Opinions on HIGH fat, MODERATE protein, LOW carb diet!
Replies
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In to read for later. Thanks for posting!0
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I've never heard of this approach... very interesting! Will definitely check it out later0
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I'm at something like 60/30/10 f/p/c (I haven't tracked in a while), and have done very well by it. I think I'm also starting to find that lower carbs has been able to let me lose weight, where I couldn't before, for a variety of reasons.
I found this paper, which is an interesting (and short) read (it's a little older; there's quite a bit of research that has been done more recently, but even 10 years ago, such diets showed promise):
http://ccjm.org/content/69/11/849.full.pdf0 -
I try and keep my carbs under 100g a day. I eat full fats (avacado, no "light/fat free" anything, olive oil). I eat as much protein as my mouth can handle, but i still watch my portion. I would love to eat 6 pieces of bacon, but i restrict myself to 2. I find my calorie count is really low, so when I restrict my carbs I have a hard time reaching my calorie count. I counteract this by having some whey protein powder and water. No fruit, tons and tons of veggies (even then, watch the carbs in corn and other veggies). Don't forget your multi-vitamin. P.S. I don't eat dairy at all. I have a small portion of soy cheese in my eggs in the morning and that's about it.0
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bump0
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You mean the low carb group wasn't actually consuming low carbs and the low fat group wasn't actually consuming low fat....from memory, it's been a few years since I read that study. Basically a very poor controlled study.
Edit because I misread.
The first article is 10 years old, and lower fat than this post is talking about. Even so (from the abstract, haven't read the whole article yetBased on these data, a very low carbohydrate diet is more effective than a low fat diet for short-term weight loss and, over 6 months
Perhaps the 44% more protein they were consuming may have had something to do with that? And even though consuming more protein, they still lost more lbm.Stanford University School Of Medicine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo&feature=youtu.be&t=39m27s
Lol the A to Z study, when you read the full study, notice anything odd?0 -
Wow, 1971 ! Interesting......
"Weight loss, fat loss, and percent weight
loss as fat appeared to be inversely related to
the level of carbohydrate in the isocaloric, isoprotein diets."
so low carb means more weight loss, more fat loss and a bigger % of weight loss as fat. Cool.
Table 7 shows low carb group C retaining nitrogen or in balance after week 2.
These small studies are nice where they report individual data.0 -
The thing is, I read that protein can also be turned into glucose, and fat can't, so by upping the fat and lowering protein, your body would more efficiently use your body fat for fuel
Sorry but this is Broscience... the human body doesn't function this way and you can't force it to change how it works.
Technically speaking, your body doesn't "burn" protein, glucose, OR fat as energy. The energy your cells actually use comes from breaking the chemical bonds of a molecule called ATP (Adenosine triphosphate), which happens during something known as the "Krebs cycle" that takes place at the cellular level, in the mitochondria of your cells. Your body can use all 3 dietary macronutrients, fat, protein, and carbohyrdates, to generate ATP molecules, so it really doesn't make much practical sense to think in terms of whether your body turns protein into glucose, or into fat, etc.
Carbs
This is the fastest, most metabolically efficient source of glycogen replacement for your body. However it is also the fastest to be stored as fat if ingested in excess. Depending on your fitness goals the macro % will vary.
Protein
Protein is the human body's second choice for glycogen replenishment. Why? Because it takes less energy to process protein than fat (it takes 4 cals of energy to process 1g of protein). This is why doing just pure cardio actually burns muscle tissue. Why do you think marathoners are usually so thin? It's more efficient for the body to convert muscle proteins into ATP than fat stores (and the body is all about efficiency).
Protein has a single purpose in your body... to build and repair damaged muscle. This is why bodybuilders and power-lifters consume so much protein. They are constantly micro-tearing the muscle fibers and the protein they consume is used to repair and grow new muscle fibers. Again, depending on your fitness goals your macro % will vary, but a standard rule of thumb is 1g per 1 pound of lean body weight. This is the problem most fall into... they forget it's LEAN body weight not total body weight.
