clean eating
Replies
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I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.0 -
I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »For some people it is not unrealistic nor is it hard. If it is unrealistic and/or hard for you...then don't attempt it. Just don't judge others on what you can or can not do.
Oddly enough in my experience it is the opposite. The people who give their diets names like clean, paleo, south beach etc are the ones who have the issue. They can not control themselves around what you would call "dirty" foods so they choose diets that eliminates them altogether. That way, the thinking is taken out of the equation. The food is on the bad list so I don't eat it. If that is what you require to succeed then great! You have found what works for you. But make no mistake, it's not the food that is the problem, it is your inability to just have a serving, and go on with your life...
I don't think I've ever seen anyone who supports the concept of "clean" eating identify foods they don't eat as "dirty." I certainly don't. I call them "foods I avoid."
Like artificial colors. I don't buy foods with artificial colors, but when faced with a cake with artificial colors at a birthday party, I can certainly have one serving and get on with my life.
I don't notice you using the term "clean eating" and wouldn't have classified you as a "clean eater."
However, if some foods are "clean" that means that some are "unclean" or "not clean." There's simply no way around it. It's a usage chosen to be insulting, period.
Not clean is not the same as dirty.
I didn't mention "dirty." It certainly could mean that, though.Clean is just an adjective.
So is fat, pig-like, disgusting, ugly, etc. What does that have to do with anything?While there certainly are some clean eaters with an air of superiority, insult is often how you choose to infer the term.
When there are numerous ways to say what is typically meant that are both better at conveying what is actually meant -- people mean quite different things by "clean" and under some people's definitions I would be a "clean eater" and under others I would not, and same with everyone -- AND have the virtue of not being insulting of how others eat or being tainted with an inherent air of superiority, the choice to use this particular word is significant, IMO.Which is more insulting? To say "I eat clean" or to say "Do your research, there are no clean foods."?
Both are somewhat insulting.
For the record, I do not assume that people who use the term "clean" intend it as an insult. Most people don't think through their word choice that carefully. But the continued insistence on using the term after being aware of how others perceive it, and after being aware that it doesn't actually communicate well any particular way of eating (again, I fail to see how the typical "clean eater" eats much differently than I do), is what strikes me as being chosen to be insulting or to claim superiority. This has been crystalized by how often "clean eaters" have claimed that the rest of us eat mainly McD's and Twinkies.
Therefore, whereas I do not believe I am rude about it, I do think it's important to continue to explain my objection to the term and why I find it unhelpful and rather rude when the topic comes up.
I always answer whatever the question is too, especially if it's looking for food/cooking ideas or nutrition discussions, since I am quite interested in how people put together a healthy diet and try to myself.
Are you seriously suggesting that if you don't like a term others shouldn't use it, and if they do it's an obvious insult to you?
Nope. I have never suggested that others should take my advice in the words they choose. And it's not really about me (the people using the term would usually call my diet "clean") -- it's more of a general principle.
IMO, if you use a word that has no particular communication advantages and that does have negative, insulting connotations after being aware of this (i.e., not "I never thought about the derivation of X"), then I think that's relevant when considering why the person chooses to use the term.
(I don't bother commenting on the term outside of discussions of it in threads about it. If a friend says "I'm trying to eat clean" I might sigh inwardly, but I don't bother questioning it. But if you make it a topic of discussion or start with the premise that there's a "clean eating" thing that is distinguishable from how others eat, then yeah I am interested in what it's supposed to be and why the word choice, etc.)
The interest seems perfectly normal to me. Feeling insult seems odd to me. That's why I questioned it.0 -
Why would the word clean imply morality more than healthy? As I just said, disgust, both physical and moral, tend register in the brain in the same region. It isn't a coincidence people call it clean eating. It isn't far removed from the concepts that many societies have had of certain people as unclean and immoral.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
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Why would the word clean imply morality more than healthy? As I just said, disgust, both physical and moral, tend register in the brain in the same region. It isn't a coincidence people call it clean eating. It isn't far removed from the concepts that many societies have had of certain people as unclean and immoral.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
::laugh:: You are joking, right? I certainly hope no one thinks that! Back in the 70's when I first heard the term it meant 'clean' as in free of additives. Whole, natural. It had nothing to do with morals.
