or used as discretionary income -- someone else is supporting them.
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AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find more puzzling about food stamps--I'm not judging, I've just been curious about it--is that I commonly see people (who probably don't live in the neighborhood) using them at the CVS or Walgreens which has really no great food selections and tends to cost more than the Jewel or the like (local supermarket that happens to be really close to the stores I'm talking about). I always wonder why.
Not everyone who receives food stamps needs them. They're frequently sold and/or used as discretionary income -- someone else is supporting them.
Citation needed. "Frequently sold" do you have statistics for that?0 -
ogmomma2012 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »What I find more puzzling about food stamps--I'm not judging, I've just been curious about it--is that I commonly see people (who probably don't live in the neighborhood) using them at the CVS or Walgreens which has really no great food selections and tends to cost more than the Jewel or the like (local supermarket that happens to be really close to the stores I'm talking about). I always wonder why.
Not everyone who receives food stamps needs them. They're frequently sold and/or used as discretionary income -- someone else is supporting them.
Citation needed. "Frequently sold" do you have statistics for that?
No, that's from life experience.
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