Fat
Fat has gotten a bad rap. Sad too because fat is essential for healthy neurological function. There's a reason you get into a 'fog' when on a low fat diet. When you restrict the body's intake of healthy fats, your brain cannot function at it's optimal level. This is where the bodybuilding stereotype of 'meathead' comes from. Bodybuilders are on a very low fat diet when training for a show and as they restrict their fat intake more and more they tend to 'get stupid'... it's just a physiological fact and it will happen to anyone, not just the lunks. On the flip side... ever hear the saying "fish is brain food"? Well it's true. Fish/seafood are filled with Omega 3/6/9 fats. Arguably the best fats to consume. Since fats are essential for neurological efficiency the more fish you eat the better for your brain. Does it make you 'smarter'? Well, no. But it does allow your brain to function at its peak levels. The downside to fat is that it is the least efficient source of glycogen replenishment and therefore will always be the body's last choice for energy. It takes 9 calories to burn 1g of body fat versus the 4 calories for 1g of protein. Your macro % will vary but should never go above 30%.
Now all this being said, this is why it is crucial to have some sort of strength training in your workout regimen. If you are using your muscle groups to perform 'work' your body will know this and says to itself, "Hey, this guy/girl is asking us to perform these lifting tasks daily. That's cool, but now he/she wants us to go for a long run. Okay, well since we need all the muscle we can get for the work we are doing every day we can't burn the muscle for energy so let's use the carbs. Oh crap, no carbs available? Ok then, guess we have to use the fat stores, ugh." I know it sounds silly, but that's how it works for most people. It's also why it takes forever to lose actual body fat.
So what's the best 'diet' for you? As others will tell you, it completely depends on your goals and your fitness regimen. Speaking for myself... I do CrossFit 5 days/week combined with Strength Training 3 days/week. I'm also currently switching to a Paleo diet and I'm a Type 2 Diabetic. The recommended macros for the average CrossFitter is 40C/30P/30F. This is fine for most people but with MY goals and my Diabetes I must keep my carbs at a lower level to avoid increased blood glucose levels. I also want to promote fat loss but maintain/build lean muscle. So I have dialed my macros to 35C/45P/20F, but I also keep my carbs under 100g/day as my cap. I also adjust them based on my activity level on the weekends. Since I use my weekends as my rest days I reduce my caloric intake slightly and eat less protein, but slightly more carbs and fats to help replenish. Play around with your percentages until you find where you feel energized, alert, and sharp... and you are still accomplishing your fitness goals.
Sorry this was so long, but I really hate broscience and don't want to see anyone get derailed.0 -
The thing is, I read that protein can also be turned into glucose, and fat can't, so by upping the fat and lowering protein, your body would more efficiently use your body fat for fuel
Sorry but this is Broscience... the human body doesn't function this way and you can't force it to change how it works.
Technically speaking, your body doesn't "burn" protein, glucose, OR fat as energy. The energy your cells actually use comes from breaking the chemical bonds of a molecule called ATP (Adenosine triphosphate), which happens during something known as the "Krebs cycle" that takes place at the cellular level, in the mitochondria of your cells. Your body can use all 3 dietary macronutrients, fat, protein, and carbohyrdates, to generate ATP molecules, so it really doesn't make much practical sense to think in terms of whether your body turns protein into glucose, or into fat, etc.
Carbs
This is the fastest, most metabolically efficient source of glycogen replacement for your body. However it is also the fastest to be stored as fat if ingested in excess. Depending on your fitness goals the macro % will vary.
Protein
Protein is the human body's second choice for glycogen replenishment. Why? Because it takes less energy to process protein than fat (it takes 4 cals of energy to process 1g of protein). This is why doing just pure cardio actually burns muscle tissue. Why do you think marathoners are usually so thin? It's more efficient for the body to convert muscle proteins into ATP than fat stores (and the body is all about efficiency).
