The low calorie liquid diet (LCLD) part 2
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lemonsnowdrop wrote: »lemonsnowdrop wrote: »You didn't lose weight on 1200 calories of solids because you weren't logging accurately and instead were eating more. Drinking calories does not differ from eating them, but anyway, this isn't VLCD anyway, it's just...pointless and complicated.
If its counterweight plus or whatever the English equibalent is then its 820 calories as used in the test survey and that would qualify as vlcd.
Not pointless if it helps her lose weight sfaely.
Not complicated either.
She already said it was 1200 calories and not whatever that counterweight thing is. Yes, drinking calories instead of eating them is pointless and needlessly over complicates what should be simple: eat less calories.
Where I read about 1000. Counterweight covers a range of calories depending on what program your Dr puts you on. Clearly she has attempted to do normal dieting before but it hasnt worked for her becayse she is unable to be consistent enough. Its all very well wagging the finger, but shes not been able to do it, so this is an alternative method. Shes only done it for 8 days and is only going to be on it for a month.
Personally id rather eat my calories, but this method does keep it simple and ensures she gets adequate nutrition. In the meantime when she comes off it she will have support for returning to a normal calorie controlled diet and regular contact with the nurse and GP for up to 2 years. Not everyone can be as adept at losing weight as yourself.0 -
Supervised???
Do you get lab tests done, visit doctors etc etc?
and still no stats or names people.
She avoid those questions
The guy who has overseen the study is this man
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/medicine/staff/mikelean/#/biography
But that doesn't mean she is under treatment by him.
My best guess is..she read about all of this and is exploring and riding the wild side... on her own!
We will see.
I hope she will lose her weight in a healthy way one day and can sustain it. that she will learn that she can eat what she want as long she control the portion by weighing her food...or other wise.
And not goes for crazy liquid diets like drinking milk...(btw i gained my most weight on milk abd buttermilk, drunk almost 3/4 gallon a day lol.... blew my whole calories on it and i ate next to it healthy, food out of my own garden.)
But still too much
But well we are not OP, she will learn the hard way.
like somebody said...choose your hard
Done with it now. There is some good advice here how to do it. And we dont change her mind...because that is the big part that is denying.
Good luck OP
You wnat the name of her actual Dr and the nurse? It seems a legitimate prorgam that is offered in parts of the UK. Its as a step to help morbidly obese people lose weight to aboid the surgery option and avoid things like diabetes etc. Professor lean is the one who has overseen the sudies and written papaers on the viabiliy of the diet as a weight loss tool for the NHS. The VLCD is only part of the solution, but you would need to read up about the studies to put everything in context. Im not convinced she fully understands what the diet is. I be suprised if all she is drinking is 800 calories of milk that sounds nonsensical. I assume shes been given the added diet supplies for the cambridge diet, which will give her the nutrients she needs.
If she were trying it on her own then id be more alarmed but the things ive read from the NHS i looks common sense and provides good practical support to try and get her back to more traditional MFP ways in the long term.0 -
lemonsnowdrop wrote: »lemonsnowdrop wrote: »You didn't lose weight on 1200 calories of solids because you weren't logging accurately and instead were eating more. Drinking calories does not differ from eating them, but anyway, this isn't VLCD anyway, it's just...pointless and complicated.
If its counterweight plus or whatever the English equibalent is then its 820 calories as used in the test survey and that would qualify as vlcd.
Not pointless if it helps her lose weight sfaely.
Not complicated either.
She already said it was 1200 calories and not whatever that counterweight thing is. Yes, drinking calories instead of eating them is pointless and needlessly over complicates what should be simple: eat less calories.
Where I read about 1000. Counterweight covers a range of calories depending on what program your Dr puts you on. Clearly she has attempted to do normal dieting before but it hasnt worked for her becayse she is unable to be consistent enough. Its all very well wagging the finger, but shes not been able to do it, so this is an alternative method. Shes only done it for 8 days and is only going to be on it for a month.
