The low calorie liquid diet (LCLD) part 2

11213141517

Replies

  • Blueseraphchaos
    Blueseraphchaos Posts: 843 Member
    edited August 2015
    thorsmom01 wrote: »
    I started around the ops weight.I was miserable and hated the way I looked. I went to my doctor and told him I couldn't lose weight. He said ," your eating more then you think. Weight loss comes down to calories" so I had to face the facts , and stop making excuses. Finally , I ate at a reasonable yet responsible deficit. I enjoyed the foods I loved , and learned portion control. I weighed my foods on a food scale. I learned how to hit my macros and give my body the nutrients it needs .

    I'm now 135lbs. No surgery . No liquid diets . no fad diets. no mlm marketing products .

    It took hard work . I learned everything I needed for long term success.

    Often people who take the easy way out, end up back in the same situation again.

    i wanted to chime in with 2 things on this: 1. this isn't the easy way out that most people think it is, lol. that's why they end up in the situation they're in.

    and 2. i know at least 2 people who have had weight loss surgery that learned nothing from it and have regained all the weight. in fact, one person had it 3 times (she had lap-band surgery), but sheesh, once should be enough.

    my doctor offered it to me and i declined....i just said nope, if you can't figure out what is wrong with me, then i will figure everything out on my own. i was seeing a registered dietician who is also a doctor, and once we finally figured out what was wrong, the weight came off. slowly, but i'd rather slowly than never.

    almost 50 pounds down now, and about 25 to go....started at 217 lbs. i'm not perfect, i slip up, but i'm very glad i repeatedly declined weight loss surgery....the hard work is mostly more mental than physical. i could never do a liquid diet, although i understand that the doctors put you on it. but i learned from everything i went through without the nasty side effects of surgery.

    Glad you stayed clear of it, I hope I won't need it either. I'm more determined than I ever have been to do it on my own, fingers crossed!

    i have faith in you. you won't NEED it, you're already losing weight, right? that's the best motivation ever. seriously.

    i'm so glad i stayed away from the complications...my aunt had it, and i saw what she went through, although it has worked for her. the other 2 people i mentioned, it didn't work for because they didn't learn how to eat properly or care.

    these forums have a wealth of information. i know some people can come across as really nasty, but if you can get past that, you can learn a lot and avoid the surgery. and always be your own best advocate with your doctors...i know that US doctors are in it for the money, but like someone else said, they are also not always right. i'm going through that right now with my husband, although it's a heart condition with him. it's rough.

    i hope you decide to stick around and see how far you can go all by yourself with just this tool :)

    eta what's up with the grinning face on here? it's creepy.

    Lol it is kind of creepy. Yeah definitely, I try to stay positive seeing all the weight I've lost but it's hard when people say 'you do know it's just water right?' all comments like that are doing is just knocking me off a bit (even if it is true) but ergh I'm trying not to let it bother me, just shake it off and carry on ;)

    it's physically impossible that it's all water, being on so low calories. some of it is fat. i lost 35 lbs in 3 months...which was kind of a mistake, way too fast, but it obviously wasn't all water because it didn't come back. it's just that weight loss does slow down after the first couple weeks. (in my case, months, because i had no idea i was so active...oops)

    some of it may be muscle, but that can be fixed by weight lifting. well, after you get cleared...lol. i bet if you talked to your doctor and asked about trying to lose weight by yourself, without surgery, and using a food scale, they could help you figure out a good plan. after all, 1200 calories is 1200 calories, whether it comes from junk, liquid, whole foods, etc. the biggest eye-opener for me, seriously, was weighing my food and realizing how far off i was in my estimations.

    i've paid attention closely, though, and while i still weigh my foods, usually what i throw on the scale is almost dead-on in grams based on what i thought it was just eyeing it up. which will help when it comes to maintenance!

    eta: you can add me if you want...(not sure if you did or not....haven't checked anything and here i am, sitting in a bar letting my laptop charge before i go back to my college for orientation...lol)
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,878 Member
    loulou2006 wrote: »
    I haven't read every post on this thread, however I get the general idea by just reading a few. I say go for it if it makes you feel good and be positive about your future!! So many times I see such judge mental comments. I am sure someone (a person that is never wrong and who's sole job, on this earth, is to tell others how wrong they are) will find it necessary to respond with an angry comment. In the end... Is it really wrong to trade eating three Big Mac (go large) a day any less harmful than this liquid diet that makes the op feel better about herself and hopefully move toward better choices? Ok your turn, go ahead and attack.