When someone says "I need to clean up my diet" I thought everyone knew they meant start eating more meals made from whole natural ingredients. My oh my, what has happened to the world?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Why would the word clean imply morality more than healthy? As I just said, disgust, both physical and moral, tend register in the brain in the same region. It isn't a coincidence people call it clean eating. It isn't far removed from the concepts that many societies have had of certain people as unclean and immoral.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
::laugh:: You are joking, right? I certainly hope no one thinks that! Back in the 70's when I first heard the term it meant 'clean' as in free of additives. Whole, natural. It had nothing to do with morals.
When someone says "I need to clean up my diet" I thought everyone knew they meant start eating more meals made from whole natural ingredients. My oh my, what has happened to the world?
Absolutely not a joke. I'm not saying the word choice is intentionally because the people themselves are aware of the moralizing at play - I certainly hope they're not. Yet it is about that. Are you serious in thinking there isn't a hint at all in cleaning eat about being better than other people?0 -
Unless you're literally referring to the cleanliness in how it was prepared, why are you referring to food as unclean at all? Why does the metaphor make sense, and why is it a metaphor understood across all human cultures? Eating healthy could be seen as passing judgement, saying you're eating clean is almost certainly about judgement, at some level, even if the person using the term can't admit it.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
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Healthy eating doesn't describe clean eating. There's health endorsements on all sorts of products like cheese food and cereals, and then you have dietitians recommending small cans of soda as a healthy snack -- which is the exact opposite of clean eating.
Clean eating is a more descriptive term than healthy eating, IMO. Once industry and marketers co-opt clean eating to the point it loses all meaning I'm sure the name will change again.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Okay, let me try to state my issue with the term "clean eating" as neutrally as possible and I really am interested in the responses to this from those who disagree.
Some of you claim that "clean eating" is a term you were familiar with pre MFP. I wasn't, except in the paleo context (meaning eating paleo vs. not -- eating grains would be "not clean" in that context). Upon further understanding, it seems hopelessly ambiguous -- women's magazines and bodybuilding seems to use it for eating healthy, lots of fruits and veggies, no sweets, mainly protein and veg, a variety of things like that. Other more countercultural (hippy, woo, whatever) approaches seem to use it to mean organic or no additives. Some on MFP use it to mean not as much fast food as I used to eat.
So when people say "I am looking for clean eaters," what are they looking for? Just people who like to call themselves clean eaters? Or are they looking for people who have common interests and want to talk about stuff like "ideas to use this new vegetable I haven't cooked yet"? I like to assume the latter and as such I assume I might be someone the person is interested in talking to, and I am interested in talking to people who share my interests in nutrition and cooking and seasonal produce and stuff like that.
But if what they really want are people who self-define as "clean eaters," there doesn't seem to be any actual commonality or reason to seek out those folks EXCEPT as a way of distinguishing yourself from others, and, yes, making a claim about you being "cleaner" than others.
Choosing a different term or being clearer about what is meant would be less exclusionary and allow for better discussions. Do people really think those in the "clean eating" group are the only ones with interesting things to say about cooking a chicken or the like? I suspect not.
As for weight loss, I gained weight during my most extreme "all natural, all the time" phase and I simply don't see why giving up processed foods like plain greek yogurt and store-bought smoked salmon, etc. would be helpful in losing weight whereas obviously a less processed food like, well, a whole chicken has more calories than it's processed counterpart the skinless, boneless chicken breast. (I'm always going to prefer the whole chicken, though--I just won't pretend it's for any reason but taste.)
I think threads asking for other people of the same height, gender, and amount of weight to lose are needlessly exclusionary but the OP is not making a value judgment about people who do not share those stats, except that possibly their experience will be less helpful. She'd be wrong, and sometimes I say that I have been helped by people of both genders and differing heights, but I usually just roll my eyes and let it go.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
Healthy is a neutral term that is directly related to the objective elements of the food -- specifically, the nutrition contained within. I think it's something of a misnomer to speak of healthy food vs. a healthy diet, as context matters, but if someone said "can't have that pizza because I'm trying to eat healthy" I'd understand them to be making a point about the nutritional and caloric content of the pizza and how it fit in with the rest of their diet.
Clean, however, does not really apply directly to food (other than whether it's washed or not, covered with dirt or not). It's being used in as an analogy. So the question is why that analogy? What does that choice mean?
That the most common source of "clean" and "unclean" for talk about food is religion does not seem surprising to me at all. There's a purity element here.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »Healthy eating doesn't describe clean eating. There's health endorsements on all sorts of products like cheese food and cereals, and then you have dietitians recommending small cans of soda as a healthy snack -- which is the exact opposite of clean eating.