Personally id rather eat my calories, but this method does keep it simple and ensures she gets adequate nutrition. In the meantime when she comes off it she will have support for returning to a normal calorie controlled diet and regular contact with the nurse and GP for up to 2 years. Not everyone can be as adept at losing weight as yourself.
And after the month? Then what? Back to over eating and all the weight comes back.
Sigh. These diets teach a person absolutely nothing about eating right. It's a quick fix wow look at the weight I've lost. Then it's "oooooh look a donut". Education not quick fixes are what is needed.
I've done VLCD's in the past. Not doctor monitored granted but even so. It taught me nothing and I regained the weight. So I cannot agree with this being a healthy way to lose weight. Doctor or nurse monitored. The OP deserves better than being set up for disappointment.0 -
The Cambridge diet is milkshakes, soups and bars. Not just milk.0
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Where I read about 1000. Counterweight covers a range of calories depending on what program your Dr puts you on. Clearly she has attempted to do normal dieting before but it hasnt worked for her becayse she is unable to be consistent enough. Its all very well wagging the finger, but shes not been able to do it, so this is an alternative method. Shes only done it for 8 days and is only going to be on it for a month.
Personally id rather eat my calories, but this method does keep it simple and ensures she gets adequate nutrition. In the meantime when she comes off it she will have support for returning to a normal calorie controlled diet and regular contact with the nurse and GP for up to 2 years. Not everyone can be as adept at losing weight as yourself.
I'm quoting you because I think your post was sensible and well thought out.
I used to work with a cardiologist years ago. Many cardiology patients are overweight/obese, often with corresponding morbidities such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, etc.
The first thing he would tell new patients to do was to lose 10% of their weight and start walking 30 minutes three times a week. Something as little as a 10% weight loss would generally result in dramatic improvement in blood pressure, blood sugar levels, and cholesterol.
Surprisingly, it was generally easier to get obese patients to go on and stick with a fad diet for a few weeks than to have them count calories and eat sensibly. I don't know why, but I saw it all the time. He usually recommended the Scarsdale Diet for women, and Atkins for men. Once the patient dropped the initial 10% (which could be done very quickly in most cases) he would then recommend them to a dietician to help them lose the rest of their weight (with varying degrees of success, lol).
Whatever nutritional deficiencies an obese patient might experience by going on a fad diet for a few weeks is generally offset by other improvements in overall health/blood work.
So, while I personally don't agree with weird/fad/VLC diets, I do know that I saw the same scenario the OP is doing (just with different diets) repeated many, many times. And given the way weight loss surgery has exploded in the past ten years, I'd rather see a young woman in her twenties drinking a crazy milk diet for a few weeks before reintroducing food and learning to eat properly than undergo irreversible surgery that has its own set of complications.
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So how much do you actually weigh?
What's the name of the diet you are on? Is it the counterweight plus program?
Theres a lot you arent telling us.
Btw im piecing together what the op is saying (which oesnt look consistent) and trying to compare it with what the NHS is saying about when and what it will offer.
I'm not convinced the OP is giving us a full explanation of what she is on or she fully understands it. If you cant rely on what shes saying and key details are being missed out then any responses are based on incomplete or inaccurate information.
16st at 5'2" is a BMI of 41.4 which would put her in the morbidly obese range. Im surprised as i wouldnt say 5st was impossible to lose, but shes in the poterntial range. She would only get it after a lot of consultations and trying other things though, hence whey they are trying the vlcd one imagines.Results, published in the British Journal of General Practice, showed that almost all patients lost weight – up to 30-40kg in some cases – with average losses after 14 weeks of 17kg and at least 33% of the 91 who started the study maintained more than a 15kg (two stones) loss for 12 months.
The Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network (SIGN), which develops evidence-based clinical practice guidelines for the NHS in Scotland, says severely-obese people should aim to lose over 15kg to control their medical problems.
Professor Mike Lean, a human nutrition expert in the School of Medicine, said: “This amount of weight loss is enough to reverse most cases of type 2 diabetes and approached the levels achieved by lap-band surgery, but is much cheaper and safer than surgery.
“It is also much more accessible. Weight loss surgery is only available for a tiny number of patients, and requires a great deal of training and back-up.