    When did OP say she was eating three Big Macs a day before beginning this diet?

    She was just giving an example

    It's a silly example based on a false dichotomy. Either eat three Big Macs a day or live on milk?

    What she meant was it's better than eating unhealthily, she just used big Macs as an example of unhealthy eating. I still get all my vitamins and if anything I honestly do feel better. Sounds pathetic but I actually managed to walk up the stairs and put my shoes on for the first time in ages without feeling out of breath.

    I'm not sure what you mean by eating "unhealthily," but if your calorie consumption is so low that you are being advised not to engage in physical activities, I can't imagine this is much better.

  • dubird
    dubird Posts: 1,849 Member
    999tigger wrote: »
    dubird wrote: »

    Yes, we in the US pay to go to the doctor. But here's the thing: doctors can be wrong too. Going to a second doctor when you've been diagnosed with a serious condition or are being told to go through a serious medical procedure should be allowed. Doctors in the UK probably won't recommend something to someone because it'll get them more money, but even without that, doctors can be wrong. They may not be current on whatever it is they diagnosing you as or their opinion might not be the best course for you. For general things, yeah, one doctor is fine. But if I was being considered for weight loss surgery or some other major medical procedure that wasn't an emergency, I would want a second opinion. Maybe there's an alternative that would work better that the first doctor doesn't know about. It does happen. Not trying to put down doctors; there's a LOT of medical information and GPs don't have the time to read up on everything. That's why there are specialists, and even specialists don't always keep caught up all the time.

    You cna ask for a second opinion in the UK nothing to stop that.
    The problem is you are relying on the information given by the OP, who has admitted she isnt the best at explaining herself. Getting weight loss surgery on the NHS isnt easy and its also expensive, which is another reason its difficul to get. What we do know is that she is morbidly obese, so at least meets one of the criteria if she wanted to pursue it. The alternative to weight loss surgery is one of the things she is trying now.

    Yes, I am going on what she says, which I'm reading as her doing this diet just based on what one doctor said to do. My point is that anything that will drastically change your life should be double checked by a second opinion, just in case.
  • 999tigger
    999tigger Posts: 5,236 Member
    dubird wrote: »
    999tigger wrote: »
    dubird wrote: »

    Yes, we in the US pay to go to the doctor. But here's the thing: doctors can be wrong too. Going to a second doctor when you've been diagnosed with a serious condition or are being told to go through a serious medical procedure should be allowed. Doctors in the UK probably won't recommend something to someone because it'll get them more money, but even without that, doctors can be wrong. They may not be current on whatever it is they diagnosing you as or their opinion might not be the best course for you. For general things, yeah, one doctor is fine. But if I was being considered for weight loss surgery or some other major medical procedure that wasn't an emergency, I would want a second opinion. Maybe there's an alternative that would work better that the first doctor doesn't know about. It does happen. Not trying to put down doctors; there's a LOT of medical information and GPs don't have the time to read up on everything. That's why there are specialists, and even specialists don't always keep caught up all the time.

    You cna ask for a second opinion in the UK nothing to stop that.
    The problem is you are relying on the information given by the OP, who has admitted she isnt the best at explaining herself. Getting weight loss surgery on the NHS isnt easy and its also expensive, which is another reason its difficul to get. What we do know is that she is morbidly obese, so at least meets one of the criteria if she wanted to pursue it. The alternative to weight loss surgery is one of the things she is trying now.

    Yes, I am going on what she says, which I'm reading as her doing this diet just based on what one doctor said to do. My point is that anything that will drastically change your life should be double checked by a second opinion, just in case.