It's the opposite of healthy eating too. That someone says something is "healthy" doesn't mean it is.
(Although there probably is a difference in that diets are healthy or not, not so much individual foods. In theory, clean should mean a focus on NO ingredients being other than "clean." However, it's obvious that's not how most use it on MFP, which is why it seems dishonest to me. People say "I eat clean" but also say "I eat fast food only once a week" or "rarely" eat convenience foods or the like.)0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Why would the word clean imply morality more than healthy? As I just said, disgust, both physical and moral, tend register in the brain in the same region. It isn't a coincidence people call it clean eating. It isn't far removed from the concepts that many societies have had of certain people as unclean and immoral.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
::laugh:: You are joking, right? I certainly hope no one thinks that! Back in the 70's when I first heard the term it meant 'clean' as in free of additives. Whole, natural. It had nothing to do with morals.
When someone says "I need to clean up my diet" I thought everyone knew they meant start eating more meals made from whole natural ingredients. My oh my, what has happened to the world?
Absolutely not a joke. I'm not saying the word choice is intentionally because the people themselves are aware of the moralizing at play - I certainly hope they're not. Yet it is about that. Are you serious in thinking there isn't a hint at all in cleaning eat about being better than other people?
Certainly some people feels superior for eating clean. As do some for eating healthy. Or for eating junk. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the posts bragging about the ice cream or pizza or candy eaten.
Diet superiority is felt by many for many reasons. I am seriously saying I don't think it's more common among those that say they eat clean than those that say they eat healthy. I think assuming that EVERYONE that uses the term is expressing insult or superiority has an air of superiority. Like maybe those that think clean eating is good are just little more stupid than those that KNOW it isn't.0 -
Unless you're literally referring to the cleanliness in how it was prepared, why are you referring to food as unclean at all? Why does the metaphor make sense, and why is it a metaphor understood across all human cultures? Eating healthy could be seen as passing judgement, saying you're eating clean is almost certainly about judgement, at some level, even if the person using the term can't admit it.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
I didn't use the term "unclean".
It was a comparison as to how someone might view eating pizza.
Personally...I have pizza every Friday. I have never passed judgment on whether it is "clean" or "healthy". The only judgment I have ever passed on that pizza is whether it tasted good or not.
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Just purchased new cookbooks. Forks Over Knives, they have an app also, it does cost, but it does help with shopping, meal planning and anything else. The food looks really yummy I can't wait to start cooking with all of this.0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »When people say they are looking for other clean eaters with which to become friends or share info I don't see why it would be viewed as an insult any more than someone else asking for friends of a certain age or sex or who share a medical condition or follow low carb or low fat or IIFYM or paleo or any other method of eating.
Well, what do you think they are looking for? People interested in encouraging them in the eating of whole foods and vegetables and who are interested in nutrition and cooking? By asking for "clean eaters" they exclude a huge number of these folks (like me).
Or people who ONLY eat "clean" foods (even though virtually no one who self-defines as a "clean eater" really fits in that category -- for example, I've seen "clean eaters" justifying the eating of processed meat of the sort even I don't eat and others, like I said, have simply cut down on their fast food consumption, etc.)? If this, why? It really seems as if they think there's something superior about self-defining as a "clean eater," which is especially interesting since it seems to be a term more used by people quite new to changing their diets.It's common for people to like to share experiences with others with whom they feel they have something in common. Just as it's common for other people to like to meet others who are very different from them.
Why would "I like to call myself a clean eater" vs. "I don't like to call myself a clean eater" be a distinguishing characteristic if you both eat pretty similarly and have similar interests in food and nutrition? It's not, unless what you really want is to be able to feel better than non "clean eaters." That's why I think it's significant that this term is used rather than a more specific one.
If someone simply wants to talk to people interested in nutrition and eating healthy, "clean eater" is more narrow than what they are looking for.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Okay, let me try to state my issue with the term "clean eating" as neutrally as possible and I really am interested in the responses to this from those who disagree.
Some of you claim that "clean eating" is a term you were familiar with pre MFP. I wasn't, except in the paleo context (meaning eating paleo vs. not -- eating grains would be "not clean" in that context). Upon further understanding, it seems hopelessly ambiguous -- women's magazines and bodybuilding seems to use it for eating healthy, lots of fruits and veggies, no sweets, mainly protein and veg, a variety of things like that. Other more countercultural (hippy, woo, whatever) approaches seem to use it to mean organic or no additives. Some on MFP use it to mean not as much fast food as I used to eat.