“Health economics analysis showed that each £1m spent on Counterweight Plus would result in about 360 severely obese patients losing over 15 kg, compared with only about 105 patients if the same £1m were spent on proving lap-band surgery.
“We need to ensure that we can maintain the weight loss for longer, but this is the only non-surgical method that can provide the 15-20 kg weight loss recommended to the NHS by SIGN for severe and complicated obese patients. With the valuable support we had from the Cambridge Weight Plan company it was very well received by GPs and their patients.”
So it looks like she is on the counterweight plus program, which uses the Cambidge diet for only a month compared to the possible 14 weeks. She is morbidly obese. Cambridge diet is nutritionally balanced.
Is what the NHS has to say about Cambidge diet.Cambridge diet
The Cambridge Weight Plans are based around buying and eating a range of meal-replacement products with the promise of rapid weight loss. There are six flexible diet plans ranging from 415 calories to 1,500 calories or more a day, depending on your weight loss goal. There is also a long-term weight management programme. The bars, soups, porridges and shakes can be used as your sole source of nutrition or together with low-calorie regular meals. While on the programme, you receive advice and support on healthy eating and exercise from a Cambridge adviser.
Pros:
Many people on very low calorie diets find the weight loss to be sudden and quite dramatic. The meal replacements are all nutritionally balanced, so you're likely to be getting all the vitamins and minerals you need, albeit not from real food.
Cons:
Initial side effects can include bad breath, a dry mouth, tiredness, dizziness, insomnia, nausea and constipation from cutting down on carbs and fibre. The hardest part of the plan is sticking to it. Giving up normal meals and swapping them for a snack bar or a shake can be boring and feel socially isolating. This isn't a plan you can stick to in the long term.
BDA verdict:
You need to like the meal replacement products to stay with the plan. Rapid weight loss can be motivating, but it is unsustainable. A very low calorie diet that involves eating 1,000 calories a day or fewer should not be followed for more than 12 continuous weeks. If you are eating fewer than 600 calories a day, you should have medical supervision.
After the initial diet they get full support on nutrition and food management for up to 2 years. I now dont think its as radical or as thoughtless as it comes across when the OP explains it. Its as a preventative measure to aboid the need for weight loss surgery for someone who has failed when using raditional dieting methods. Thats how she got morbidly obese. I'd lose it the normal way, but not everyone is the same.
Yeah maybe I haven't explained it properly, I'm not 100% sure what will be the next steps but thanks for clearing it up. Morbidly obese ergh harsh but so true lol.0 -
Are you going for weekly blood work or anything?
Also, what are they going to do after the 4 weeks? Have you seen an endocrinologist? And do they have you on medication for PCOS, like metformin.
Sorry I didn't see this. I'm not sure if I'll be going for weekly blood work.
No I haven't and no they pretty much told me I had it and sent me on my way
I've been trying for a kid but have had 3 miscarriages so they said I don't need medication because I don't have problems with getting pregnant. Not very helpful at all if I'm honest.. 0 -
ForestFairy022 wrote: »Also, I was only eating that little for 2 months, 4 weeks more than the OP. And I've gotten permanent damage from it. But the difference is I wasn't medically supervised I guess. I was being destructive.
Fairy sorry to hear that. We all do stupid things when we get desperate hope it all works out for you soon 0 -
Wow. If you ate high protein, low carb 1200 calorie diet plus exercise and eating your exercise calories, you would drop weight even faster since your metabolism would be in a higher gear. You also wouldn't atrophy and lose muscle, in fact muscle gains help burn calories.
This just sounds miserable compared to eating normal, healthy food and getting the same or better gains. But, it's your life, have at it. Good luck. Interested to see how this does for you. I can't see this being at all beneficial. I'll be eating my 1700-1800 high protein calories every day and loving it, thank you.
Thanks I'll give it a mention on my next check up
to be honest I'm more bothered not being able to have alcohol lol. I'll deffo keep everyone posted and promise to hold my hands up if it all goes to *kitten* lol 0 -
weezybeezy91 wrote: »Wow. If you ate high protein, low carb 1200 calorie diet plus exercise and eating your exercise calories, you would drop weight even faster since your metabolism would be in a higher gear. You also wouldn't atrophy and lose muscle, in fact muscle gains help burn calories.