    The other point I thought of was that a team of people would have to sanction weight loss surgery niot just her GP but the surgeon as well so there wuld be lots of checks and they would refuse if its unsuitable. We dont really know the OPs history, shes excited because shes lost quickly, but ofc it should be quick considering its a vlcd. I just think theres a lot of incomplete info which might make it easier to understand. Presumably if the OP has failed at all other methods and she is at risk, then getting rid of the weight is a priority to avoid diabetes, it then gives her a chance to go back to more traditional methods. I'd be surprised if she wasnt monitored and it wasnt a full program because she claims they are specialists, they arent in it for money, nit they wouldnt hold themselves open to being sued for no reason. Wouldnt make sense. If the liquid diet helps remove surgery as an option and she goes back o long term weight loss and traditional methods hen good luck to her.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    I thin you might be someone who is demotivated really quickly with your being a bit sad that the initial loss won't all be fat. If you're to be successful you must not let these things derail you, there will be weeks you lose absolutely nothing and you can't allow that to throw you off and throw in the towel. I can go three weeks without a loss but I know I'm doing all the right things and it's just the nature of the beast, it will come off eventually.

    Along with the food scale, buy yourself a tape measure so you can track your body measurements too. Don't be a slave to the scale. Be realistic with your goals.

    And whilst you're on this slightly bonkers liquid diet research research research. Get all of the information you need to be a success, read the success stories, look into progressive walking/running and resistance training programmes. Give yourself the best possible chance of success.
  • 29_adjacent
    29_adjacent Posts: 104 Member
    edited August 2015
    dubird wrote: »
    I love my Doctor and would be happy to recommend any one in Lincoln, NE see, Michael Sayers MD. I am happy with Bryan Medical Centers, the hospitals were I have been treated. I love my Physical Therapist, Danna Smith at Center for Spine and Sports Medicine. It must really be different there in the UK, here in the US giving out the names of great medical providers is encouraged by the medical providers. I am shocked that anyone thinks it would be imprudent to share the names of professionals and facilities who provide medical care.

    I imagine that's because they want extra business, right? That's not how our healthcare works in the UK. We don't "shop around" for our healthcare - we just go to one of our local GPs/hospitals. We don't have TV commercials for cancer drugs etc telling us to ask our doctor to prescribe that particular drug - our doctors prescribe what they think is best for us. We don't pay for most healthcare (there are exceptions like prescriptions from your GP, although those are also 'free' in Scotland where I live) in the same way people in the US do. We 'pay' through our taxes and then get 'free' healthcare when we need it - no having to worry about finding thousands of pounds to pay for cancer treatment etc should we need it or having insurance to cover it. I don't see what the benefit would be of the OP giving out the name of her doctor/nurse? How would everyone here knowing the name of some doctor/nurse in some hospital somewhere in the UK make any difference?


    Yes, we in the US pay to go to the doctor. But here's the thing: doctors can be wrong too. Going to a second doctor when you've been diagnosed with a serious condition or are being told to go through a serious medical procedure should be allowed. Doctors in the UK probably won't recommend something to someone because it'll get them more money, but even without that, doctors can be wrong. They may not be current on whatever it is they diagnosing you as or their opinion might not be the best course for you. For general things, yeah, one doctor is fine. But if I was being considered for weight loss surgery or some other major medical procedure that wasn't an emergency, I would want a second opinion. Maybe there's an alternative that would work better that the first doctor doesn't know about. It does happen. Not trying to put down doctors; there's a LOT of medical information and GPs don't have the time to read up on everything. That's why there are specialists, and even specialists don't always keep caught up all the time.

    Oh totally doctors can be wrong/ill-informed/etc. But just because we don't 'pay' for our healthcare in the UK doesn't mean we have to just accept whatever the first doctor we see says - we can ask for a second opinion and/or we can ask to be referred to a specialist (I have done this myself and was not refused). We can change GPs if we're not happy with ours and we can also pay for private healthcare if we so choose.

  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    thorsmom01 wrote: »
    I started around the ops weight.I was miserable and hated the way I looked. I went to my doctor and told him I couldn't lose weight. He said ," your eating more then you think. Weight loss comes down to calories" so I had to face the facts , and stop making excuses. Finally , I ate at a reasonable yet responsible deficit. I enjoyed the foods I loved , and learned portion control. I weighed my foods on a food scale. I learned how to hit my macros and give my body the nutrients it needs .

    I'm now 135lbs. No surgery . No liquid diets . no fad diets. no mlm marketing products .

    It took hard work . I learned everything I needed for long term success.