Protein has a single purpose in your body... to build and repair damaged muscle. This is why bodybuilders and power-lifters consume so much protein. They are constantly micro-tearing the muscle fibers and the protein they consume is used to repair and grow new muscle fibers. Again, depending on your fitness goals your macro % will vary, but a standard rule of thumb is 1g per 1 pound of lean body weight. This is the problem most fall into... they forget it's LEAN body weight not total body weight.
Fat
Fat has gotten a bad rap. Sad too because fat is essential for healthy neurological function. There's a reason you get into a 'fog' when on a low fat diet. When you restrict the body's intake of healthy fats, your brain cannot function at it's optimal level. This is where the bodybuilding stereotype of 'meathead' comes from. Bodybuilders are on a very low fat diet when training for a show and as they restrict their fat intake more and more they tend to 'get stupid'... it's just a physiological fact and it will happen to anyone, not just the lunks. On the flip side... ever hear the saying "fish is brain food"? Well it's true. Fish/seafood are filled with Omega 3/6/9 fats. Arguably the best fats to consume. Since fats are essential for neurological efficiency the more fish you eat the better for your brain. Does it make you 'smarter'? Well, no. But it does allow your brain to function at its peak levels. The downside to fat is that it is the least efficient source of glycogen replenishment and therefore will always be the body's last choice for energy. It takes 9 calories to burn 1g of body fat versus the 4 calories for 1g of protein. Your macro % will vary but should never go above 30%.
Now all this being said, this is why it is crucial to have some sort of strength training in your workout regimen. If you are using your muscle groups to perform 'work' your body will know this and says to itself, "Hey, this guy/girl is asking us to perform these lifting tasks daily. That's cool, but now he/she wants us to go for a long run. Okay, well since we need all the muscle we can get for the work we are doing every day we can't burn the muscle for energy so let's use the carbs. Oh crap, no carbs available? Ok then, guess we have to use the fat stores, ugh." I know it sounds silly, but that's how it works for most people. It's also why it takes forever to lose actual body fat.
So what's the best 'diet' for you? As others will tell you, it completely depends on your goals and your fitness regimen. Speaking for myself... I do CrossFit 5 days/week combined with Strength Training 3 days/week. I'm also currently switching to a Paleo diet and I'm a Type 2 Diabetic. The recommended macros for the average CrossFitter is 40C/30P/30F. This is fine for most people but with MY goals and my Diabetes I must keep my carbs at a lower level to avoid increased blood glucose levels. I also want to promote fat loss but maintain/build lean muscle. So I have dialed my macros to 35C/45P/20F, but I also keep my carbs under 100g/day as my cap. I also adjust them based on my activity level on the weekends. Since I use my weekends as my rest days I reduce my caloric intake slightly and eat less protein, but slightly more carbs and fats to help replenish. Play around with your percentages until you find where you feel energized, alert, and sharp... and you are still accomplishing your fitness goals.
Sorry this was so long, but I really hate broscience and don't want to see anyone get derailed.
This is awesome, though I'm curious - where do you get the "you should never go over 30% fat" part?0 -
considering that I get pretty much all my carbs from vegetables and fruit that are jam packed with minerals (on weekdays, weekends are different plan) I personally don't see Atkins/high fat as good in the long term. Your body doesn't simply run on calories, we all wish it was just in vs out but it isn't. You need potassium, magnesium etc etc to support normal bodily functions so severely cutting down on food groups isn't safe.
This is my opinion and I feel that of many other MFPers who have done their research.... I faint if I am under 60g carbs for a day, not for me!0 -
Bump, very interesting! Thx0
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Without the fruit (just berries) I get my requirements from vegetables too while eating low carb. A pound of vegetables is less than 20g of carbohydrates, there isn't a conflict between eating low carb and eating vegetables.considering that I get pretty much all my carbs from vegetables and fruit that are jam packed with minerals (on weekdays, weekends are different plan) I personally don't see Atkins/high fat as good in the long term.0 -
Sorry this was so long, but I really hate broscience and don't want to see anyone get derailed.