This just sounds miserable compared to eating normal, healthy food and getting the same or better gains. But, it's your life, have at it. Good luck. Interested to see how this does for you. I can't see this being at all beneficial. I'll be eating my 1700-1800 high protein calories every day and loving it, thank you.
Thanks I'll give it a mention on my next check up to be honest I'm more bothered not being able to have alcohol lol. I'll deffo keep everyone posted and promise to hold my hands up if it all goes to *kitten* lol
Bakins929 gave you pretty bad advice lol.
Going high protein low carb... have fun with that - it's moderate protein/low carb/high fat for a reason.
You would drop weight faster... yes... but that weight is going to be mainly water weight as a decrease in carbs means you drop water weight and glycogen stores.
Also, your metabolism isn't going to 'pick up' - he is right in saying more muscle means more calories are burned... but lets be honest: you're not going to gain any muscle on a 1200 calorie diet which is LCHF and also, a lot of muscle is needed to burn a significant amount of calories.0 -
@weezybeezy91: I just want to comment that most posts here are from people that are concerned. While a VLCD should be fine under doctor supervision, what you're describing is different. Under doctor supervision means you go in every week or so and get checked out, blood tests, that sort of thing (maybe not blood tests, but your doctor should be monitoring you closely). The doctor shouldn't just give you the diet and say come back in a month. You haven't said what kind of follow-ups you are going to be doing with your doctor, nor what exactly your plan is for after the 4 weeks are over. I get that doing the liquid diet gives you better control over your calories, but here's the thing: if you weren't losing weight on 1000 calories of solid food but are on 1000 calories of liquids, something was wrong with your logging the solid foods. At the base level, calories are calories, be they liquid or solid. The nutritional value of those calories counts too and should be monitored to make sure you stay healthy, but if all you're doing is counting the calories, liquid vs. solid doesn't matter. A lot of people say they're logging correctly but really aren't and don't realize it. I got a huge surprise when I actually started weighing things correctly and found I wasn't logging 400-500 calories A DAY when I thought I was accurate. So after your 4 weeks are up, when you start phasing in solid food again, you need to make sure you START weighing EVERYTHING to log it. Learning to do that when you start back on solids and make it a habit. After a while, you'll start to retrain your brain and body into recognizing what a proper portion is and do better with estimating, but you have to be as EXACT as possible when you start or you'll just end up putting the weight back on.
On a personal note, a VLCD isn't necessary to 'kick-start' a diet, but if you're going to do it under a doctor's supervision, then whatever. If you can keep healthy during it and work to relearn your eating habits afterwards, then more power to ya. My main concern is that others will see it and try it in an unhealthy manner and make themselves sick. That's why VLCDs are frowned on here. Too many people try it on their own, and MFP tries to promote HEALTHY routes to weight loss, which a VLCD isn't.hannibalholt89 wrote: »hannibalholt89 wrote: »I don't think the doctor put her on this diet as an actual long term thing. These diets are primarily pre or post surgery procedures. It wouldn't make since to be on a liquid diet for long term when you can eat and actually be full. If you are eating the proper foods, you will get same nutrients, same macros, same cals. Your body will not react different at all just taking it in a different form. If your not losing weight eating actual food then you need to adjust your diet.
Understood, but what she describes is concerning. Yes, your body doesn't care if your calories are from liquid or solid, but if you're going with a liquid diet, you still have to vary it so you DO get all the nutrients as well as the calories. OP said she's mostly drinking milk? If a doctor prescribed this diet, I would think they would also suggest other things to add nutrients, powders or vitamins or whatnot. There's also the concern that OP doesn't seem to realize things that can happen AFTER she finishes it, which is information the doctor should have shared with her. Facts like once the liquid diet is over, she'll still have relearn eating habits or it's just going to come back. Granted, this is all coming through her, but based on what I've been reading, she sounds confused about some things, and at the very least she should bring up concerns with that doctor and discuss them.