    Often people who take the easy way out, end up back in the same situation again.

    i wanted to chime in with 2 things on this: 1. this isn't the easy way out that most people think it is, lol. that's why they end up in the situation they're in.

    and 2. i know at least 2 people who have had weight loss surgery that learned nothing from it and have regained all the weight. in fact, one person had it 3 times (she had lap-band surgery), but sheesh, once should be enough.

    my doctor offered it to me and i declined....i just said nope, if you can't figure out what is wrong with me, then i will figure everything out on my own. i was seeing a registered dietician who is also a doctor, and once we finally figured out what was wrong, the weight came off. slowly, but i'd rather slowly than never.

    almost 50 pounds down now, and about 25 to go....started at 217 lbs. i'm not perfect, i slip up, but i'm very glad i repeatedly declined weight loss surgery....the hard work is mostly more mental than physical. i could never do a liquid diet, although i understand that the doctors put you on it. but i learned from everything i went through without the nasty side effects of surgery.

    Glad you stayed clear of it, I hope I won't need it either. I'm more determined than I ever have been to do it on my own, fingers crossed!

    i have faith in you. you won't NEED it, you're already losing weight, right? that's the best motivation ever. seriously.

    i'm so glad i stayed away from the complications...my aunt had it, and i saw what she went through, although it has worked for her. the other 2 people i mentioned, it didn't work for because they didn't learn how to eat properly or care.

    these forums have a wealth of information. i know some people can come across as really nasty, but if you can get past that, you can learn a lot and avoid the surgery. and always be your own best advocate with your doctors...i know that US doctors are in it for the money, but like someone else said, they are also not always right. i'm going through that right now with my husband, although it's a heart condition with him. it's rough.

    i hope you decide to stick around and see how far you can go all by yourself with just this tool :)

    eta what's up with the grinning face on here? it's creepy.

    Lol it is kind of creepy. Yeah definitely, I try to stay positive seeing all the weight I've lost but it's hard when people say 'you do know it's just water right?' all comments like that are doing is just knocking me off a bit (even if it is true) but ergh I'm trying not to let it bother me, just shake it off and carry on ;)

    it's physically impossible that it's all water, being on so low calories. some of it is fat. i lost 35 lbs in 3 months...which was kind of a mistake, way too fast, but it obviously wasn't all water because it didn't come back. it's just that weight loss does slow down after the first couple weeks. (in my case, months, because i had no idea i was so active...oops)

    some of it may be muscle, but that can be fixed by weight lifting. well, after you get cleared...lol. i bet if you talked to your doctor and asked about trying to lose weight by yourself, without surgery, and using a food scale, they could help you figure out a good plan. after all, 1200 calories is 1200 calories, whether it comes from junk, liquid, whole foods, etc. the biggest eye-opener for me, seriously, was weighing my food and realizing how far off i was in my estimations.

    i've paid attention closely, though, and while i still weigh my foods, usually what i throw on the scale is almost dead-on in grams based on what i thought it was just eyeing it up. which will help when it comes to maintenance!

    eta: you can add me if you want...(not sure if you did or not....haven't checked anything and here i am, sitting in a bar letting my laptop charge before i go back to my college for orientation...lol)

    Wow I'll be honest that is ridiculously fast! Amazed/happy you didn't put it all back on too. Yeah weighing foods sounds like a great idea, I bet you I'll be way off too. Sure I'll give you an add :)
  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    I thin you might be someone who is demotivated really quickly with your being a bit sad that the initial loss won't all be fat. If you're to be successful you must not let these things derail you, there will be weeks you lose absolutely nothing and you can't allow that to throw you off and throw in the towel. I can go three weeks without a loss but I know I'm doing all the right things and it's just the nature of the beast, it will come off eventually.

    Along with the food scale, buy yourself a tape measure so you can track your body measurements too. Don't be a slave to the scale. Be realistic with your goals.

    And whilst you're on this slightly bonkers liquid diet research research research. Get all of the information you need to be a success, read the success stories, look into progressive walking/running and resistance training programmes. Give yourself the best possible chance of success.