You didn't say what happens to the protein we eat that we don't need to use as protein?
The ketogenic diet for epileptics limits protein in order to maximise ketone production, I thought this was because excess protein spilled into glucose and reduced ketone production from fats.0 -
Sorry this was so long, but I really hate broscience and don't want to see anyone get derailed.
You didn't say what happens to the protein we eat that we don't need to use as protein?
The ketogenic diet for epileptics limits protein in order to maximise ketone production, I thought this was because excess protein spilled into glucose and reduced ketone production from fats.
Yeah thats pretty much what I thought. My mind is exploding lol0 -
BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.0
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Bump. I was starting my low carb thing today..after reading this post and all the replies..I feel that a high fat..moderate protein..low carb will definitely work in my favor. I have pcos too so I'm really feeling positive about this.0
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BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.
It's called low carb flu. It pretty normal, especially if you are cutting out sugar/gluten, you body will go through withdrawals...at least mine did!0 -
BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.
It's called low carb flu. It pretty normal, especially if you are cutting out sugar/gluten, you body will go through withdrawals...at least mine did!
If it's your first time trying to do keto then grandually decrease your carbs.
Start at 100 for one week, then go down 25 the next. Until you get to 50g of carbs or less.
Going from 250+ carbs down to 30g over night will be one hell of an induction. I learned that the hard way... but once you go through the induction once it will not be as hard the next time if add a refeed day.0 -
BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.
It's called low carb flu. It pretty normal, especially if you are cutting out sugar/gluten, you body will go through withdrawals...at least mine did!
If it's your first time trying to do keto then grandually decrease your carbs.
Start at 100 for one week, then go down 25 the next. Until you get to 50g of carbs or less.
Going from 250+ carbs down to 30g over night will be one hell of an induction. I learned that the hard way... but once you go through the induction once it will not be as hard the next time if add a refeed day.
I went cold turkey this time and had zero issues, not even a headache, but I attribute that to quitting gluten and sugar months before hand...and then I had one heck of a time!!! omg. not pretty!!!!0 -
BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.
I had the carb flu as well...once your body adjusts you'll be fine. But it does suck going through this phase. Once you're body adjusts, you'll over heat and sweat bombs if you carb load :ohwell:0 -
BTW, I've been doing low carb since I started this thread. And by low carb I mean, I am getting it all from green veg like spinach, rocket leaves, green beans... and I am not feeling 100%. I have been sweating a lot, I feel like I have the flu... on the other hand I am not bloated constantly as it was usual. My belly is flat flat flat. But I feel constantly hot inside, its weird. I will wait to see if this is something else or maybe its because of the diet.
I went through the exact same thing... I suffered the DT's for 9 days. I had to quit the grains for health reasons beyond weight loss so I pushed through, and feel great now. I was hurting bad though... I'm no expert in the matter, but there must be something in the wheat that grabs you like drugs.0 -
Bump for later - good information!0
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Low carb flu puts me to sleep, by that I mean I go through a really exhausted phase and sleep a lot. (But, hey, adequate sleep is good for weight loss). After this transition, I tend to have more energy than I used to.
But the "carb flu" phase IS rough. It takes a week or two for your body to adjust.
(And agree about there being no need to limit most veggies. You can still eat loads of vegetables and stay relatively low carb).0 -
Before anyone starts a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet I suggest you do some research first and not just jump in...
It's a complete life style change. 3 phases to know: induction, maintaining, and refeeds...0 -
I m having great success with this kind of diet, not super low carb.
I usually eat around 100g of carbs try to get around 120g of protein and fill the rest in with fat.
This usually leads to a 20:30:50 macro distribution respectively and I'm losing weight quite easily and am very happy on it.0 -
You mean the low carb group wasn't actually consuming low carbs and the low fat group wasn't actually consuming low fat....from memory, it's been a few years since I read that study. Basically a very poor controlled study.
Edit because I misread.