Now, it's possible I'm misreading things, but this is what I'm seeing so far. That's why my advice is to get a second opinion instead of don't do it, which my knee-jerk reaction to someone saying they're going on a VLCD to 'kick-start' weight loss.
no i get exactly what your saying im not agreeing to the liquid diet with all do respect to her I think its the dumbest things ive ever heard of and most dangerous. What I was getting at was she made a point saying she tried to eat food and she doesnt lose weight but a liquid diet she says she does lose weight. Now lets just say she does get all the correct nutreints cals w/e from her liquid diet, I was just saying if its helping her lose weight so would food bc there is no difference. I saw her mention its milk mostly which i can tell she will definitely not get all her nutrients from that unless like you said she is adding some type of supplements.
Ah, I see what you're saying, sorry, I can be dense sometimes! Chances are, her logging of solid foods wasn't accurate and she didn't realize it. That seems to happen to a lot of people when they first start, me included.
I'm starting to think you're right. I'll be honest with you I've never weighed my food before so as soon as this is over I'll definitely be getting myself some scales. Thanks for all your advice I appreciate it and as soon as I know more about what's going to happen when this is up I'll let you know0 -
weezybeezy91 wrote: »Are you going for weekly blood work or anything?
Also, what are they going to do after the 4 weeks? Have you seen an endocrinologist? And do they have you on medication for PCOS, like metformin.
Sorry I didn't see this. I'm not sure if I'll be going for weekly blood work.
No I haven't and no they pretty much told me I had it and sent me on my way I've been trying for a kid but have had 3 miscarriages so they said I don't need medication because I don't have problems with getting pregnant. Not very helpful at all if I'm honest..
That just doesn't sit right. A medically supervised VLCD prior to surgery, and they aren't taking blood tests? And, you're not sure whether you will be doing weekly blood tests or not?
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Also I'm not going to be giving my personal information out. Why should I tell you my Dr's full name and surgery I go to? Bit personal if you ask me. Just accept it's legit.0
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weezybeezy91 wrote: »Are you going for weekly blood work or anything?
Also, what are they going to do after the 4 weeks? Have you seen an endocrinologist? And do they have you on medication for PCOS, like metformin.
Sorry I didn't see this. I'm not sure if I'll be going for weekly blood work.
No I haven't and no they pretty much told me I had it and sent me on my way I've been trying for a kid but have had 3 miscarriages so they said I don't need medication because I don't have problems with getting pregnant. Not very helpful at all if I'm honest..
That just doesn't sit right. A medically supervised VLCD prior to surgery, and they aren't taking blood tests? And, you're not sure whether you will be doing weekly blood tests or not?
I'm not going to surgery, well if I was it won't be until a years time and that's even if I get accepted. No I don't think I am getting blood tests as I'm nearly halfway through it anyway. Think I'm on my 9th day?0 -
NobodyPutsAmyInTheCorner wrote: »
And after the month? Then what? Back to over eating and all the weight comes back.
Sigh. These diets teach a person absolutely nothing about eating right. It's a quick fix wow look at the weight I've lost. Then it's "oooooh look a donut". Education not quick fixes are what is needed.
I've done VLCD's in the past. Not doctor monitored granted but even so. It taught me nothing and I regained the weight. So I cannot agree with this being a healthy way to lose weight. Doctor or nurse monitored. The OP deserves better than being set up for disappointment.
You didnt bother to read what I posted or you wouldnt have launched in. After the month then theres a medically supervised period of being reintroduced to solid food and healthy eating along with calorie control support for up to 2 years.
Not a quick fix and clearly they do teach her additiona weight control techniques instead of leaving her high and dry. You doing a VLCD where you taught yourself nothing is different from someone doing a medically supervised vlcd with support and people monitoring her progress. Not exactly setting her up for disappointment as you liked to think.
A healthy way to lose weight? Clearly its just not your way of losing weight, but for someone who is morbidly obese and has failed with other methods then its an alternatitive and a lot better than going for very drastic surgery.