    Thank you for you're advice and thanks for making me feel more positive about losing weight. 17 days to go and I'll be joining everyone with the weighing food :) definitely will get a tape measure too as like you said, your weight can mean you've lost 3 different things but measurements are measurements :)
  • Blueseraphchaos
    Blueseraphchaos Posts: 843 Member
    thorsmom01 wrote: »
    I started around the ops weight.I was miserable and hated the way I looked. I went to my doctor and told him I couldn't lose weight. He said ," your eating more then you think. Weight loss comes down to calories" so I had to face the facts , and stop making excuses. Finally , I ate at a reasonable yet responsible deficit. I enjoyed the foods I loved , and learned portion control. I weighed my foods on a food scale. I learned how to hit my macros and give my body the nutrients it needs .

    I'm now 135lbs. No surgery . No liquid diets . no fad diets. no mlm marketing products .

    It took hard work . I learned everything I needed for long term success.

    Often people who take the easy way out, end up back in the same situation again.

    i wanted to chime in with 2 things on this: 1. this isn't the easy way out that most people think it is, lol. that's why they end up in the situation they're in.

    and 2. i know at least 2 people who have had weight loss surgery that learned nothing from it and have regained all the weight. in fact, one person had it 3 times (she had lap-band surgery), but sheesh, once should be enough.

    my doctor offered it to me and i declined....i just said nope, if you can't figure out what is wrong with me, then i will figure everything out on my own. i was seeing a registered dietician who is also a doctor, and once we finally figured out what was wrong, the weight came off. slowly, but i'd rather slowly than never.

    almost 50 pounds down now, and about 25 to go....started at 217 lbs. i'm not perfect, i slip up, but i'm very glad i repeatedly declined weight loss surgery....the hard work is mostly more mental than physical. i could never do a liquid diet, although i understand that the doctors put you on it. but i learned from everything i went through without the nasty side effects of surgery.

    Glad you stayed clear of it, I hope I won't need it either. I'm more determined than I ever have been to do it on my own, fingers crossed!

    i have faith in you. you won't NEED it, you're already losing weight, right? that's the best motivation ever. seriously.

    i'm so glad i stayed away from the complications...my aunt had it, and i saw what she went through, although it has worked for her. the other 2 people i mentioned, it didn't work for because they didn't learn how to eat properly or care.

    these forums have a wealth of information. i know some people can come across as really nasty, but if you can get past that, you can learn a lot and avoid the surgery. and always be your own best advocate with your doctors...i know that US doctors are in it for the money, but like someone else said, they are also not always right. i'm going through that right now with my husband, although it's a heart condition with him. it's rough.

    i hope you decide to stick around and see how far you can go all by yourself with just this tool :)

    eta what's up with the grinning face on here? it's creepy.

    Lol it is kind of creepy. Yeah definitely, I try to stay positive seeing all the weight I've lost but it's hard when people say 'you do know it's just water right?' all comments like that are doing is just knocking me off a bit (even if it is true) but ergh I'm trying not to let it bother me, just shake it off and carry on ;)

    it's physically impossible that it's all water, being on so low calories. some of it is fat. i lost 35 lbs in 3 months...which was kind of a mistake, way too fast, but it obviously wasn't all water because it didn't come back. it's just that weight loss does slow down after the first couple weeks. (in my case, months, because i had no idea i was so active...oops)

    some of it may be muscle, but that can be fixed by weight lifting. well, after you get cleared...lol. i bet if you talked to your doctor and asked about trying to lose weight by yourself, without surgery, and using a food scale, they could help you figure out a good plan. after all, 1200 calories is 1200 calories, whether it comes from junk, liquid, whole foods, etc. the biggest eye-opener for me, seriously, was weighing my food and realizing how far off i was in my estimations.

    i've paid attention closely, though, and while i still weigh my foods, usually what i throw on the scale is almost dead-on in grams based on what i thought it was just eyeing it up. which will help when it comes to maintenance!

    eta: you can add me if you want...(not sure if you did or not....haven't checked anything and here i am, sitting in a bar letting my laptop charge before i go back to my college for orientation...lol)

    Wow I'll be honest that is ridiculously fast! Amazed/happy you didn't put it all back on too. Yeah weighing foods sounds like a great idea, I bet you I'll be way off too. Sure I'll give you an add :)

    i've learned a lot, that's probably the only reason i didn't put it back on. i still have some to go, so i'm still weighing foods...but i've been pretty slack and maintaining instead of losing lately, or just not losing as fast as i have mfp set to...lol
  • samhennings
    samhennings Posts: 443 Member
    yesimpson wrote: »

    Third Brit who is genuinely shocked that the NHS have even floated the option of surgery as well.