So when people say "I am looking for clean eaters," what are they looking for? Just people who like to call themselves clean eaters? Or are they looking for people who have common interests and want to talk about stuff like "ideas to use this new vegetable I haven't cooked yet"? I like to assume the latter and as such I assume I might be someone the person is interested in talking to, and I am interested in talking to people who share my interests in nutrition and cooking and seasonal produce and stuff like that.
But if what they really want are people who self-define as "clean eaters," there doesn't seem to be any actual commonality or reason to seek out those folks EXCEPT as a way of distinguishing yourself from others, and, yes, making a claim about you being "cleaner" than others.
Choosing a different term or being clearer about what is meant would be less exclusionary and allow for better discussions. Do people really think those in the "clean eating" group are the only ones with interesting things to say about cooking a chicken or the like? I suspect not.
As for weight loss, I gained weight during my most extreme "all natural, all the time" phase and I simply don't see why giving up processed foods like plain greek yogurt and store-bought smoked salmon, etc. would be helpful in losing weight whereas obviously a less processed food like, well, a whole chicken has more calories than it's processed counterpart the skinless, boneless chicken breast. (I'm always going to prefer the whole chicken, though--I just won't pretend it's for any reason but taste.)
I think threads asking for other people of the same height, gender, and amount of weight to lose are needlessly exclusionary but the OP is not making a value judgment about people who do not share those stats, except that possibly their experience will be less helpful. She'd be wrong, and sometimes I say that I have been helped by people of both genders and differing heights, but I usually just roll my eyes and let it go.
On that we agree.0 -
You as in any given person, and in particular the person in your example, not you personally.
Unless you're literally referring to the cleanliness in how it was prepared, why are you referring to food as unclean at all? Why does the metaphor make sense, and why is it a metaphor understood across all human cultures? Eating healthy could be seen as passing judgement, saying you're eating clean is almost certainly about judgement, at some level, even if the person using the term can't admit it.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
I didn't use the term "unclean".
It was a comparison as to how someone might view eating pizza.
Personally...I have pizza every Friday. I have never passed judgment on whether it is "clean" or "healthy". The only judgment I have ever passed on that pizza is whether it tasted good or not.
The person who doesn't want to eat pizza because they're eating clean is, by extension, implying the pizza is unclean.0 -
You as in any given person, and in particular the person in your example, not you personally.
Unless you're literally referring to the cleanliness in how it was prepared, why are you referring to food as unclean at all? Why does the metaphor make sense, and why is it a metaphor understood across all human cultures? Eating healthy could be seen as passing judgement, saying you're eating clean is almost certainly about judgement, at some level, even if the person using the term can't admit it.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I find it highly illustrative that people call it cleaning eating instead of healthy eating. It tends to show the very moralization that people are putting into food. When we talk about moral disgust, the term isn't a coincidence in feelings - the part of the brain that registers moral disgust tends to also be the area that actually registers physical disgust. So now foods are clean, or they are dirty - they are morally right, or they are degenerate.
And so, people are back to full circle - using the brain center that is evolved to think diseased food disgusting, to using that center to think about morality, to using that center to moralize and think about food.
Why do you assume moral disgust at the term "clean eating" but not "healthy eating"?
I don't really see the difference either.
If someone said...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat clean".
How is that different than someone saying...
I don't eat pizza because I "eat healthy".
Both statements could be seen as passing judgment on someone else eating pizza.
I didn't use the term "unclean".
It was a comparison as to how someone might view eating pizza.
Personally...I have pizza every Friday. I have never passed judgment on whether it is "clean" or "healthy". The only judgment I have ever passed on that pizza is whether it tasted good or not.
The person who doesn't want to eat pizza because they're eating clean is, by extension, implying the pizza is unclean.
Wash the pizza.0 -
jennmpantoja wrote: »Just purchased new cookbooks. Forks Over Knives, they have an app also, it does cost, but it does help with shopping, meal planning and anything else. The food looks really yummy I can't wait to start cooking with all of this.
Good example.
If someone said "looking for someone into 'Forks Over Knives' and that way of eating" I'd know they were looking for vegan-leaning folks or people trying to cut way down on animal-based foods.
If they asked for "clean eaters" lots of people who eat tons of meat (including those who strongly disagree with the viewpoint of the documentary and think sat fat is WAY more healthy than any and all carbs) would respond.0
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