Did you take the time to read any of the links about the studies and Professor Lean's findings? Certainly doesnt look like it.0 -
weezybeezy91 wrote: »Are you going for weekly blood work or anything?
Also, what are they going to do after the 4 weeks? Have you seen an endocrinologist? And do they have you on medication for PCOS, like metformin.
Sorry I didn't see this. I'm not sure if I'll be going for weekly blood work.
No I haven't and no they pretty much told me I had it and sent me on my way I've been trying for a kid but have had 3 miscarriages so they said I don't need medication because I don't have problems with getting pregnant. Not very helpful at all if I'm honest..
That just doesn't sit right. A medically supervised VLCD prior to surgery, and they aren't taking blood tests? And, you're not sure whether you will be doing weekly blood tests or not?
From the articles ive read they are an attempt to avoid surgery.0 -
tl;dr: I know you guys told me last week not to close my eyes and run through traffic across the street without looking to see if any cars were coming, but I did it anyway, and I MADE IT TO THE OTHER SIDE! Now I'm going to build on that success and keep running back and forth without looking. Looking both ways before crossing and only crossing at marked crosswalks doesn't work for everyone, and as long as I can find other people on the internet that have done it, surely it must work, right?
If you have a doctor keeping an eye on this situation, make sure they know what you're eating and that you're honest with them. If not, keep the number for one handy--You'll need it before too long.0 -
6502programmer wrote: »tl;dr: I know you guys told me last week not to close my eyes and run through traffic across the street without looking to see if any cars were coming, but I did it anyway, and I MADE IT TO THE OTHER SIDE! Now I'm going to build on that success and keep running back and forth without looking. Looking both ways before crossing and only crossing at marked crosswalks doesn't work for everyone, and as long as I can find other people on the internet that have done it, surely it must work, right?
If you have a doctor keeping an eye on this situation, make sure they know what you're eating and that you're honest with them. If not, keep the number for one handy--You'll need it before too long.
whats your point? In your opinion its dangerous? Do you know what it is?0 -
6502programmer wrote: »tl;dr: I know you guys told me last week not to close my eyes and run through traffic across the street without looking to see if any cars were coming, but I did it anyway, and I MADE IT TO THE OTHER SIDE! Now I'm going to build on that success and keep running back and forth without looking. Looking both ways before crossing and only crossing at marked crosswalks doesn't work for everyone, and as long as I can find other people on the internet that have done it, surely it must work, right?
If you have a doctor keeping an eye on this situation, make sure they know what you're eating and that you're honest with them. If not, keep the number for one handy--You'll need it before too long.
Lol I get what you're saying.0 -
IsaackGMOON wrote: »weezybeezy91 wrote: »Wow. If you ate high protein, low carb 1200 calorie diet plus exercise and eating your exercise calories, you would drop weight even faster since your metabolism would be in a higher gear. You also wouldn't atrophy and lose muscle, in fact muscle gains help burn calories.
This just sounds miserable compared to eating normal, healthy food and getting the same or better gains. But, it's your life, have at it. Good luck. Interested to see how this does for you. I can't see this being at all beneficial. I'll be eating my 1700-1800 high protein calories every day and loving it, thank you.
Thanks I'll give it a mention on my next check up to be honest I'm more bothered not being able to have alcohol lol. I'll deffo keep everyone posted and promise to hold my hands up if it all goes to *kitten* lol
Bakins929 gave you pretty bad advice lol.
Going high protein low carb... have fun with that - it's moderate protein/low carb/high fat for a reason.
You would drop weight faster... yes... but that weight is going to be mainly water weight as a decrease in carbs means you drop water weight and glycogen stores.
Also, your metabolism isn't going to 'pick up' - he is right in saying more muscle means more calories are burned... but lets be honest: you're not going to gain any muscle on a 1200 calorie diet which is LCHF and also, a lot of muscle is needed to burn a significant amount of calories.
Lol moon see this is what I mean! So confusing it's so hard to know what advice to take, who's right and who's wrong. I think for now I'll just try and be good and stick to what advice I've been given by the hospital. I will be noting all of this though as it does look like alot of you guys have had success and know what you're talking about a hell of a lot more than me.0
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