    Im only on page 6 so no doubt this has been covered - a lot of hospitals get paid for what they do. There is a going rate on various operations, and so it is possible they were trying to make a profit as some of the americans in the thread suggested.

    The NHS is free to us Brits, but the way it is run the various hospital trusts (incl private places that get sent NHS "work") are in it to make money.

    Ive even seen one trust trying to sell a stupid spreadsheet with a pretty graph to another for thousands and thousand of pounds!
  • IsaackGMOON
    IsaackGMOON Posts: 3,358 Member
    yesimpson wrote: »

    Third Brit who is genuinely shocked that the NHS have even floated the option of surgery as well.

    Im only on page 6 so no doubt this has been covered - a lot of hospitals get paid for what they do. There is a going rate on various operations, and so it is possible they were trying to make a profit as some of the americans in the thread suggested.

    The NHS is free to us Brits, but the way it is run the various hospital trusts (incl private places that get sent NHS "work") are in it to make money.

    Ive even seen one trust trying to sell a stupid spreadsheet with a pretty graph to another for thousands and thousand of pounds!

    Yeah... the NHS is pretty shabby with the whole nutrition/weight loss scene...

    I had a doctor start shouting at me yesterday saying "A 19 YEAR OLD MALE HAVING WHEY PROTEIN IS NOT NORMAL, STOP IT"... "WEIGHTLIFTING STUNTS GROWTH - DON'T COME BACK TO ME"... and then he said I'd be on steroids by 21...

    then I walked out...

    RIP NHS
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
    It's been a little over 2.5 months. I'm hoping @weezybeezy91 has an update for how this diet is going.
  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    edited October 2015
    auddii wrote: »
    It's been a little over 2.5 months. I'm hoping @weezybeezy91 has an update for how this diet is going.

    Went really well. I lost a over a stone and then was put on to the food reintroduction plan where I was allowed 1200 calories a day, I put a little bit on but had lost it again and now I'm on the general food plan where I'm having 1500 calories a day including exercise. went on holiday and put on some again but I am losing slowly but surely so altogether I've lost 1 stone 10lb. Unfortunately I got this app back in 2013 so it says I've gained 9lb but promise that's not the case lol
  • QueenKristine77
    QueenKristine77 Posts: 67 Member
    it doesn't sound like it went well if you gained it right back...SMH
  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    it doesn't sound like it went well if you gained it right back...SMH

    I said a little bit, or do you need glasses???
  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    it doesn't sound like it went well if you gained it right back...SMH

    I said a little bit, or do you need glasses???
    it doesn't sound like it went well if you gained it right back...SMH

    Why are you so desperate to make me feel bad about putting on a couple of pounds then losing that plus more??!! Are you that desperate to make yourself feel better? Its really pathetic
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,465 Member
    @weezybeezy91 I hated my medically supervised VLCD (liquid) diet, and could hardly wait to go off it. Never again. But I am happy to hear it has worked for you. The small rebound, which I am sure was explained to you, is normal. I offer my unreserved congratulations.
  • BZAH10
    BZAH10 Posts: 5,588 Member
    @weezybeezy91, I give you credit for coming back and being honest about your experience. Regardless of what you said in your update someone here will feel the need to criticize. It's the way of the internet.
  • VeryKatie
    VeryKatie Posts: 5,867 Member
    edited October 2015
    .
  • Beezyweez
    Beezyweez Posts: 144 Member
    jgnatca wrote: »
    @weezybeezy91 I hated my medically supervised VLCD (liquid) diet, and could hardly wait to go off it. Never again. But I am happy to hear it has worked for you. The small rebound, which I am sure was explained to you, is normal. I offer my unreserved congratulations.

    Towards the end it was so hard so I can understand! Thank you hun :) I'm glad I'm now losing at a steady place, the way these guys were going on I was so sure I'd put it all back on but with hard work and determination I've managed it sort of lol. Good luck to you on your journey :)
This discussion has been closed.