The first article is 10 years old, and lower fat than this post is talking about. Even so (from the abstract, haven't read the whole article yetBased on these data, a very low carbohydrate diet is more effective than a low fat diet for short-term weight loss and, over 6 months
Perhaps the 44% more protein they were consuming may have had something to do with that? And even though consuming more protein, they still lost more lbm.Stanford University School Of Medicine:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo&feature=youtu.be&t=39m27s
Lol the A to Z study, when you read the full study, notice anything odd?
neanderthin, go to skepdic.com. From Abracadabra to Zombies? lol0 -
The truth is, the scientists who study these things often disagree. (Some more than others, some less. And on some rare occasions a couple even change their minds about stuff. ) If there were universal consensus, there wouldn't be more studies, or studies wouldn't be reviewed by others, or there wouldn't be differing interpretations, or there wouldn't be evidence of confirmation bias (on all sides). We'd also probably have a handle on 1st world countries obesity rates (or at least have some better idea of how to address/solve it. If they knew how, why wouldn't they? They would if they could.)
In the end, there's no magic bullet either to solve the problem or to be the perfect rejoider to end all subsequent debate. (And probably not one answer that even works for all people all of the time. If there were, problems would be a heck of a lot more rare than they are).
There's going to be a certain degree of uncertainty and disagreement that we just have to live with.
Certainly random people on an internet message board aren't going settle this. (Internet message boards can't agree on squat. They'll argue to the death over anything from diets to the meaning of the color schemes of who wore what on last night's Mad Men {and I am totally NOT making that last one up. I can provide links to that as well}).
All that's going to happen on an internet posting board are appeals to authority in terms of citing various studies and then yet more disagreement because who accepts appeals to authority that they disagree with? (There's always confirmation bias going on, large scale and small to boot). Hence, constant debates and the citing studies "tennis" complete with links and further disagreement, because of countervailing calls to different links, authorities, and studies. Everyone has something to back them up. Most people arrived at beliefs somehow.
In the end all you can do is read a bunch of things. (Not all of which will agree).
The more (and the greater the variety) the better. (Don't just read things that agree with you or read things just to disagree with them. Read a gamut of things for a gamut of information.).
Try a few things.
It's at least good to be informed of the controversies and the differences involved.
In the end people just have to make some choices for themselves. (And realize that other people will make choices for themselves as well).
*BTW - in the Stanford University Medical School lecture Youtube link...
The lecturer references 2 different studies -- one done by the PhD giving the lecture (who is a vegetarian), and another -- separate--study that had been done earlier (acknowledged to have had few subjects and fewer controls, but which had been done over a longer period of time), and the subsequent idea for a future study that he was applying for grants to study.
The results of his analysis of the two studies that the lecture covers ultimately came down to:
-- All of the diets worked... to a similar degree.
-- All the diets also had significant recitivism.
-- After six months, most of the people on low fat had upped their fat consumption and most people on low carb had upped their carb consumption.
The only notable satistical difference that was found was, when delving deeper into the data, those with insulin resistance (approximately 1/3) did marginally better on low carb than low fat. Those who were athletic did marginally better on a low fat than low carb (And the Phd giving the lecture admits that, being a vegetarian, he hadn't wanted to reach that (marginally positive) conclusion about low carb, but had anyway).0 -
Before anyone starts a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet I suggest you do some research first and not just jump in...
It's a complete life style change. 3 phases to know: induction, maintaining, and refeeds...
Is there a source you would recommend with reliable information?0 -
It`s a great plan. Just be carefull to avoid trans fats.0
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I've been eating LCHF for about a year now. I highly recommend it for anyone who's insulin resistant, is always hungry, eats uncontrollably or has metabolic syndrome -- those are the people that seem to respond best eating a low carb diet. I just jumped right in by eating real food (not low carb diet products) and increasing my salt intake when I felt weak or dizzy in the beginning.
It's probably been mentioned already but this is the guide I used. It's completely free and easy to follow.
LCHF for Beginners
http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf0
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